why I left kungfu

[jubaji]

All CMA guys should train like the MMA guys and there is no argument about that. But there are something that CMA can offer that others don't. there are:

- bridge building concept.
- special designed training equipment.
- power training.
- speed training.
- black hands (illegal moves in sport).
- ...

And you are trying to say that ONLY CMA have these things?

[csc]

Bridge building? Sounds like something that's probably not relevant to the tactical aspect of fighting, but please explain.

It just like the sword fight that you

- touch your sword on your opponent's sword,
- temporary press his sword to a position that won't threaten you,
- bounce his sword away, and
- move in and attack.

Apparently, you've never trained in MMA.

May be you should look into some traditional CMA training equipment such as:

- single head weight bar,
- double heads weight bar,
- stone lock,
- weight pulley,
- Gon rotation.
- belt cracking,
- pole hanging,
- human flag,
- stick twisting,
- cane bundle twisting,
- cane bundle training,
- huge brick workout,
- single leg uphill hopping with pole,
- square bag throwing,
- long bag training,
- brick twisting,
- basket carrying,
- ...

Power/Speed training? Are you kidding me??

There are some special training methods that existed in CMA long time ago. Today people think that "Kelly Bell" is new idea. It's no different from the "stone lock" that people used to train thousand years ago. Some Judo guy also think that "bicycle tube pulling" is new idea. It's no different from the "weight pulley" that people trained in the ancient time.

Some equipment training that I'm talking about can be seen in the following clips. There are quite unique IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moQ5cBHK2u0&eurl=http://search.yahoo.com/search%3Fp%3Dshuai%2Bjiao%2Btraining%2Bequipment%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501-s%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUT&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3eb740pyiE&feature=related

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

[Tom Yum]

All CMA guys should train like the MMA guys and there is no argument about that. But there are something that CMA can offer that others don't. there are:

- bridge building concept.
- special designed training equipment.
- power training.
- speed training.
- black hands (illegal moves in sport).
- ...

Bridge building? Sounds like something that's probably not relevant to the tactical aspect of fighting, but please explain.

Special Designed training equipment - ok, so the wooden dummy is unique as are Japanese qishi (weighted sticks).

Power/Speed training? Are you kidding me?? MMA fighter use heavy bags to develop power in their strikes - the kind of power that knocks people out every day. Speed training? Swivel bags, speed bags, sprints, bob and weave drills, 1 sec focus mitt drills. Apparently, you've never trained in MMA.

Black Hands - ok, I can agree with you there. Illegal moves are good.

[jubaji]

......................................................

[csc]

MMA are the road to travel.

All CMA guys should train like the MMA guys and there is no argument about that. But there are something that CMA can offer that others don't. there are:

- bridge building concept.
- special designed training equipment.
- power training.
- speed training.
- black hands (illegal moves in sport).
- ...

[fire cobra]

According to the article the first encounter happened in 1958

OK as I said I never read all the article.

[Jiujitsu77]

According to the article the first encounter happened in 1958

[fire cobra]

Actually kung fu didn't fare much better in the past either.
Here is an article from the 50's showing Kung Fu vs Muay Thai.
index6d

Actually I think you will find that article is about the famous team of Hong Kong chinese boxers that went to Thailand in the 1970s and got well beat.(I didnt read it all as I remember it happening at the time)

My teachers teacher fought in the 1950s,thats the era of Chinese boxers he said were good fighters.

[Jiujitsu77]

I havent read all this thread but get the general jist from the OP.

I would like mention something that my teachers teacher(Im in Muay Thai) Pol Prapadaeng(a very famous boxer in Thailand years ago) told him,he said that years ago(in the 1950s) he used to fight Chinese Boxers and that they were very good,Pol Prapadaeng had over 350 matches so Its fair to say he knew what he was talking about!.

The problem is in the modern era Most Chinese Gung Fu styles dont fight anyone anymore so its mainly just theory and exercise they are practicing,no real timing in their applications etc.

Personally I can see some real good applications in styles such as Choy Lee Fut and Hung Gar,I think if a fighter was to make a real study of these arts they could develop some real fighting skills that would be useable in any fighting enviroment.

Actually kung fu didn't fare much better in the past either.
Here is an article from the 50's showing Kung Fu vs Muay Thai.
index6d

[kingoftheforest]

I never really went looking for Kong-fu... What little I know found me. If I may make one humble observation about my own experience? Kong-fu is the most direct, most efficient and most ecenomical means to achieve your objective if it's a short journey to a market or a mission of revenge to settle some dispute. Killing or maiming is just a thing you can be good at...

