SAYOC KALI where Pekiti Tersia gets it's knife skill

[Harley]

Hello guys,
yes and yes, but i have to check with Tuhon before i can talk on this subject. Maybe steve (airyu) has permission to discuss this subject. so i will wait until i discuss this with Tuhon.
sorry.
harley

[Samurai]

If the rig is designed to "simulate" various drawing and carrying methods of the attackers and defender, why not just put the knife in the position that you are trying to simulate? For example, if I am working on a defense against a cross-draw, then I would place the knife in a cross-draw position.

It would seem that the rig would offer a crutch for the attacker and defender. If attacked on the street the hand would reach for a knife that is usually in the rig but the rig is at home on a shelf. This 1/2 second delay could get one killed.

I like the whip stuff. Anyone that has seen the movie "THE MASK OF ZORRO" with Anthony Hopkins can see that the whip can be an effective weapon --do not forget Indiana Jones

Thank you all for sharing this information with the rest of us. If I ever receive the chance to train with this group, I will be the first one to sign up.
Thanks Again,
Jeremy Bays

[Call Me Al]

Correct me if I am wrong. What I have heard discussed in other discussion groups and here is the rigs are based on combat style rigs from military service, but what I have seen in pictures of the Sayocs and heard through others who associate with them when they leave the house they are loaded in a similar fashion.

You have to know your equipment and train for the big rig which I believe is more military based and for the streamlined version for civilian style. I know of LEOs who carry and wear an issued weapon in one position because they are required to and then off duty they carry a different type of weapon in a different style of holster. They train differently to draw each weapon in a pinch.

I personally think the feel is different when carrying off duty and on duty. If a person trains and recognizes feeling a certain holster or carrying system has, they will revert to the muscle memory it has trained. It all boils down to training. I noticed a problem when I went from the street to Investigations. My scores dropped and part of it had to do with how I drew my weapon from the new holster. The weapon was positioned in a different way. I started training with both holsters on the weekend (Because I sometimes have to do uniformed assignments) and my scores have gone back up.


IMHO I think this is the way the Sayocs are. if there is not the weight of that specific knife in that specific position they know it is not a drawing option

If a person does not train, recognize the differences, correct the training and then train some more I know you will have the Indiana Jones response (And I have seen that response with guys I work with who don't).

[Airyu]

Hello Again,
Sorry it took me awhile to reply to the earlier email. I remember the first seminar we had with Tuhon Sayoc, and yes we did cover leaving the blade inserted and using it as a handle of sorts, in order to manipulate our opponents.
When I practice any of the Templates, I use any and all size blades that I may be carrying, as well as the short sword.
Many of the questions regarding the templates etc, are covered on the Sayoc Kali site www.Sayoc.com. Read the articles and associated material. Remember this is only some of the basic material covered and presented there.
As for the whip, buy one! I have enjoyed playing with the whip for about 16years and this is one of the best whips I have seen. Great training aid and alot of fun.
All the best
Steve

[Harley]

Hello guys
I have a custom kangaroo whip made from the "whip man" one of the top whip makers in the world, from new zealand. it is smooth and faster than a speeding bullet, when Jimmie Sayoc played with it he loved it, however, if you are doing anything outside, it does require alot of maintaince, and tears up the fall pretty easily. i have to wax it regularly and replace the popper and fall ocassionally. the Sayoc whip, which was a gift from two of my students (now favorite students, lol) has held up to some really hard training, both inside and outside. it flows nicely, easy to maintain and best of all came in custom colors, our school colors are red and black, makes for a bad looking whip when you finally stop swinging the thing around! all in all i highly recommend their whips, since i got mine as a gift i don't know how much they cost or how long it takes for them to make it but i have really enjoyed mine.
harley

[knuckledragger]

I went to the Sayoc site.what is so great about this stuff? Everyone kisses this guys butt like he is moses with the tablets of knifefighting .The guy needs to lose weight.it looks like that its a bunch of overcomplicated drills dressed up with psuedo scientific explanations,and medical and military terminlogy and Filipino language terms.Sounds like they sat down with a doctor to design the templates.It looks like the ultimate sytem if you want to be a pro knife dueller.i think it was probably a stick based art and the guy thought he could make some money by saying that it is an all blade ancient family art.Harley , ai guess you are saying that the Sayoc knife art is the basis of all FMA knife techniques ,right?Whatever..people want to believe in masters and guros and ex gurkahs and seals butthese people just tell people what they want to hear and they have loads of blind followers

[sikal]

Originally posted by knuckledragger
I went to the Sayoc site.what is so great about this stuff? Everyone kisses this guys butt like he is moses with the tablets of knifefighting .The guy needs to lose weight.it looks like that its a bunch of overcomplicated drills dressed up with psuedo scientific explanations,and medical and military terminlogy and Filipino language terms.Sounds like they sat down with a doctor to design the templates.It looks like the ultimate sytem if you want to be a pro knife dueller.i think it was probably a stick based art and the guy thought he could make some money by saying that it is an all blade ancient family art.Harley , ai guess you are saying that the Sayoc knife art is the basis of all FMA knife techniques ,right?Whatever..people want to believe in masters and guros and ex gurkahs and seals butthese people just tell people what they want to hear and they have loads of blind followers

I don't know if this is just a troll or not ... but I'm gonna say my piece regardless.

