Ngo Cho Kun

[sherwinc]

Tai Chi, uhm, that`s interesting? come to think of it, I have never yet spar with a Tai Chi fighter.

to tell you frankly, in KungFu, TaiChi has the most powerful hand attack compare to NgoChoKun,

but.....

NgoChoKun's (maybe second to the most powerful hand attack) is easy and much more quickier to apply its hand attack compare to taichi

and....

neither of them (TaiChi or NgoChoKun) when they hit you just once then your gonna be disabled......

Note:
NgoChoKun's power came from its forms (particularly their Chien's form, not Kun form) then the Ngo Ki Lat

while....

TaiChiChuan's power came from the positioning of the stance (like the rear feet direction of power to the back while the motion of hand attack is to the opponent, with a circulation of chi to inhale and exhale while attacking) Theory of PushingHands.....

KongHan i have a question:
are you familiar with a Tai Chi Chuan Chua Style? (the call it Tai Chiae Kun) my instructor is from the School KongHan too in Manila, its instructor there is Chua Yi Sin. maybe 20 years past already....

[krys]

to tell you frankly, in KungFu, TaiChi has the most powerful hand attack

That is very questionable.... Hsing I - Xing Yi has this reputation not TaiChi.
Anyway very few peoples know how to use TaiChi to fight....

[konghan]

to tell you frankly, in KungFu, TaiChi has the most powerful hand attack compare to NgoChoKun,

but.....

NgoChoKun's (maybe second to the most powerful hand attack) is easy and much more quickier to apply its hand attack compare to taichi

and....

neither of them (TaiChi or NgoChoKun) when they hit you just once then your gonna be disabled......

Note:
NgoChoKun's power came from its forms (particularly their Chien's form, not Kun form) then the Ngo Ki Lat

while....

TaiChiChuan's power came from the positioning of the stance (like the rear feet direction of power to the back while the motion of hand attack is to the opponent, with a circulation of chi to inhale and exhale while attacking) Theory of PushingHands.....

KongHan i have a question:
are you familiar with a Tai Chi Chuan Chua Style? (the call it Tai Chiae Kun) my instructor is from the School KongHan too in Manila, its instructor there is Chua Yi Sin. maybe 20 years past already....

Tai Chi Chuan?, the closes I saw was tai Chi push hands & the regular 24 & 108 moves. Chua Yi SIn? There are several Chua in KongHan, I`m trying to remember who Yi Sin is?, I have to check with Pitt on this.

As far as NCK power generation yes, it is concentrated on the 5 ki-lat ( 5 powers )which are the legs, hips ( tan tien), shoulders, arms & fist combine with chi.

With chi the techniques are no different from tai chi. It is always emphasied in NCK the use " siam pi lat", " seh lat" it is not only about brute force it is combining brute force with chi that makes it powerful.

In fact I beleive (subject to discussion w/ my superiors) that people who cannot perform the hard style of NCK becuase of age or certain lack of physical abilities or are interested more on the health development can execute NCK forms with semi slow-rythm of movements combine with breathing (almost identical to tai chi movements).

This exercise will as the same with the hard style of NCK work out the internal organs through the movement of oxygen. Removing bad air & replenishing our organs with fresh air & move our blood around. Using the heart as a pump in a slow & gradual manner.

In other words NCK can be for either hard/soft for fighting or soft for phsyioworkout.

[konghan]

deleted, a repeat of the first.

[Nothingness]

Doing the form slowly while focusing on the breathing is the essence of the Tat-Mo (Daizong) side of NCK. It's good for blood circulation and power training (dynamic tension) although not the most efficient power training method.


Just my 2 cents.

[sherwinc]

Tai Chi Chuan?, the closes I saw was tai Chi push hands & the regular 24 & 108 moves. Chua Yi SIn? There are several Chua in KongHan, I`m trying to remember who Yi Sin is?, I have to check with Pitt on this.

As far as NCK power generation yes, it is concentrated on the 5 ki-lat ( 5 powers )which are the legs, hips ( tan tien), shoulders, arms & fist combine with chi.

With chi the techniques are no different from tai chi. It is always emphasied in NCK the use " siam pi lat", " seh lat" it is not only about brute force it is combining brute force with chi that makes it powerful.

In fact I beleive (subject to discussion w/ my superiors) that people who cannot perform the hard style of NCK becuase of age or certain lack of physical abilities or are interested more on the health development can execute NCK forms with semi slow-rythm of movements combine with breathing (almost identical to tai chi movements).

This exercise will as the same with the hard style of NCK work out the internal organs through the movement of oxygen. Removing bad air & replenishing our organs with fresh air & move our blood around. Using the heart as a pump in a slow & gradual manner.

In other words NCK can be for either hard/soft for fighting or soft for phsyioworkout.

