SAYOC KALI where Pekiti Tersia gets it's knife skill

[Airyu]

Hello Salami

Yes, many arts...which ones are you referring to? Lacoste, yes, Lameco, yes, Modern Arnis, yes...Pekiti Tirsia, yes... I do believe just the ones that I am naming have the gunting technique, and some have follow ups but not espressly for the tactic of lethal entry.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve Lefebvre

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[treelizard]

That is the point that was being brought up way.....way ....back when this thread was started. It just won't die!!!

How to kill a thread
with apologies to Tom Robbins

Tell the thread you are going to the Junior's Deli on Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn to pick up a cheesecake, and if it goes away, it can have half. It will go.

Tell the thread you want a momento of it and obtain a lock of its hair. Burn the hair in a dime-store incense burner with yin/yang symbols on three sides. Face southwest. Talk fast over the burning hair in a convincingly exotic language. Remove the ashes of the burnt hair and use them to paint a mustache on your face. Find the thread. It will go.

Wake the thread up in the middle of the night. Tell it the world is on fire. Dash to the bedroom window and pee out of it. Casually return to bed and assure the thread that everything is going to be all right. Fall asleep. The thread will be gone in the morning.

[Sun_Helmet]

oh really?

LOL... what I really enjoy seeing is that salami tells long time Sayoc practitioners what they do by using some out of context pics of TTK doing some posed gunting movements. I think we all have posed pics of doing guntings. In fact, the question in that series of movements may have even been, " Can you show us an entry using a gunting?"

Anyone who has ever gone to a Sayoc seminar knows full well, that the guntings are NOT taught in the seminars... it does not mean that targets of opportunities, nor the concept of guntings are not part of the Sayoc Kali system.

At close quarters, the gunting can happen AFTER the entry of the vital target as well, like the reflex action of the attacker who might be flayling away after they got hit.

Also, Harley trains Lacoste so he knows the difference on what is taught between various systems.


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[salami]

wow great explanantion...

[Sun_Helmet]

I looked back at the three year old post and see where I have to put this into context.
It seems some folks still could not see for themselves what Guro Harley was describing even with actual pics (albeit posed for some other intent):

...
for one thing they don't defang the snake. they go straight for the vital targets which are taught using "vital templates". concentrating on going straight for these vital targets using trapping as an entry...with the focus on the blade wielder, not the defender, the focus becomes effective attacking, not effective defending! that's a big change in mentality.

Note that Guro Harley is speaking of mindset. I placed the text in bold.

Let's look at the first pic of the sequence:


The Attacker on the left has an EXTENDED guard.
It isn't moving.
Some styles promote an extended weapon arm to gauge distance and to get the most out of the fighting gap between them and the other guy (in this case his opponent, Tuhon Tom Kier).

That means the barrier is already near or close to the centerline, and that the weapon must be dealt with.

...they go straight for the vital targets which are taught using "vital templates" concentrating on going straight for these vital targets using trapping as an entry...

Which the pics clearly indicate for those who practice Sayoc. If the weapon arm was not extended initially, the entry would be totally different. No barrier would be in the way. If the attacker was slashing in movement the gunting movement you see may not happen, BUT the traps would still be there.

Now let's move to the second pic (again, we are giving the benefit of the doubt because this is obviously some out of context demo for the cameraman):



The Attacker on the left still has not moved his arm, which proves that it is an extended guard. The weapon arm did not move into position, it was already there. Also note that TTK is parrying the guard away with his left hand so that he can enter into the vital areas.

In Sayoc we see this as merely tapping the guard out... with or without the blade one would still need to tap the extended guard away. So this move could still be done without the actual "gunting" cuts. The main purpose is to make sure the blade is in position for the vital targeting and to remove the immediate threat of the weapon arm...with or without the use of a gunting. Note that it would ***still*** work without a gunting cut, because the attacker's weapon arm is being captured by TTK. TTK is attacking the intended target, and the target focus is not the gunting.

This is where the concepts differ. One can easily note how people see things differently: salami focused on the gunting movement.
Sayoc students would focus on the vital target.

Whether one got the blade to cut the extended arm is not the main focus. Guro Harley explains it quite plainly in the quote:

effective attacking, not effective defending! that's a big change in mentality.