I can't speak to the history that is put forth by the Sayocs or any others ... I wasn't there. Maybe they're all full of sh** ... or maybe not.

I've never been one to kiss anyone's butt ... but I do try to give credit where it's due. For Chris Sayoc, I will say this, he's the best I've seen with a knife. Am I an expert? No. But I've seen some pretty good knife work and Chris Sayoc is exceptional.

As for his girth ... don't let it fool you. The guy can *move.* Before you go judging (especially based on pictures), attend a seminar and see/feel him. Base your opinion on what you see & feel live ... not on what you see in pictures and read on a website.

Just my opinion, FWIW ...

Mike

[thekuntawman]

well i dont want to stir trouble, but i thought bo sayoc is a student of the pekiti tirsia in the 1980s.

i know a guy don bitanga who is the pekiti tirsia black belt under bo sayoc. now, i met this guy when i was about 13 years old, so maybe my memory is wrong, but that's what i remember.

i use to have a few pictures of some guy in the sayoc family doing stick techniques, and i remember he was a chubby teenager doing it.

[Harley]

well,
i guess we see why he's called knucledragger! lol. let me try to address some of these topics...
As for his weight, only Tuhon Sayoc should worry about that. It is not something that seems to bother his ability in the martial arts. I'm 6'1" and 205. he had no problem with me and i'm told i'm fairly talented.
As for him being Moses, i think that's very funny and so would he. He's actually a great guy and is very repectful and courteous, I've seen no one "kiss his ass". Everyone treats him with the respect he deserves according to the skill level he has and the skill level he has instilled in his students.
As for his skill level, people can talk crap all day on the web, brag, lie, threaten and belittle, but the truth is i've worked with some of the best in the world, Tuhon Sayoc is a "world class knife fighter".
As for his art being a stick art, check it out, having come from a stick art i didn't understand either but doing sayoc you are taught things that make you realize just how stick oriented most kali systems are today.
As for his setting down with Dr.s to come up with the names of the targets in Vital templates and using Military terms, if you were keeping up on these posts, the Sayoc family has a large number of Dr.s , high ranking military members and clergy. All of this knowledge has been infused into the Sayoc system over it's history.
No, I am not saying all filipino knife fighting came from the Sayoc's, just their system and what Pekiti Tersia gained from their mutual training years, and of course any system that gained their blade work from P.T. Other than that, no one else has been taught the Sayoc system.
When it comes to my personal training, i do not believe in "Masters" or anything else you mentioned, i call people by the titles of respect that they request based on their system, however, i judge only on results. it just so happens that Tuhon Sayoc produces the results. I only train with the best, based on the results they produce. I am not a blind follower, and never have been, my instructors are a list of who's who in the martial arts and they didn't get that reputation by blowing smoke or ripping people off.
Now, on to the next letter....
yes, Manong Bo Sayoc, now living in the Phillipines, taught a more "public friendly" system, helping to spread martial arts from many cultures, especially the Phillipines. He did train with G. Tuhon Gaje in P.T. and taught it to the public.
As i mentioned before, the "all blade art of Sayoc kali" was not public knowledge at the time, it was only seen when G. Tuhon Gaje feed Tuhon Chris Sayoc knife tapping. And yes you may have at one time seen Tuhon Chris do stick, he is quite awesome at it i hear, however that is not Sayoc kali, it is a all blade all the time art. What you may have seen is Tuhon Chris demonstrateing P.T. for G. Tuhon Gaje, Gaje had Tuhon Chris travel with him when doing demonstrations and seminars, Tuhon Chris was groomed to take over the pekiti tersia system by Gaje, but Tuhon Chris turned it down due to his obligation to lead his own family's system. So maybe the pic is of Tuhon Chris, maybe not, either way tuhon chris and G. tuhon gaje were inseperable and both men and both systems grew because of their close friendship.
I hope i have helped answer your questions and shed some light on some concerns, and hopefully i have done it with the professionalism and courtesy that would make my instructors and students proud.
harley

[MikeJKD]

As always, Harley, you answered with class. Now allow me to be myself as well.