My instructor said, NgoChoKun is not a Hard & Soft kungfu but, it is a HardSoft.....

note:
Hard and Soft is not the same as HardSoft

like those of Ying and Yang, its a wrong but... it is called Yin Yang.... (you could not separate those two with "and" or "&" seperations)

NgoChoKun use Chi but not a Nei Dan Form of Chi like those of Tai Chi but, NgoChoKun is a Wai Dan Form of Chi...... which means, putting Chi in a desired location of the body to make it tough - like a Golden Bell Cover of AngKa Kun.....(Iron Skin)

according to my instructor, Tai Chi has the most powerful hand blow, example: if an opponent delivers a low front kneecap kick, the TaiChi will only neutralize that low kick by a quick flick of the blade of the hands to the direction of opponents kick and you may see the opponent summersaults with head first meet the ground.... in just a flick/twist of the hand..... in WingChun it is called 1 and a 3-inch punch..... in ChiDianBun it is called Less Than One-Inch Punch.......

Yet pushing hands is soft in practice but in actual combat it is more speedier than a strike of palm..... yet soft and smooth, Tai Chi push hands is a very fast strike if you know how, it is a non-telegraphic type of attacks.....

Note:
TaiChi Push Hands, WingChun's Chi Sau, Snake Style KungFu = three of them are well known in coiling movements.... Coiling Strategy of fighting is one of my favorite.......

[sherwinc]

That is very questionable.... Hsing I - Xing Yi has this reputation not TaiChi.
Anyway very few peoples know how to use TaiChi to fight....

I know how to fight using my Hik Tai Chi Chuan against my opponent.... but if my opponent is very very tough.... i switch from Tai Chi to a combination of ChiDianBun, WingChun and some NgoChoKun plus AngKa Kun....

and i notice that.... i can't use my Tai Chi if my opponent is a Boxing..... and i notice that Tai Chi is very effective if your opponent is Karate and Tae Kwon Do..... for only one reason: their hand attacks is almost all straight from shoulder to their fist and i am very familiar to the type of kicks they use ( as usual: front kick, side kick and roundhouse kicks and nothing more)

then if Tai Chi is not suitable to fight Boxing or kick boxing, i rather switch to a kungfu with a short-hand distance attack like those of WingChun, ChiDianBun and NgoChoKun (this three short distance kungfu's is very effective)

XingYi, Hsing-I Chuan, my instructor called it Hing-E, it is a short distance fight also, a Taoist Form of KungFu, there focus on their 5 Elements of KungFu, but Chi Dian Bun is much more superior compare to XingYi cause Chi Dian Bun has its Seven Elements instead of XingYi's 5 Elements.....

I read a book of Chinese Martial Arts before, about the history of XingYi and PaKua Chuan...... the master of XingYi fight with the master of Pakua and XingYi is defeated.

PaKua is more on Circular Hand Attacks
XingYi is more on Linear Hand Attacks
while....
TaiChi is the best cause it is more on Circular and Linear Hand Attacks (a blend of both)
ChiDianBun is more on Circular and Diagonal Hand Attacks
WingChun is more on Horizontal and Vertical Hand Attacks

it is my hobby to study all these types of KungFu yet you cant master this all cause its impossible but thru constant practice and gradually... a reward.... no non-kungfu types of martial arts can beat you......

[Nothingness]

sherwininc: I am just glad that you really contribute in this forum as opposed to what you do in many different occasions .

[konghan]

[QUOTE=Nothingness]Doing the form slowly while focusing on the breathing is the essence of the Tat-Mo (Daizong) side of NCK. It's good for blood circulation and power training (dynamic tension) although not the most efficient power training method.
QUOTE]

Thats` why for those who are not capable of performing the hard/ fighting style of NCK & are mainly interested for health purposes can do the soft style of NCK.

Sherwin: i am impressed with your academic/intellectual background on chinese martial art & martial art in general, not only are you familiar with the introductory aspect but you seem very well verse & have an indept knowledge of the entire subject on MA.

[sherwinc]

[QUOTE=konghan
Thats` why for those who are not capable of performing the hard/ fighting style of NCK & are mainly interested for health purposes can do the soft style of NCK.
[/QUOTE]

AngKa Kun KungFu is the sister art of NgoChoKun(GoCho).... we, 15 kungfu students ( 7 students who knows AngKaKun and the remaining 8 students is in TaiChi Chuan Yang, Tan, and Chua Styles)

but after 1 month of practice.... these 7 AngKa students(including me) wishes to switch practice to Tai Chi Chuan cause we cannot tackle the pain in Transferring of power training to all parts of our body, our instructor hit us with his fist and palm to harden the selected area of the body for Iron Skin Purposes..... that AngKa is really not suitable for the structure of our body.... so, we switch practice to Tai Chi Chuan in Yang, Hik, and Kiaw Styles.

Note:
If you cannot tackle the pain in Practicing AngKa's Iron Skin Training, therefore you are not qualified to learn NgoChoKun cause, NgoChoKun is a very Brutal Art compare to his sister art AngKaKun(Lohan or Arhats boxing)

Note:
but one of our kungfu classmate finally qualified to learn NgoChoKun, my instructor teach him Sam Chien, one of my KungFu classmate who knows IronPalm then he hit our classmate many times during training who knows SamChien but - even Iron Palm cannot make a bruise mark unto our classmate who knows SamChien..... his SamChien is not the same that i saw in my book of NgoChoKun BengKiam version.....

