Sayoc Kali system or close equivalent

[Airyu]

Hello RabidPanda,

" Next time I'll bow to the Sayoc triblemen" ....Now who is taking themself to seriously (LOL)

"Also 50/hr is not a good deal or in my opinion cheap"

Price for classes is always a relative thing, you may get good instruction in the Philippines way less than what you will pay for it in the USA. Private instruction, one on one with any good Instructor is worth the cost, and I have paid for private instruction with many different instructors.

"I could get a gun faster than paying for those private lessons to learn how to use a knife."

Absolutely true, but like with any weapon it comes with a responsibility not to use it with a criminal intent. You must also obey the local and state and even Federal laws regarding the use and carry of such weapon, unless you are a criminal. Back to the cost issue, I have also paid $50/hr for firearm instruction courses, having my vehicle fixed, at the dentist, electrician....again cost is always a relative thing.

"but in all actuality it limits itself more so than almost all Kali variants."

Since most of what you know about Sayoc Kali comes from the internet or hearsay, how do you know what is limiting within the system? You really should try out some classes with a certified Instructor or at the least take a seminar somewhere, so you can get a better idea of what training entails. Many of the Sayoc Instructors, including myself, have taken Doce Pares lessons and respect the art and it's practitioners highly. Many of the practitioners and Instructors also hold ranks among many other FMA's as well.

Sayoc Kali is a living art , constantly researching and improving as it grows.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[themorningstar]

doce pares "kali"? are you kidding me? its eskrima...and has been eskrima since santiago's time...do your research...

[Sun_Helmet]

Rabidpanda,

I am wondering why you state what you state, what's the purpose?
Do you need some sort of validation of your training and therefore have to do it at the expense of Sayoc Kali?

Your comments don't sound like anyone from the Doce Pares organization.

I've done Sayoc Kali demos for several official Doce Pares events. They have always been VERY gracious and excellent hosts. You are not exhibiting these traits... thus, the doubt of your identity.

Tuhon Chris Sayoc highly respects their system and looks at GM Cacoy Canete as one of his most influencial mentors. If any FMA system outside of Guro Inosanto could be considered a true brotherhood of Sayoc Kali, it would be Doce Pares. We always support any of their events and even point MANY people to train in Doce Pares..without any hesitation.

***It has been this way for decades from BOTH sides.***

Therefore, your comments place people from both organizations at awkward positions. Not very well thought out.

Sayoc Kali is just a different take and path to gaining proficiency in Kali. That is NOT a value judgement on other systems, but a fact if one ever saw or trained in Sayoc Kali. It was NEVER called revolutionary by those who have studied other systems .. however, it has been called Highly EVOLVED, by the likes of Guro Dan Inosanto.

It doesn't mean that any other FMA system is less than, just different.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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[rabidpanda]

Why does politics have to permeate every martial art on this planet? From what I've read on the official Sayoc site is that you play mostly with knives and when I say 'play' I use that in the sense of the word meaning 'practice'.

I don't think Sayoc is bad at all I think it's just a focused version of Eskrima/Kali/Arnis as a whole. Focused mostly on knife. Which is perfectly fine. Stop being so melodramatic about my statements. I respect the majority of martial arts but I do not respect some individual instructors. I don't feel I have to. There are over 2 billion people in this world and I personally don't feel I should have to cater to everyone of you.

TexasSayoc,

If you got time you might like what you find in Sedona, Az. by an instructor's name of Chris Petrilli. He's really good at stick grappling and loves compression locks.

themorningstar,

I can call it Doce Pares Arnis/Eskrima/Kali if I want there is nothing against me stating that. They all mean the same thing except in literal sense.

Esgrima = Fence

Arnis = Harness

Kali = Flow/River (Malaysian by the way)

Do your research before presuming I don't.

By the way, using the word EVOLVED is saying you are higher than otherwise you'd of used a different word.

Evolution - noun - A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

By definition you think your style more superior or as a synonym would be 'better'.