TTK's blade being in that position is merely a transition from point A to B. The gunting MIGHT happen, but TTK wants to zero in on the vitals.

In a seminar, Sayoc won't focus on that part - we already know every FMA has guntings... why be redundant and spend a few hours of seminar time doing so again? The Sayoc movements themselves already naturally positions a strong entry, with a gunting as gravy but not the focus.

more...

[Sun_Helmet]

These are the focus:

(note: pics were removed and replaced with another by salami so the link no longer works)

The thrust entry at the carotid grouping.

(note: pics were removed and replaced with another by salami so the link no longer works)

The common illiac.

(note: pics were removed and replaced with another by salami so the link no longer works)

The subclavian artery groupings.


To say the focus was on the gunting would be akin to saying this sequence also focuses on the choke, since the last pic show a choke is open.

effective attacking, not effective defending! that's a big change in mentality.

Sayoc Kali, from what I've seen and understand, is not primarily focused on attacking the incoming limbs. However, from the photos shown here, it's made clear that attacking the incoming limb is not totally ignored. If the opportunity presents itself, the Sayoc practitioner will attack the limb...but he or she will not stop there. The primary goal of the Sayoc practitoner is to attack those vital areas (heart, major arteries, etc.) which have the ability to drop their opponent...not to attack incoming arteries.

Yes, RM got it.

After rereading Guro Harley's initial post, in context - he was talking about intent and mindset. He can only compare from his own experiences how Sayoc differs from others.

--Rafael--

[salami]

you are missing my point

i am disagreeing this is something that distinguishes sayoc, other systems see guntings also as "freebies", as the applications always have follow up thrusts/slashes which are far more destructive than the actual gunting.

to say sayoc has NO guntings is obviously false as well

[Sun_Helmet]

you are missing my point

i am disagreeing this is something that distinguishes sayoc, other systems see guntings also as "freebies", as the applications always have follow up thrusts/slashes which are far more destructive than the actual gunting.

to say sayoc has NO guntings is obviously false as well

I just went over step by step WHY Sayoc does not teach guntings per se.
To refuse to acknowledge those points pretty much explains why you dug up the thread.

You are using selective phrasing to discount that Sayoc teaches guntings when ANYONE who has ever gone to a Sayoc seminar will tell you they are not doing angles of attack while the other guys slices and dices the other guy's arms.

To prove this point - why don't you post pics of Tuhon Tom Kier doing this in that same seminar you got the images from? If he was teaching guntings as a drill, then it will be easy to find a whole tape or set of photos that show him doing a gunting in sequence from several angles.

He would be applying a gunting set against 8 or 12 angles of attack correct?

In fact, if Sayoc taught gunting drills - it would be taught at every basic 3 of 9 intro seminar.

No one is missing your point, you're trying to fit a false premise into something that does not apply. You found ONE pic of Tuhon Tom Kier parrying an extended FIXED guard and now follow the false premise as if he was showing a whole gunting drill set. That didn't happen and that is what distinguishes Sayoc from another FMA seminar.

Guro Harley is an instructor of several FMA systems, so something so basic as guntings would be something he would easily recognise. You study FMA don't you? You can't see the difference between the teaching methodology?

EVERY FMA does guntings, why would Sayoc Kali choose to teach something that no one wants to rehash at a Sayoc seminar? The whole point of Sayoc Kali is to show a unique method of understanding the blade.

Since your perspective is fixed in its own logic bubble, you refuse to see it.

We'll be waiting for angles 1 -12 of that Kier gunting pic set, post when you get the chance.

--Rafael--

[salami]

...your perspective is fixed in its own logic bubble, you refuse to see it...

[Sun_Helmet]

The emoticon... the last refuge.

Let us know when the Sayoc gunting pictorials pop up okay?

..next...

--Rafael--

On a scale of 1 to 10, I rate Sayoc Kali a 10.*I personally, highly recommend Tuhon Chris Sayoc to anyone interested in learning the strategies and tactics of edged weapons awareness and self-defense.
Dan Inosanto

[salami]

The emoticon... the last refuge.

posting a lame advertisement quote... last refuge

[Sun_Helmet]

posting a lame advertisement quote... last refuge

Some would say it would be someone hiding behind anonymity, salami.