The name of our classmate who knows Sam Chien is Lat, his age is 15years old and a thin body.....
The name of our classmate who knows IronPalm is Zero, his age is 40years old and a very big body.....

One of my classmate named Cyril (our best AngKa classmate) who practice Iron Skin and he has a very very solid and iron forearm, but when our classmate Zero - hit his ironpalm unto Cyril's iron forearm just once, then it marked a bruise on his forearm...... a very dark bruise mark....

although its impossible for you to believe for me: to see plenty of times is to believe and i was there training with my Hik Tai Chi Chuan Kiam Sword

Note:
my english is very poor cause i am a solid Filipino.

[krys]

XingYi, Hsing-I Chuan, my instructor called it Hing-E, it is a short distance fight also, a Taoist Form of KungFu, there focus on their 5 Elements of KungFu, but Chi Dian Bun is much more superior compare to XingYi cause Chi Dian Bun has its Seven Elements instead of XingYi's 5 Elements.....

I read a book of Chinese Martial Arts before, about the history of XingYi and PaKua Chuan...... the master of XingYi fight with the master of Pakua and XingYi is defeated.

PaKua is more on Circular Hand Attacks
XingYi is more on Linear Hand Attacks
while....
TaiChi is the best cause it is more on Circular and Linear Hand Attacks (a blend of both)
ChiDianBun is more on Circular and Diagonal Hand Attacks
WingChun is more on Horizontal and Vertical Hand Attacks

Hsing I Chuan has also the12 animals:
Dragon
Tiger
Monkey
Horse
Crocodile
Rooster
Hawk
Swallow
Snake
Fish
Eagle
Bear
.... and it is older than Tai Chi Chuan and Bagua Chuan... (it is probably the oldest daoist martial arts still practiced).... Xing Yi has the longuest known list of undefeated masters in China.... and it was chosen as the martial art to be taught to chinese soldiers during wwII. It is very agressive and well known for it's explosive force... it is mostly linear but also uses circular motions... Tai Chi is more on redirecting force while Xing Yi is on generating force, they say Xing Yi has the most powerfull fist/hand attacks...


Wang Xiang Zhai, a famous Xing-Yi master developed a related offshoot art focusing on basic actions from Xingyi and Shaolin called Yi Quan (Mind-Intent Boxing), sometimes referred to by others as Da Cheng Quan ("Great Achievement Boxing").
He never was defeated.... and fought against many of the best chinese masters of last century....

[Nothingness]

In my opinions:

Circular arts are much harder to master. These arts are usually "soft" in the nature. It takes a very long time to learn and the progress is non-linear, either. However, ones really proficient in the arts, are usually very devastating.

Linear arts take much shorter times to master. These arts are usually "hard" in the nature. However, there seems to be a plateau after certain times of practicing.

There is a saying in Northern China: "Xingyi, one year. Taiji, a lifetime." Therefore, Xingyi is, of course, a better choice for a mass short time military training.

However, I believe that if "hard" is hard enough, it still beats the "soft".

I am sure this topic has been discussed somewhere else .

[sherwinc]

In my opinions:

Circular arts are much harder to master. These arts are usually "soft" in the nature. It takes a very long time to learn and the progress is non-linear, either. However, ones really proficient in the arts, are usually very devastating.

Linear arts take much shorter times to master. These arts are usually "hard" in the nature. However, there seems to be a plateau after certain times of practicing.

There is a saying in Northern China: "Xingyi, one year. Taiji, a lifetime." Therefore, Xingyi is, of course, a better choice for a mass short time military training.

However, I believe that if "hard" is hard enough, it still beats the "soft".

I am sure this topic has been discussed somewhere else .

as far as i know in KungFu, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line..... (not those of straight line from shoulder up to fist like those of karate and tae kwon do)

your first primary hand motions to defeat your opponent is to deal him straight lined attacks, but if the opponent is hard to defeat, you should deal him in angle hand motions, or if still hard to defeat, you should switch to circle or semi-circling hand attacks to defeat him

note:
from linear to angles to circle/semi-circle: all of them are all NON-TELEGRAPHIC TO THE EYES OF THE OPPONENT

[Nothingness]

You are absolutely right. I didn't mean to get into technicality. I was speaking in loose terms of the "energy" transfer. "Linear" arts use relatively direct methods for th energy transfers (both for defense and attack). "Cirrcular" arts use indirect methods such as dissolving the energy of the attack and use enemy's own energy for a counter attack.

I think you know very well what I mean. Don't take this 2 mins reply too technically, but your corrections and input are always welcome.

[konghan]

Does anybody knows any NCK here in North America USA or Canada? I kind`d remember that there is one in the USA operated by Bonifacio Lim of Beng Kiam I was just wondering where is it located? or is there any other NCK?