Sayoc Kali system or close equivalent

[Airyu]

Hello All,

Price is always a major concern for many martial artists, myself included. There is always a way to train in Sayoc Kali, if someone is sincerely trying to train. I have been traveling to Europe to work with the new training groups, in Poland, Sweden, Belgium, and this year heading to the U.K., as well. Each of these groups offer training at reasonable rates comparable to others teaching in their area. So stop in and train with them.

Seminars are an intense opportunity to train with individuals who have put serious time into their practiced art. A normal Sayoc Kali seminar weekend runs 10 + hours, so what does this break down to? 10£ /hour! This is less than $20/hour, most plumbers, HVAC, Electricians, Carpentry, mechanics etc , charge way more for their time than this, so I think you always need to put the value into perspective with what you are actually getting back from the event, or training.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[LabanB]

"Not even the top man"

Hi All,

For all of Tom Keirs students: Go back and read what *I* stated; if you can find anything against him personally, let me know - I missed it myself.

When Sayoc kali first came to the UK, just two weeks before last Christmas!, the price was £95 and included Chris Sayoc and Tom Keir (plus others). I know that Chris Sayoc named his seminar fees (i.e. £100 per person which on advice was reduced to £95!!), so when I say not even the top man, what I mean is the first seminar had the top man and some of his top instructors and cost less than seminar with his top instructor does now 13 months later.

I agree, there is something wrong with this picture...;-)

Oh, BTW I did state the price "appears" to be because of the movie. And yes they are being selective. If you are willing to spend the money you are in. As one UK isntructor said to me "If you're daft enough to pay it, they'll charge the same next time". And lo, and behold..;-)

And as for a refund, when Tom Keir hosts and charges for the seminar, I would expect a refund from him to unsatisfied participants. Whilst others are hosting him, and it hasn't just been Krishna, you cannot guarantee a refund from the man, as you (the participant), aren't paying him anything.

Bill

[Airyu]

Hello Mr. Lowery,

Yes, the first seminar in the UK had a variety of Sayoc Instructors able to go and show support for Guro Godhania's seminar. They took turns actively teaching and working with all the participants, and it was a great event. Currently there are far too few Instructors able to get out and teach Sayoc Kali, and so there are less heading to any one seminar.

As it seems you are stuck on "price", what value do you put on someones skill, and time they have spent learning a martial art or profession? What is a good number? Here in the States, many seminar Instructors ask for $1,500 - 3,000, for a weekend seminar. These include various Gracie juijitsu instructors, Manong Inosanto....this can be a long list, but I would like to know what would be a good European number as well.

Gumagalang

Guro Steve L.

[LabanB]

Price

Hi Guro Steve,

Firstly, please call me Bill.

What price? Depends on knowledge, reputation, experience and of course, word of mouth.

What I have seen recently, say the past 10 years, is a sudden increase of the use of marketing, both positive and negative, to sell recently devised "systems". Sayoc "appeared" only a few years ago as far as most of us are concerned. There has been no "build-up", the system appeared and we are asked to accept that the money being asked for is reasonable.

I have trained in systems, and looked at others. The others all followed a well worn path. Provide cheap opportunities to train and expand the system and then give people the chance to decide if they want to be part of the system. Sayoc appears (yes, that word again - I am willing to see if the claims hold true) to be a franchise business .

After the first UK seminar people were asked to put themselves forward as trainee instructors - fine. I have been told, and please correct me here, that the deal is you sign up with an American instructor who acts as a mentor. The trainee instructor is "given" an area over which he has authority to promote Sayoc kali. Basically a pyramid selling operation.

Now this may only be true for the European end of the system, but the majority of information I've seen about the system concerns buying into it in very real monetary sense. The emphasis has been on cash, again what is the price in Europe? How about the prices in the UK? Generally speaking you get away with charging more the further south you travel, I did state that in Edinburgh Rick Young charge about £75 for Guro I and in London Bob Breen charges about £100. So in the Midlands around £50 has been expected.
Recently, and we've seen it in the North East, there has been a push to increase charges for seminars without any real backing for their increase. If you are hosting a well know name, you can charge more; if you are charging for someone popular you can do likewise; again Sayoc kali seems to have appeared with a high price tag because the practitioners value it highly. Thats fine, but you need to justify the high cost before you charge it,.

