Ngo Cho Kun

[konghan]

how does it help develop chi?

I understood chi development to come about through relaxation?

When you hit out do you relax?

does the tensioning not reduce the effect of rooting ?

surely the whipping motion is done in a relaxed manner?

i don't mean to be argumentative, as you said it is difficult to explain and easier to demonstrate.

I do practice ngo cho so have a good understanding of the form but am from a different lineage so the form is perfromed relaxed, i really would like to understand how the tensionig benefits in dveloping chi/technique/application?

regards

Yes it help develop the chi, thru proper timing of breathing & striking out as well as throughout the sam chien set. Yes, striking out relax, whip out then as soon as the finger strike is about to reach the end, the forearm, shoulder, hip (near stomach area) & legs will kind`d jerk down (semi tense) like a jab simoltaneously exhaling thru the mouth. ( Try doing a jab punch, power comes from legs twisting then the hips, then the shoulders, then the arms then once the punch is about to reach the target it solidify right? ) No the tensioning doesnot affect the rooting, if the rooting you are refering to is the foot base. Then no, unless it is being done inproperly. In fact the tensioning will enhance your foot balance & ability to stay firm on the ground which is needed to execute that power punch without lossing your balance or focus.

Just for curiosity, do you perform your sam chien in total reflaxation for the whole set?, if so how do you generate power, focus & make your stance firmer?

[Nothingness]

Please pardon my lowly input. The tension is a separate set used for iron body training. The execusion of punch is as Konghan stated.

[jingshen]

your input is most welcome, I'm am open to all experiences and only wish to improve my understanding of ngo cho kun. I have practiced for a few years now and find that although as a beginner i used a lot of tension, the more i practice the more it is possible to relax and the easier it becomes to produce and deliver effective power.

My main aim is fighting in a traditional manner. I practice alot on applying techniques from forms and using them effectively. I have used ngo cho on numerous occasions in the course of my previously work which invlolve a degree of confrontation. I have found relaxed approach benefits in all apsects of application from rooting to sensing to delivering power?

I am aware of the iron body training although this is different to actually developing sanchien in application, which is my main interest at the moment.

please let me know your thoughts

regards

[konghan]

Nothingness, I did received your messeges and I send a respond I guess you didn`t received it?

[Nothingness]

tense -> empty -> explode -> hard
shoulder/hip -> elbow/knee -> wrist/ankle
the foundations are always breathing and legs

those are just the very basic of nck's power delivery in my understanding. the fluidity and positioning are another beauty . relaxing is the best approach previous to engagement. however, the power delivery requires tense.

if you are lucky enough to have a fellow practicioner with you, then keep practicing your "bridging". I have no such luck and stuck with only training by myself.

Konghan: please check your pm box. thanks.

[Nothingness]

Oh by the way,

I think that the book by Alex Co kind of giving an improper notion about sam cien. true that it is the very foundation of nck and without it you cant develop the proper power delivery. however, learning sam cien alone wont make you an effective fighter unless you know the very meaning of all the movements. to be able to practice sam cien and understand the very essence of it, you have to go through the whole circle. at this very advanced level, doing sam cien is like doing a rehearsal before your exam (just studying from the summary after you have thoroughly learning the whole thing).

just my useless 2 cents worth

[jingshen]

I disagree with the tension on impact thing...it is very possible to hit, harder, with a relaxed posture...incorp the five parts....yes i do have people to practice with, i am slightly further on than one form, i know twelve empty hand forms , seven weapons, three set sparring, catching to forms one to three and all the various exercises, long ar, short arm, etc....i have practised for about 20 years and have used it in numerous violebnt situations...only in the past few years have i reached a level to hit relaxed..

[jingshen]

Didn't mean that to sound arrogant? It's good to hear other views on this as there aren't many of us ngo cho practitioners around?!

My views are expressed with respect...

regards

[yentao]

Applying Ngo Cho Kun is easy especially in bridging. Your arm training won't be wasted. You could even use your arm to knock someone. I think tension is required in training Sam Chien it helps in strengthening the limbs. Konghan thanks for the post.

[yentao]

Oh by the way,

I think that the book by Alex Co kind of giving an improper notion about sam cien. true that it is the very foundation of nck and without it you cant develop the proper power delivery. however, learning sam cien alone wont make you an effective fighter unless you know the very meaning of all the movements. to be able to practice sam cien and understand the very essence of it, you have to go through the whole circle. at this very advanced level, doing sam cien is like doing a rehearsal before your exam (just studying from the summary after you have thoroughly learning the whole thing).

just my useless 2 cents worth

First three techniques of sam chien can already give you an idea how to defend yourself. The first whitecrane technique in the form is already found here. The ti tui tim kang technique ( first tension movement) found in the opening form (found at the book) can prepare you from how ngo cho kun can strengthen your arm and gripping. I think this is mentioned in the book or it was not...

