Ngo Cho Kun

[joedoe]

The main reason you tense at the end of a punch is to avoid injuring the hand and wrist. If you were to keep everything completely relaxed even during contact, you would break bones (particularly in the wrist).

As for Serge's concept of twisting ... the twist helps to generate and translate the power better through the arm. Almost gives a whipping motion to the punch.

[joedoe]

hey guys, youre making a mockery of wu zu quan. if you do really desire to exchange biews and learn new ideas about wzq then please get this back on track. might i suggest some topics for discussion;

lineage ( informative not argumentative)
system contents
genuine experiences
training methods
comparison to other styles.

i have recently come across a group of wing chun practitioners and have 'crossed hands' with them. Thier energy is incredibly like ours, soft yet hard, their principles and theories are also not a million miles away from that of wzq. does anybody else have any exeprience of this?

BJJ, has anybody fought BJJ practitioners?...forget the theory, have you really tested your stance/posture against them?

regards in wzq

I have not crossed hands properly with any WC practitioners, but from what I can see the two arts have similarities. It is almost like WC has grabbed a handful of techniques and worked hard on them, while NCK has a wider range of techniques to provide a broader arsenal.

I have not had the opportunity to test against a BJJ practitioner but am trying to organise that. I have played a bit with a JJJ practitioner and that was interesting - highlighted the fact that I need to work on my chin na a bit more.

[joedoe]

yes, the more relaxed the hand and the heavier it will be, any tension including agnostic tension will support the arm and hand and reduce weight since it is being support....thus scientifically reducing the power?..also, why focus on deflecting a block, i woul drather focus on punching and hitting an opponent, if blocked i would then attack the arm?....its in the principles...disable,....thoughts?

This is true, you must be relaxed. However you cannot be completely relaxed. Obviously you must tense some muscles to generate the movement, and to protect the hands and wrist you must tense some muscles to provide support.

As for deflecting a block, if you can deflect the block then you can crash through their defence. If they cannot stop your punch, then isn't it more effective?

[jingshen]

good thoughts, about being relaxed and breaking bones, i would disagree, just through my own experience you cause more damage by being tense, being relaxed allows your hand and wrist to act almost like a spring, again this comes back to the sinew changes and is indeed part of the theory. dont get me wrong you need to hold the form of your hand and yes you are never completely relaxed but the more u practice the more relaxed u become?

i posed this question because for many years every fight i had i usually broke a bone in my hand...recently i have been doing a lot of sandbag training and have found that the more relaxed u are not only can u transfer more power but also I certainly suffer less injury.

[jingshen]

good thoughts, about being relaxed and breaking bones, i would disagree, just through my own experience you cause more damage by being tense, being relaxed allows your hand and wrist to act almost like a spring, again this comes back to the sinew changes and is indeed part of the theory. dont get me wrong you need to hold the form of your hand and yes you are never completely relaxed but the more u practice the more relaxed u become?

i posed this question because for many years every fight i had i usually broke a bone in my hand...recently i have been doing a lot of sandbag training and have found that the more relaxed u are not only can u transfer more power but also I certainly suffer less injury.

[jingshen]

sorry, posted that twice!

as for twisting...simple power = weight x speed...twisting increases the speed of hand ( certainly the part hitting the opponent) therefore adding to the equation?

[jingshen]

and yes wing chun has a lot of similarities to nck. in fact Leung Tings reserach has shown that it was developed along the sames lines as nck, in the same place but with the emphasis on developing fighters in a shorter period than the 10 years that was expected back then.
i have wokred with WC and VT practitioners and find VT to also include some of our principles. A big emphahsis on chuan ( peirce, strike) with a strong forward force. Also the stance though smaller and less mobile uses the same downward force for rooting.

[joedoe]

good thoughts, about being relaxed and breaking bones, i would disagree, just through my own experience you cause more damage by being tense, being relaxed allows your hand and wrist to act almost like a spring, again this comes back to the sinew changes and is indeed part of the theory. dont get me wrong you need to hold the form of your hand and yes you are never completely relaxed but the more u practice the more relaxed u become?

i posed this question because for many years every fight i had i usually broke a bone in my hand...recently i have been doing a lot of sandbag training and have found that the more relaxed u are not only can u transfer more power but also I certainly suffer less injury.

Hmmm, interesting thoughts. I find that I keep the arm relaxed but my fist tenses to provide support etc. I have never hurt my hand fighting, sparring, or hitting the bag. Maybe it is just what works best for me.

As for sandbag training, while the sandbag is hard it doesn't provide the same resistance that a person will. If you test out your technique on a willing partner wearing padding let us know what happens. I am pretty interested in this.

[joedoe]

sorry, posted that twice!

as for twisting...simple power = weight x speed...twisting increases the speed of hand ( certainly the part hitting the opponent) therefore adding to the equation?

Could be. What I find is that it actually forces me to relax to generate the torquing action correctly, and it is almost like the rifling of a bullet. Also, on contact it generates an extra bit of snap.

[joedoe]

and yes wing chun has a lot of similarities to nck. in fact Leung Tings reserach has shown that it was developed along the sames lines as nck, in the same place but with the emphasis on developing fighters in a shorter period than the 10 years that was expected back then.
i have wokred with WC and VT practitioners and find VT to also include some of our principles. A big emphahsis on chuan ( peirce, strike) with a strong forward force. Also the stance though smaller and less mobile uses the same downward force for rooting.

Both styles also have a common ancestor in the white crane techniques. The stances and hand techniques are so similar.

[Oraenor]

Both styles also have a common ancestor in the white crane techniques. The stances and hand techniques are so similar.

I believe that white crane style is a long fist and wing chun is a short fist.

[joedoe]

I believe that white crane style is a long fist and wing chun is a short fist.

Are you talking about Tibetan white crane or Fukien white crane? I guess I should have been clearer as I was talking about Fukien white crane, which is closely related to Ngor Chor Kun, and supposedly related to Wing Chun.

[Oraenor]

Are you talking about Tibetan white crane or Fukien white crane? I guess I should have been clearer as I was talking about Fukien white crane, which is closely related to Ngor Chor Kun, and supposedly related to Wing Chun.

Are you sure at what you are talking about? I've seen them train and and have talked with my sifu about it. Both styles of crane seem to be a long fist and wing chun short. Wing chun's closest relo is lung ying and is more snake style than crane. The only relation between 5 fist animal and wing chun is from the destruction of the shaolin temple in which wing chun, bak mei, NCK, white tiger, plum flower fist and various others escaped with the 5 elders.

[Nazman]

The only relation between 5 fist animal and wing chun is from the destruction of the shaolin temple in which wing chun, bak mei, NCK, white tiger, plum flower fist and various others escaped with the 5 elders.

One correction to your post - Ngo Cho Kun is 5 ancetsor not 5 animals.

Cheers

[jingshen]

one of the training methods we use is for a partner to stand in stance holding a kick shield or thai pad against their chest, we then hit them with various techniques. this not only provides the 'hitter' with feedback and ability to develop a penetrating power but also provides the ' holder' with a chance to test their stance and rooting.