What makes it even more amusing is that you then consider a legit quote "lame advertising" on a whole thread DEVOTED to Sayoc Kali.

Now let's stop deflecting and get back on track shall we?

if the point of the drill is to teach guntings, than yes, follow ups are often neglected

Here's is where it sounds like you actually got the point of Guro Harley's initial post. You see, Sayoc does not teach these gunting drills. Meaning they don't teach guntings.

but to say lacoste etc don't see guntings as "freebies" (like someone mentioned it is to the sayocs) is false, there are always follow ups

Here is where you got confused.
The pics show TTK deflecting and cutting to get to the vital target. It isn't a "freebie" in the same conceptual gunting framework, since no matter what you do you have to bypass that extended guard of the opponent if you want to close.

i am disagreeing this is something that distinguishes sayoc, other systems see guntings also as "freebies", as the applications always have follow up thrusts/slashes which are far more destructive than the actual gunting.

At a different angle, he would not be looking for that "freebie" the same way you are thinking of it. He would just enter to the vital target. While a person who is trained in gunting mindsets would take that "freebie" and then follow up. Why? Because they TRAIN in guntings and it is in their trained responses.

Now, since you don't train in Sayoc Kali, you have no idea that we actually teach why some oft-taught guntings would not be advised because it gets in the way our entry.

--Rafael--

On a scale of 1 to 10, I rate Sayoc Kali a 10.*I personally, highly recommend Tuhon Chris Sayoc to anyone interested in learning the strategies and tactics of edged weapons awareness and self-defense.
Dan Inosanto

[lorenzodamarith]

As you can see, a book can be used as a shield or a rock or thrown (like a gun). Why in the world would you carry 6-7 large knives with you around town??

I have read a little about the Sayoc system in Mark Wiley's book "Filipeano Fighting Arts". The system looks very complete and deadly, I just can not understand carrying a beltful of knives around.
Thanks
jeremy bays

hello,

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

no. not literally. the harnesses can certainly carry a dozen weapons, but it is for training purposes so you can practice drawing from different positions. one (sometimes two) is plenty.

interesting idea though... kinda has a "conan the barbarian" feel to it!

thanks.

[lorenzodamarith]

If the rig is designed to "simulate" various drawing and carrying methods of the attackers and defender, why not just put the knife in the position that you are trying to simulate? For example, if I am working on a defense against a cross-draw, then I would place the knife in a cross-draw position.

It would seem that the rig would offer a crutch for the attacker and defender. If attacked on the street the hand would reach for a knife that is usually in the rig but the rig is at home on a shelf. This 1/2 second delay could get one killed.

hello,

again, the harnesses are for training. they are not intended for day to day wear by the average joe. it just lets you simulate the different postions without haveing to change outfits or much delay... just slip it in and go!! of course you will develop preferences to position, but a beginner will not know what they prefer until they have had a chance to practice the various options.

just a training tool.

thanks.

[lorenzodamarith]

Correct me if I am wrong. What I have heard discussed in other discussion groups and here is the rigs are based on combat style rigs from military service, but what I have seen in pictures of the Sayocs and heard through others who associate with them when they leave the house they are loaded in a similar fashion.

You have to know your equipment and train for the big rig which I believe is more military based and for the streamlined version for civilian style. I know of LEOs who carry and wear an issued weapon in one position because they are required to and then off duty they carry a different type of weapon in a different style of holster. They train differently to draw each weapon in a pinch..

hello

these harnesses certainly have all the elements of both milspec and civspec equipment. this makes sense since the sayocs figure they will get students from both sides of population. also, the military harnesses are designed to be comfortable after a long duration!! so comfort is included.

law enforcement tend to wear thier equipment where they do for a couple reasons. one, is space limitations. there is only so much a cop can carry and still do thier job. two, in a serious situation, if another cop has to access a piece of equipment from a comarade, it helps them if they all carry it in the same place for "easy finding". three, thier training officers need to ensure that each officer under thier tutelage is trained to the same standard at the same time, so keeping gear in the same location as everyone else makes sense.

thanks.