Another simple, yet sometimes neglected, question would be, where did the founder of Sayoc Kali learn his art? The whole thread was about the Sayoc system or an equivalent. I brought up an equivalent and only stated what I've learned which is freely diseminated on the website.

[Sun_Helmet]

Rabid Panda, here is your FIRST response to the query from someone who was interested in Sayoc Kali:

Just curious why you'd wanna join a Sayoc 'tribe'? Most in the US take themselves way too seriously.

Wow... that's a rather loaded NEGATIVE 'politically' charged comment. But wait, it must be based on an educated opinion based on personal experience right? That would at least explain why you would answer this question.

However, we find out:

Don't take my opinion as paramount it is just from what i've heard is that they take themselves way to seriously. Remember I'm just expressing an opinion and not everyone will be kind to your style.

That's not an opinion that's gossip and heresay. Opinion would be something based on personal experience not what they 'heard'. Passing off heresay as something of worth tends to discredit one's opinions. We don't care if you are 'kind' to our style, at least have an idea what our style is... not garner opinions from gossip and then turn around to perpetuate falsehoods on public forums.

Then we find out you have an issue on our quote that Sayoc Kali is 'Highly Evolved'.

Evolution - noun - A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Better read your own definition again.

By the way, using the word EVOLVED is saying you are higher than otherwise you'd of used a different word.

and

By definition you think your style more superior or as a synonym would be 'better'.

Thanks for telling us what we think.
That's a false premise and far from the truth.

If you read carefully you will realize the 'EVOLVED' quote was originated by Guro Dan Inosanto NOT Sayoc Kali. Guro Inosanto doesn't throw that type of description around. It is EVOLVED because it is his honest opinion. I believe people actually take his opinion to mean something compared to someone who doesn't even sign their real names on a public forum. Guro Inosanto has actually trained with Tuhon Sayoc and from his experience has recommended us highly. You on the other hand, stress that you judge on an individual level but have never even met an individual who trains or teaches Sayoc Kali.

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I don't think Sayoc is bad at all I think it's just a focused version of Eskrima/Kali/Arnis as a whole. Focused mostly on knife. Which is perfectly fine. Stop being so melodramatic about my statements.

You confuse melodrama for ACCOUNTABILITY rabidpanda. Look at your initial response to this thread and subsequent comments.

It is rather amusing that here are instructors FROM Sayoc Kali describing Sayoc Kali, and you... who have NO experience with Sayoc Kali are now trying to tell people you have an idea of what Sayoc Kali is about. You're even telling us what we are. Amazing.

Btw, SAYOC is not the same as Sayoc Kali. Sayoc Kali is but a part of the whole Sayoc Fighting Systems. And Sayoc Kali isn't knives but blades... as in edged weapons - ALL kinds.

You never trained with any individuals in Sayoc Kali and now state you judge by individual -however, your whole commentary is based on a blanket statement on a system you never trained in.

On the word 'play'
That's a rather long winded sidestep to simply state the word 'practice'.


As per the 'neglected' question, nice deflection of the matter at hand:
You show your true stripes rabid panda. It is NEVER a neglected question , because internet trolls often bring this tired topic up at every opportunity. There's more than enough text on the history of Sayoc Kali. You even paraphrase from the text when you mention Doce Pares as an influence. So obviously you've been reading up on the history.

Tuhon Sayoc didn't learn his art from ONE source and that is why you have trouble (or refuse to understand) that Sayoc Kali has EVOLVED from the many influences, experiences and mentors that Tuhon Sayoc has met through the years. Guro Inosanto recognized this and stated so.
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Why not allow those from Sayoc Kali to actually answer for themselves a question directed at them? Since you do NOT have any DIRECT experience with Sayoc Kali to make an EDUCATED comparison, isn't it time to PRACTICE some common sense?


--Rafael--
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[rabidpanda]

I'd like to point out that I'm sorry if I angered you thinking that I hate Sayoc or something. I don't. I practice kali myself and like the whole community of it. Just from the people I trust and know have had negative experiences.

Let's all be knife wielding buddies and get past some not so well thought out posts.

