why I left kungfu

[Tant01]

I've found (Pinyin) to be a little too intimidating... I'd have no idea how to pronounce the sylables of a word let alone multiple sylables to impart meaning outside of the most basic THINGS (to do).

Is there even a word for it? LOL

I wanted to find "stinky flower" a while ago but settled for "potted plant"...

[jubaji]

there are fewer grammar rules.

Hmmm...not really.

[Tom Yum]

This post is dedicated to Sherwin C... lol

[Tom Yum]

YouTube - 1980's Taiwan Full Contact Tournament (2of6)

punches and kicks are pretty terrible but some sensational takedowns, sweeps and throws by the guy in yellow. Especially the first one!

I think i'm pretty much debating myself in this thread by now

Seems like shuai jiao is the real heart and soul of KF in my opinion. Seems to be the only stuff working in these vids anyway.

Sorry, I stepped out. Vids are good, but don't show everything.

Knife hand strike
YouTube - Jay Lee OWNS!!

If I mentioned someone performing this technique against a hardened thug, I'd probably have been dismissed if I didn't have video. By that logic, porn doesn't exist.

Anywho, I know boxing, muaythai, jujitsu and MMA sports are good, but I also know there's other styles out there that are too.

Its like studying English or Chinese.

Everyone speaks English. It only has 26 letters to the alphabet. Its easy to put words together and begin speaking but you've got to follow grammatical rules. You can put the language to use with minimal time (assuming proper instruction)

For instance, put a sentence together:

I'm going to the store.

Learning Chinese is more pain staking - you have to practice character strokes, in a certain order and it takes alot longer to be functional but after you've put in the time - its just as fluid, there are fewer grammar rules but it meets the same purpose - communication.

You could say (in mandarin)

I store go (wo shangdian qu)
I go store (wo qu shangdian)
store I go (shangdian wo qu)

Like wise, combat sports are easy to learn and quick to apply. They get a certain job done. Gong-fu, when taught by a qualified, combat experienced instructor takes more time investment to produce a fighter but you've got alot of tools alot aren't familiar with - if you want to see what its like, ask KOTF to hook you up someone in your area.

[kiddbjj]

why would i let him go if he taps? If anything the adrenalin would make you crank harder I would think. Plenty of MMA matches on tape where the ref has to force people to let go of the submission cause the other guy has either passed out or is tapping like crazy before his arm goes.

Depends on the situation and how determined you are to damage the person.

[kiddbjj]

YouTube - 1980's Taiwan Full Contact Tournament (2of6)

punches and kicks are pretty terrible but some sensational takedowns, sweeps and throws by the guy in yellow. Especially the first one!

I think i'm pretty much debating myself in this thread by now

Seems like shuai jiao is the real heart and soul of KF in my opinion. Seems to be the only stuff working in these vids anyway.

[kiddbjj]

YouTube - 1986 Chengdu Leitai

nice takedowns 2:00 and 3:30, otherwise sloppy.

[mellow]

tom yum - i think you make some good points, but is it really even possible to ever train for those destruction techniques. I mean you can never really gouge someone in the eye full force at training and it requires your partner to be fairly compliant and still so there are no accidents so are you really learning anything at all so far a motor memory goes? I would say probably not... same thing goes with throwing people on their head etc. Although the wrestlers do practice suplexes and I swear I would NEVER participate practicing that technique, the risk is too great.

Destruction techniques in BJJ are another matter I think. The difference is that you only need to apply a little more pressure or extend the hip a little further than you would when rolling in class. Eg. normally your partner would tap out for an armbar when your hips are about 50% extended behind their elbow. To finish the full technique all you need to do is 1) ignore them tapping out and 2) extend your hips as far as you can. Snap crackle pop. Broken arm. There's footage on youtube of it happening in some grappling comps and MMA cause. So to me these are definately trainable compared to eye gouges, or tiger claws to throats etc.

Look I must appologise, i never meant to get down on all of kung fu. KF is simply so broad with so many styles that to bad mouth the whole thing is a bit unfair. I guess my gripe is more with the Shaolin style that you see in China these days. I have no issue with Sanda or Shuai Jiao, these guys can use what they train. I still think forms are useless for training fighting technique. I think many applications that are being taught are done so in a manner that clearly demonstrates a lack of pressure testing. Just search 'kung fu applications' on you tube and you'll see a lot of tripe with a few bits of gold peppered through.

What if you are on the street, you a guy in an armbar, and he taps out? You let him go? Would you let him go since isn't that how you train?

[kiddbjj]

was reading through some of my old ma magazines this afternoon and found something interesting that related to this thread...

It was an article written by the late Wing Chun Master Jim Fung who had a school in Australia. The article stated that his master, a closed door student of Yip Man, was famous in Hong Kong for being undefeated in challenge matches. It stated that these matches had "relatively few rules" and were the closest thing possible to real fighting......

So here we have evidence from a Wing Chun master stating categorically that his master not only participated in challenge matches (ie. the "duelling" that you guys seem so dead against because it;s not real fighting), but also that they were of the belief that this was the closest thing to real fighting one could experience. SO how is this any different to getting kung fu guys to participate in MMA these days? And it also shows that the ones that got their asses handed to them in the early UFCs were only doing what their forebears had done, but with limited success.