Like shopping...

............................................

Kong-fu is the most direct, most efficient and most economical means to achieve your objective

Give the man a cigar.

[Tom Yum]

Killing or maiming is just a thing you can be good at...

Like shopping...

I agree.

Shopping isn't always shopping

[Tom Yum]

tom yum - regarding the video, that was just a backfist. this technique exists in lots of styles. Didn't Shonnie Carter knock out Matt Sera with a spinning back fist a few years ago? Either way it's what most people would call a low percentage technique, compared to staples like crosses and hooks.

You stated that a longer study of KF is necessary to become proficient, but what are you becoming proficient in? What are these extra techniques?

I took a second look at the video - its a knife hand.

Back fists are stun techniques - like jabs. Spinning backfists have enough power to knockdown/KO.

Likewise, I don't see a smaller guy KO-ing a bigger one with a back fist (or jab). Knifehand aimed either at the base of the ear/jaw or along the neck.

[kiddbjj]

....

I suspect you mean some of the techniques that require more touch and timing, like sweeps, trips, throws etc. If this is what you mean then I would generally agree.

For example, I think that Judo is quite a difficult art to get good at because executing a clean throw requires excellent timing and the ability to read peoples balance points. This takes many years of consistent practice and heaps of randori to learn how to flow and adapt to what the opponent is doing. The potential for damage to your opponent is quite large though if they don't know how to fall, so that's what makes them worthwhile. Compared to something relatively simple like grabbing the back of the head and firing knees into the guts or face (which is often seen in the UFC) then yes i see your point.

However the thing I have an issue with is that many KF people never develop the solid basics and high percentage core techniques anyway, and then claim that their art if somehow of a higher level because it contains the more difficult (but destructive) techniques. So what if you dedicate 10 years to learning a great preying mantis sweep (for example)! If you still can't punch or kick properly and you never test the techniques via contest then you don't have much at all.

I know there are many great and powerful techniques in KF, some that are truly dangerous (throws that put people on their necks/heads, sweeps that involve holding the arm to dislocate shoulders, throat strikes and claws etc) but if you can't practice them on resisting opponents they will never be anything more than low, low percentage moves.

In the UFC and other events, when we see really great martial artists like GSP, we are really only seeing a fraction of their technique. This is because they are competing against fierce and skillful opposition. Therefore they generally only go for the most high percentage techniques eg. cross, hook, knees, elbows, armbars, back chokes, kimura etc. Hence the UFC seems to only display basic level fighting (which is a critisism I often hear from TMA people). BUT... take GSP and get him to wrestle with someone that is below his skill level and all of a sudden you will see a whole variety of techniques (lower percentage ones) that he is able to pull off because of the mismatch in skill. I know this because I have wrestled with a UFC fighter (not GSP by the way) and was obviously thoroughly beaten with a whole bunch of techniques that were completely novel ie stuff like go-go-platas, crazy collar chokes from weird angles, reverse leg triangle chokes. There is no way this person would try them in high level comp cause the risk is generally too high of them failing, but against me I was suitably crappy in comparison for them to work.

SO... yes, the higher level and more difficult techniques are still worth learning but I wouldn't base my style on them.

[kiddbjj]

tom yum - regarding the video, that was just a backfist. this technique exists in lots of styles. Didn't Shonnie Carter knock out Matt Sera with a spinning back fist a few years ago? Either way it's what most people would call a low percentage technique, compared to staples like crosses and hooks.

You stated that a longer study of KF is necessary to become proficient, but what are you becoming proficient in? What are these extra techniques?

[Tant01]

Market... Journey...

Its like studying English or Chinese.

...
For instance, put a sentence together:

I'm going to the store.

Learning Chinese is more pain staking - you have to practice character strokes, in a certain order and it takes alot longer to be functional but after you've put in the time - its just as fluid, there are fewer grammar rules but it meets the same purpose - communication.

You could say (in mandarin)

I store go (wo shangdian qu)
I go store (wo qu shangdian)
store I go (shangdian wo qu)

Like wise, combat sports are easy to learn and quick to apply. They get a certain job done. Gong-fu, when taught by a qualified, combat experienced instructor takes more time investment to produce a fighter but you've got alot of tools alot aren't familiar with - if you want to see what its like, ask KOTF to hook you up someone in your area.

I never really went looking for Kong-fu... What little I know found me. If I may make one humble observation about my own experience? Kong-fu is the most direct, most efficient and most ecenomical means to achieve your objective if it's a short journey to a market or a mission of revenge to settle some dispute. Killing or maiming is just a thing you can be good at...

Like shopping...