[Sun_Helmet]

No negative emotion directed at you personally RP.

In the past, a single comment has snowballed down the internet and eventually ends up as a monster avalanche that causes needless problems for everyone involved.

We respect that you recognized this early and now we can all move on.

--Rafael--
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[rabidpanda]

I've seen a single comment get so misconstrued that it can destroy people. Forums are like e-mail and so you have to be almost as unemotional as possible.

[ReneH]

About this knife Kali thing

Hello! Folks

Forgive me for saying this but I have read the thread and I think that some people still have misconceptions about knife fighting in general. At Threat Negation Systems we don't work the knife from any one Kali or Escrima drill, be it Hubud, Sumbrada, Numerada, etc. We came to these conclusions from actual all out knife "assault scenarios" and not while "knife sparring." Both are different approaches.

Furthermore, we have spent about 3 years "redesigning" our knife "program" and it was easy to realize that most if not all the knife drills associated with the FMA did not enhance our ability to successfully defend or deal with a knife assault. None of that ever came inot play while testing it full force against full resistance and real presssure.

Moreover, we realized that most of the drilling we learned was of the knife vs knife but the truth is that a knife attack will occurr when you are not prepared and attempting to draw your knife is not your best option while you are being sliced and diced. Also, as much as we "play" with knives not many of us carry one.

So, our focus has changed to that of dealing with 3 real world assaults with knives from the close quarter: the stab or prison hit, the slash and the overhead. In order to deal with such an attack, it becomes necessary to learn Greco tie-ups and turn on the violence from the onset. If you think that a parry here or a parry there is going to come into play think again. Have your partner use a training aid knife and give him the blessing of "killing you" and you'll realize immediately that much of what you are doing will not hold up in the fog of war so to speak.

Defending against the knife is very difficult, it requires intense psychological and adrenal control, and it requires solid options from the start of the assault.

I hate to come here and plug my dvd, "Facing the Blade: Dealing with the Stab" but there is a small mpeg that should tell point out what really happens when an assault with a knife is involved and what are some more rational options other than the FMA has to offer. Go check it out at:

Facing the Blade: Dealing with the Stab


Sincerely,

Rene Hinojosa

Threat Negation Systems
"Cutting Edge Self-Preservation Training"

[Sun_Helmet]

Hello! Folks
Forgive me for saying this but I have read the thread and I think that some people still have misconceptions about knife fighting in general. At Threat Negation Systems we don't work the knife from any one Kali or Escrima drill, be it Hubud, Sumbrada, Numerada, etc. We came to these conclusions from actual all out knife "assault scenarios" and not while "knife sparring." Both are different approaches.

That's why Sayoc Kali has gotten a lot of attention. There's different responses and threat levels. The strategic depth is high and goes beyond knife sparring.

As per Greco Roman techniques, you should check out some of our SAYOC DVDs. It goes beyond the second stage of entry and pummeling range and shows some possibilities that can happen in that close quarter range.

We have worked with many grapplers (BJJ, Kudokan, etc) and world class wrestlers (US Team members), so have gotten their reactions and best of all their elite motor skills which many people do not have. If it works on them, it will work on the normal person.

As per prison shankings, several of our full instructors are LEOs and the father of our system's head retired as a Correctional Officer. So we have first hand experience. There's actually FOUR primary prison style shank attacks.

In Sayoc Tactical we delve into military methods and adjust for their requirements. We even included Sayoc Tomahawk techniques, of which ATC founder Andy Prisco reviewed as the most advanced Tomahawk material he had ever seen.

Best of luck with your program and continue your evolution in knife tactics.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Sayoc Kali is phenomenal!
Edge Weapons just scratch the surface of the techniques, teaching methodology and combat mindset of the Sayoc group. If you are looking for teachers who seriously research and address all areas of personal combat for the modern warrior; you owe it to yourself to seek out these gentlemen."
Mike Mello
20 plus year police officer. International military and law enforcement trainer for Heckler & Koch and Armor Holdings Inc.