I rest my case

[kiddbjj]

tom yum - i think you make some good points, but is it really even possible to ever train for those destruction techniques. I mean you can never really gouge someone in the eye full force at training and it requires your partner to be fairly compliant and still so there are no accidents so are you really learning anything at all so far a motor memory goes? I would say probably not... same thing goes with throwing people on their head etc. Although the wrestlers do practice suplexes and I swear I would NEVER participate practicing that technique, the risk is too great.

Destruction techniques in BJJ are another matter I think. The difference is that you only need to apply a little more pressure or extend the hip a little further than you would when rolling in class. Eg. normally your partner would tap out for an armbar when your hips are about 50% extended behind their elbow. To finish the full technique all you need to do is 1) ignore them tapping out and 2) extend your hips as far as you can. Snap crackle pop. Broken arm. There's footage on youtube of it happening in some grappling comps and MMA cause. So to me these are definately trainable compared to eye gouges, or tiger claws to throats etc.

Look I must appologise, i never meant to get down on all of kung fu. KF is simply so broad with so many styles that to bad mouth the whole thing is a bit unfair. I guess my gripe is more with the Shaolin style that you see in China these days. I have no issue with Sanda or Shuai Jiao, these guys can use what they train. I still think forms are useless for training fighting technique. I think many applications that are being taught are done so in a manner that clearly demonstrates a lack of pressure testing. Just search 'kung fu applications' on you tube and you'll see a lot of tripe with a few bits of gold peppered through.

[Tom Yum]

i think kung fu needs to blend more of the techniques from san shou into their regular kung fu practice. maybe some schools are now but when i did kung fu they were kept fairly separate, almost as if to say, here is kung fu, and here is a ring sport we also practice.
I think the kung fu was practiced in the same way san shou is then youd have something evolving.
in the mean time im afraid i agree with the OP, talk is cheap and its on KF guys to finally find something on youtube or make something that shows it in action.
i just think kung fu isnt trained right ANYMORE and thats why its weaker than it used to be.

From what I understand, you can't use all of the fists while sparring and I know this is going to sound like a cop out, but you can't practice spear hands, sword hands, wrist strikes etc - that when landed on certain parts of the body can cause serious injury.

Sounds like the art is too deadly for the ring - in actuality, some techniques are too deadly for the ring, not the art itself - which is why gongfu has held Sanda/Sanshou competitions since the 70's and 80's.

Its become big in the 90's because of the improvement of the style from more shuaijiao and muaythai cross training. Its become more popular because of the internet - Cung le and Liu Hailong are more common names in the fight sport world.

Same could be said of Jujitsu - you're not going to see people attempt a neck breaking move or hold onto a choke/strangulation much longer after someone's gone unconscious, edit their throws so that their opponent lands on their head etc.. Instead they work on takedowns, gaining control, capitalizing on the other players mistakes, getting leverage and submitting the oponent. Keep in mind, jujitsu was intended to kill or severly disable the enemy if attacked without their sword (or in modern times, rifle/pistol etc.)

Sanda/Sanshou is a sport art, everybit as deadly as muaythai/kyokushin/savate/sambo and other full-contact combat sports. Its a uniform way that allows gongfu practitioners to sharpen their attributes and compete.

[Ghost]

i think kung fu needs to blend more of the techniques from san shou into their regular kung fu practice. maybe some schools are now but when i did kung fu they were kept fairly separate, almost as if to say, here is kung fu, and here is a ring sport we also practice.
I think the kung fu was practiced in the same way san shou is then youd have something evolving.
in the mean time im afraid i agree with the OP, talk is cheap and its on KF guys to finally find something on youtube or make something that shows it in action.
i just think kung fu isnt trained right ANYMORE and thats why its weaker than it used to be.

[kingoftheforest]

Can we get this back on topic please? Knifethrower, I really don't want to hear about your personal rendition of Brokeback Mountain, so can it with the talk about strapons and so forth.

Didn't realize that trailer parks and pony tails fit into why kiddBjj left KF.

I'd love to hear that story.

[mellow]

(sigh)

the early UFCs allowed everything except for eye gouging and fish hooking. Even groin strikes were allowed but incurred a monetary penalty, so yes it was duelling but it was still rough fighting.

The fact is that combat sports people and MMA people have PROVEN what they can do time and time again. There's hours of stuff on You Tube, DVD's etc.

The onus of proof therefore lies with the KF crowd to prove what they purport to be able to do instead of hiding behind lineage, so called science and stories about masters that are now dust and bones.

What exactly do they have to prove? Or more specifically, what "Kung Fu" techniques do they have to prove work?

[kiddbjj]

fire cobra - i would definately believe that the Chinese fighters where tough back in the 50's, but the key point you've highlighted (whether you intended to or not) is that these KF men where willing to put their style and ego to the test by actually fighting in the ring. So through this they would have determined what worked and what didn't and would have altered their training to suit. And AMAZINGLY (sarcasm intended) they did this by "duelling" or "sports fighting" or whatever you guys like to call it. I'm sure if these Chinese fighters were beating the Thai fighters all the Shaolin nut-huggers here would be claiming it as evidence that KF is the goods despite the wins occuring in a "sports fight"...

As for the other comment about mobile phone cameras on the 12th and 13th Century battlefields....that;s exactly my point about you lot hiding behind dead people and ancient legends. People still have 2 arms and 2 legs, so if that stuff worked then it should work now.