Bill

[Joe Hubbard]

Hi Husanyan

After reading through your posts, I would highly recommend that you check out Hock Hochheim’s Scientific Fighting Congress. Now, this is probably going to sound like an infomercial, so brace yourself. I am Hock’s chief rep in the UK and am based in Kingston, Surrey, which is still within the Greater London area. Please check out my site for further info:

https://www.functionalfighting.com

The Congress is a blend of military combatives, police defensive tactics and selected and filtered strategies from various martial arts systems. The martial influence mainly comes from the Pacific Island arts (Filipino, Indo, Japanese, Hawaiian and Polynesia). The SFC founder, Hock Hochheim studied under both Remy Presas and his brother Ernesto Presas. He has Black Belts up the yin/yang in all of these systems, yet has solidified this hand, stick and knife material into a highly effective street combative system. If you want more information, please shoot me an e-mail at your convenience.

Best

Joe

[Airyu]

Hello Bill,

Actually one of the largest explosions in advertising and communication, has been the growth of the internet. Now it is instantaenously possible to reach out to millions of people by placing a website up. So therefore you can see the explosion of various martial arts everywhere! As for Sayoc "appearing" a few years ago, Tuhon Sayoc has been around a long time teaching and doing seminars in the USA. You can ask Manong Inosanto, about some of the early days, with Tuhon Sayoc on the East Coast. Also, I had the opportunity to interview the Senior Instructors at the 2003 Sama Sama, and the stories from the 70's, 80's training and seminar tours will give you an idea as to how long the Sayoc family has been training and teaching. Remember the 80's when Grand Master Presas hit the scene? Very few people had any idea about where he came from. (interesting note, he was a good friend to the Tatang Bo Sayoc and the Sayoc family from the early days)

With more and more people around the world looking to train in Sayoc Kali, training groups have been established in various areas. Anyone (including myself, as this is how I started training) can work to organize a training group. But, Tuhon Sayoc is always aware that the quality and reputation of an art, and organization can quickly diminish by the acts of others. As such, all training groups have a sponsoring Instructor. He/She is responsible for the groups training and actions. I have been lucky to meet great people and organize 4 or 5 such groups, and each of them will tell you the same thing, I help them learn, I continue to support them when I am not at their school or training group, and that they belong to a large and supportive family group that will always be there to help when needed. Ensuring the quality of any Instructor is under the direct review of Tuhon Sayoc and the Senior members of the organization, at the yearly Sama Sama here in the states. All practitioners are expected to come and train and be reviewed for rank promotion, or not. Again, quality is an issue and organizations built on a so called pyramid model quickly fall apart, just look at all the political in fighting in many of the major FMA groups. Especially ones where so called "territories" were dolled out, and then a new group was given a slice of this or that area. I have ( as well as other Instructors) have training groups in my own backyard and think nothing of sending students over to train with someone closest to their location.

Back to the price/value issue, on my end I charge the same amount wherever I go, as I place a high value on my time and efforts. (A normal seminar for me involves flying out for 3 - 4 days, 10 hour plane trips, 10 hours of seminar instruction, one on one instruction with the hosting Instructor, and additional training with small groups etc when I am there as well) Now you ask the seminar cost in various places within the country and I will point out to you that I was in Poland with Tomek Foik, the first person to step up and ask about having a European seminar, the cost was the same as when I was in Sweden, and then in Belgium. Yet, I have been back two times to Poland, and two times to Sweden, and been invited to return to Belgium as well. So what ever the cost being charged the "perceived" value that is coming back to everyone seems to be worth the effort/cost. As for Tuhon Tom coming back to the U.K., well there must of been something that is worth the cost, to have him brought back again? Or even me being invited to come over later in the year.

Why then does every art have to follow the same well worn path, as you stated? Or even to justify the cost of what I or others teach? If a student wants to learn Sayoc Kali, they can join a training group or even attend a seminar, to see what it is like. A fairly low cost method for an individual, if they don't like it they don't have to continue training or attending a seminar. Today they can even purchase training DVD's to get insight into the art prior to deciding if they even want to head off to a seminar. As for justification on value, look who comes in and trains, or recommends Sayoc Kali, Michael Jaco (24 yr veteran of the Navy SEALS), Guro Harley Elmore (Bahala Na and JKD stylist), Guro Ken Pannel (Silat Instructor), Guro Mark Denny (DogBrothers founder), Raymond Floro (FFS founder), Mike Mello (20 yr veteran LEO and Heckler and Koch instructor), Me (Budo Taijutsu 6th dan and a whole host of other arts and ranks) Guro Krishna Godhania (Warriors Eskrima), Manong Inosanto, etc. and this is just the short list! So something in the cost to value ratio must be there for any or all of these people to be recommending Sayoc Kali.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[Sun_Helmet]