"I've trained with many experts over my 24 years as a Navy SEAL and the information I've found to be the most efficient and well-rounded is the Sayoc Kali knife fighting techniques. You will acquire an exceptional proficiency with a knife beyond anything you thought possible."
Michael Jaco
Originator / Head Instructor for the Navy SEALs Combat Fighting Course

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[BrotherD]

Thank you for your insight

Nice video clip, but why the attack on FMA?
if all you wanted to do was give your opinion,
then do so, no need to imply that some how you and
your friends. in 3 years, have come up with the answer to
three types of attacks. Are we to assume them that the knifers that
you applied this real world training on we're actually killers. when you say real
training does that means a real knife too.

Help me with this one
“Also, as much as we "play" with knives not many of us carry one.”
what would be the point where would a cook be in a Kitchen with out the
knowledge of how to use his blades to cook?
"Greco tie-ups" this ones a killer, wrestling implies struggle, and yes grappling does help one deal with CQC, but have you ever wrestle a snake?, and what do you think the knifer is going to do whne you tie up both your hands?

You seem to be on the path, IMO I think you need more than 3 years, and kill the marketing ploy, as you say this stuff can get you killed.
Train hard it's the only way...
peace

[themorningstar]

rapid panda, who's yourteacher in doce pares ?

[DJColdfusion]

Rene,

Tuhon Tom Keir (SP??) was a world-class Greco guy. Ricco Chiparelli and the guys over at Raw knew who he was before the first time he showed up at a Gathering of the Pack with the Dog Brothers (He reportedly dislocated Eric Knaus' knee when they fell out of bounds during their match).

[Crucible]

ReneH,
A few questions
How is your material diffrent from others who emphasize "live" or "progressive" training with knife tactics, such as Jerry Wetzel and Karl Tanswell? Have you veiwed their material? Can you tell us who your FMA and weapon/knife intructors have been? Thank you.

[ReneH]

Crucible,

Sorry it took so late for me to reply, this is my work week so I do not have time to chit chat. I did FMA with Paul Vunak for couple years to answer your question. As far as I know I'm still on the instructors list on his website.

I have not seen Jerry's material nor Karl's Tarnsewell's stuff but I hear it has elements of clinching, perhaps from Greco.

I took a hard look into the material that I was taught and decided to put it through real world tests, namely had a couple people that had served time in jail, one 8 years the other 10 years. Both had seen and been victims of shank assaults while in jail/prison. Suffice it to say, most of the FMA techniques that I had learned did not materialize at any one instance during this testing period. I am not knocking the FMA's, perhaps there are elements that I have not seen that may in fact work under those stated conditions but I haven't seen any. In fact, I had all of my students try their luck against the two gentleman who had served time and it was disastrous time after time. So after some R&d we had these two guys come in and try to "kill" us and this time they were stunned. They wished they'd known this material while they were serving time.

I have to add that there are some people within PFS that can attest to my skill with the knife so that I firmly believe that is not the problem. In addition to that, I have been the victim of an assault with a screwdriver outside a convinience store as well as one of my students, who was also assualted outside a convinience store. Both of us not only survived but incredibly,also came out of it without a scratch; but mentally, I have not been able to walk out of my truck on any parking lot without scanning over and around my shoulder. These encounters have had a complete impact on my knife close quarter defense tactics to the degree that everything we have done in the past was entirely revamped.

One of the things that had to pass the "mustard" so to speak was that the tactics/techniques employed had to be extremely simple; that they could be used against a larger person; they could be applied when you are not prepared; that it could "fit in" within the dynamics of the whole knife assault, etc. Also, that you can unleash violence instantly without allowing the attackers free hand to come into play. Plus other things that I don't have time to print.

Lastly, we found that in almost all instances having a two-handed grip on the knife hand is a must. It is as truth as day. However, there are some instances that it is possible to control the knife with one hand in the whole dynamics of defending in real time. Those situations do occurr.

All you have to do is give someone a "knife" and tell him to try to "kill" you with it! And I don't mean "spar" you with it. It has to be a total annihilation effort on the attacker's part in order for you to get the "real' experience. That is all....