Knuckledragger,
Why is it that when something new and, quite frankly, amazing comes along, there always seems to be somebody like you around a corner trying to kill off everyone's enthusiasm? Have you ever trained with Tuhon Sayoc or any of his people, or do you honestly think you can have an educated opinion just by checking out a web page? That kind of closed mindedness is ridiculous. Try the system out. Go to a seminar, a group class, or take a private lesson from a qualified Sayoc Instructor. I'm certain that you'll discover there's a lot more there than just being knife duellists. And in the future, try to learn something about the system (hands-on is a great approach...) before you get all defensive. You know, maybe you're having a hard time with it because the Sayoc system makes you feel a little less certain about your own ability...
Mike

[MikeJKD]

As always, Harley, you answered with class. Now allow me to be myself as well.

Knuckledragger,
Why is it that when something new and, quite frankly, amazing comes along, there always seems to be somebody like you around a corner trying to kill off everyone's enthusiasm? Have you ever trained with Tuhon Sayoc or any of his people, or do you honestly think you can have an educated opinion just by checking out a web page? That kind of closed mindedness is ridiculous. Try the system out. Go to a seminar, a group class, or take a private lesson from a qualified Sayoc Instructor. I'm certain that you'll discover there's a lot more there than just being knife duellists. And in the future, try to learn something about the system (hands-on is a great approach...) before you get all defensive. You know, maybe you're having a hard time with it because the Sayoc system makes you feel a little less certain about your own ability...
Mike

[Airyu]

Hello again everyone,
How many people misjudge there opponent or someone's level of skill because of the way he looks? This is an amateurish way of evaluating an art. AT no time has Tuhon or any practitioner of the Sayoc Kali system declared that "they originated blade work" that is foolish to say and only shows an openess to experience new ideas and skills. "Absorb what is useful, disregard what is useless, and add to it specifically what is your own."(BLee) Fits perfectly here. Before you speak, experience the Sayoc Kali method, you will find it highly effective! If everyone kisses Tuhon's butt, I would like to see it. It is only out of respect do any of us speak so highly of Sayoc Kali and Tuhon Sayoc's ability. Do you speak the same way about Dan Inosanto? Because of his skill and willingness to go out and bring back new information? I think not, p.s. Mr Inosanto has also taken lessons from Tuhon Sayoc. There is som much that each of us do not know, how can we be blind to trying out something different?
Train Hard
Steve

[Harley]

if looks could kill!

if we went by looks, i'll be that Pak Serak with his one bad arm and one bad leg, looked liked an easy target, yet developed one of the most effective Silat systems in the world. For that manner, if you looked at any warrior from any culture, the skinny malnurished, fraile looking warriors would seem to all be nothing to worry about.
Obviously Helio Gracie was a fraile and weak man as well, and as everyone knows he couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag,lol. not! He revolutionalized Grappling, why because he needed to overcome some physical limitation.
my point is that effective warriors have never been body builders or tri althetes. They were effective and efficent fighters and that is what made them Awesome.
harley

[TKOU]

Attention Knuckledragger

Knuckledragger,
First let me compliment you on your open minded approach to training. Second let me be the first to move to your area of the country/world to train with you the Great GrandMaster of the Universe. The who is endowed with omnipotence and clairvoience. Anyone with the unparalleled powers of observation that you have demonstrated must be a TRUE MASTER!
Now let's get down to the brass tacks Knucklebagger: Do not degrade someone that you have no first person interaction with. Tuhon Chris is an excellent martial artist and was extremely personable the whole time we trained with him. Moreover the people that train under him are excellent as well. This says two things to me: 1. He can do what he claims to be ble to do and 2. He can pass his knowledge along to his students.
If you think "We kiss Tuhon's ass" then you really have not trained with any of us either. I resent you saying that any of my instructors kiss anyone's ass and I would suggest that you refrain from using that descriptor in the future.
I have never been around a group of instructors more willing to put their ego aside and train with whoever, whereever, and whenever in my martial arts career. These are all geniune men who enjoy hard training under the best instructors in the world.
I would also say that Guro Dan Inosanto himself speaks glowingly of the Sayoc system and training methods and Guro kisses no ones ass, son.

[Groin Grab]

Hi I've been reading these discussions for a long time but have never particapated. This is my first post. I have been reading about this Sayoc system. I believe the good things people have posted about it. The only thing I dislike is the cost of training. On the Web sight it said training was three hundred bucks and hour for a private! I want to know is it worth that much money? Even if the guy is the best teacher in the world can you really learn three hundred bucks worth of matieral in an hour. Even the seminar rates are very expensive and would cost each attendent dearly unless you have loads of people go to it. Is every one who trains with this guy just rich or something? Because I could never afford to learn his system.