Sayoc Kali UK Seminar

The UK Sayoc seminar that Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Sr. attended with five of the system's top instructors was an introductory seminar for those over the Atlantic. Tuhon Sayoc wanted his instructors to meet the interested parties in person. They were not all paid for the event, so basing the price on the extras is rather offbase. The instructor's plane fare was handled by the Sayoc family. It was all to support one another, show appreciation to their UK hosts and let the attendees SEE the depth of the system. Not very pyramind sounding when the top of the pyramid is also shelling out some cash.

The methods have to pass down to the students. Otherwise, you're going to get the other complaint of 'only the top guy can pull this off" .

Tuhon Sayoc will NOT be coming to Europe anytime soon, but we pride ourselves in allowing the system to speak for itself.

Sayoc Kali is not based on ONE person but the strength of the teaching principles and methods. If someone thinks otherwise, then they should just stop training Sayoc Kali because they will not be able to morph into that 'top person'. However, if one undertsands that the system is strong and gained popularity not because of the 'top man' but because the 'lowest man' can improve their skills if they apply themselves to the instruction given.

Sayoc Kali weeds out candidates more than accepts them when it comes to licensed instructors. You're not getting full instructor ranking unless you earn it. There's only a handful of those. If you think you can pay your way through- give it a shot...

Tom Kier is a ranked Tuhon in Sayoc Kali .. he IS one of the top guys in the system. Any one else that is a licensed instructor under Tuhon Sayoc like Guro Steve is approved to teach the system overseas, because of the way he represents the art. Sayoc Kali will not grant permission to just anyone to spread the family art. If you get the opportunity to train under him or any approved Sayoc rep... you're getting Sayoc Kali.

It is not the individual but the quality of the teaching methods. You're not buying a person, but paying for quality Sayoc instruction and information.

--Rafael--
"You are judged by your worst student" Tuhon Sayoc

[rayfloro]

The ONLY true way to understand Sayoc Kali...........is to do Sayoc Kali.

If you will notice, negative comments come from people who have no idea of what Sayoc is - and they go on rumours, conjecture and heresay........or what a friend, of a friend, of a friend told them.

Sayoc Kali is not a "closed" system, nor is it "secretive".......in fact, they try to make their system available to everyone. They make it a point to have "uniform standards", no matter what country or whomever is teaching it.........a definite strength.

The system that I originally came from have NO standardisation whatsoever, so there are a lot of "bogus" people purporting to be "experts" at it.

With Sayoc you get quality, consistency and a tried teaching progression. That's what your paying for.

[Reikon]

I enjoy Sayoc. While I do admit the Transition Drills can seem a bit goofy at times (Sometimes feels like it's breaking the flow or going against what you'd naturally do) I think it's a good system. I don't see how people can call Sayoc a closed system when they offer DVD's to help learn as well as free videos on their site, including the 3 of 9 right hand template.

I'd also like to take Mr. Floro's system, but he's halfway around the world

[rayfloro]

Hey Reikon,

There may be a possibility we can train.........I'm due to visit the US to teach some seminars around June/July........maybe we can get together then.

To add to the drills being "goofy" or against the flow........I couldn't agree with you more.........BUT........this is a STRENGTH.

These drills are good for breaking the opponents rythme, thereby creating "half beats" or syncopation in the attack........this really confuses the opponent and upsets their timing........I use it all the time :-)

[Reikon]

Hey Reikon,

There may be a possibility we can train.........I'm due to visit the US to teach some seminars around June/July........maybe we can get together then.

To add to the drills being "goofy" or against the flow........I couldn't agree with you more.........BUT........this is a STRENGTH.

These drills are good for breaking the opponents rythme, thereby creating "half beats" or syncopation in the attack........this really confuses the opponent and upsets their timing........I use it all the time :-)

That would be awesome

You're right it does, the only problem I have is it messes me up in the process

I guess I'll have to incorperate some of that when I'm just flowing and get used to it