[yentao]

If you know how to angle your arms while blocking, you will be able to learn how to use NCK blocks better.

[konghan]

Jingshen, where are you residing?, are you in North America?

Sam Chien for me is like a warm up before starting out the whole work out. I use it to practice my tan tien, hip movement espacially the elbow break part.

Once you have reach a higher lvl & starting to feel the proper way to execute sam chien you`ll be able to pinpoint when & where to apply muscle tensioning combining it with breathing, power & speed. But the most important part in sm chien for me is the stance. My late Sifu always said that when sam chien is perform properly the entire sole of your feet will sweat very hard.

Relax posture yes, then at the moment of attack or what is known as the one inch punch the fist or finger tips together with a sudden last minute tensioning of the forearm plus using the legs, hips & shoulders twist in the direction of the target will generate not only the right impact of penetration but the speed & power to really hurt your opponent.

That is why we do sam chien first in order to conditioned our body to be able to deliver that whipping one inch attack. Not only that, sam chien train our focusing as well.

My favorite kuntow or form in NCK is the song sui together with song sui set sparring.

NCK`s principle of battle is, to finish a fight as quickly as possible by applying the most effective powerful techniques that would stop your opponent.

NCK is just not well known here in North America, but in South East Asia it is an established art. So far its mostly Japanese MA, Tae Kwan Do, Tai Chi, Wu Shu, Choy Li Fut, Mantis King Fu, Hung Gar, Brazillian JiJitSu, Jeet Kun Do & shoalin boxing which is almost the same as wu shu & Wing Chun that are known here.

There are so many local martial tournaments here in North America that is very suited for NCK. Training a small team to participate is not a bad idea it will also give us the opportunity to introduce NCK to this part of the world.

[jingshen]

I reside in the U.K.

I have travelled througout the east and trained with various practitioners from different styles.

I understand what you are saying about sam chien and the tensioning but i feel, certainly from my pesonal experience that you can work through the tensioning until it becomes relaxed, at this point more power is free to flow through the body and be released....i now punch/strike with a relaxed hand and arm and find i can deliver more power than when tensioning...I belieive the idea is that you practice tension in the beginning in order to undertsand relaxation?

certainly for me it has produced good effects and i am now able to deliver a more powerful blow and a quicker succession of blows as my body is relaxed and able to move faster with less resistance to motion?

this coincides with scientific research into agnostic muscle behaviour?

regards

[Nothingness]

Yentao:

In my humble opinion, the knowledge of using the sam cien increases as the student becomes more advanced in the training. So, a more advanced student might know 100 variations to use the opening salutation (hypothetical number) while a less advanced student knows only 1 or 2 (another hypothetical number. You indicated that there are pek ho ingredients in the salutation. Learning pek ho itself shows that you are in a rather advanced stage, at least more advanced than me (please note that this is an honest opinion and there is no tone of sarcasm here).


Jingshen:

Please pardon my inquiry. I don't mean this to be a pissing contest, but I would like to restate Konghan's question about how you hit without making it hard at the end. In my observation, if the hit is let loose at the end, the power can't be developed and the target can't be focused since the hand will be shaken (not a good shake a.k.a "sok", but unfocused shake). Could you please elaborate more on this?

To all NCK practicioners:

One pride that I have for practicing NCK is the community. I find it everywhere that NCK's community is very respectful to each other and I am proud of it. I am very glad of the way the discussions have gone in a very respecful manner. I believe that each of us is holding a piece, some maybe larger some smaller, but we can always put it together and use it for own progress. For a beginner like me, it is always very useful. Thanks in advanced.


Salutation

[jingshen]

This, like many aspects of ngo cho is very hard to explain without seeing or feeling it but i will try!

When you punch/strike try to relax your arm and feel the connection from your leg through to your hand. Relax the hand ( maintain the form of the hand whether it is palm or fist) and let the pressure run throught the five parts. Try this slowly at first on a heavy sandbag or training partners chest( he can hold a focus mitt or kick shield against his chest)...softly at first driving the power through from the leg...build up the speed to normal hitting speed but maintain a relaxed arm and posture. your tendons/ cartliges in each section will act as shock absorbers and transfer the power through each section and increase the sring effect...your striking palm/fist will mould itself almost to the impact point allowing power to be transfered without any impact injury to the hand....i don't know if this comes across correctly but i know it works for me...wish i could show you?!

i find this far more effective than striking with a tension...the tension only stops the transfer of power...also stops chi flowing from the last three fingers ( man, heaven, earth)

please try this with an open mind and let me know yours thoughts!

with respect