Kali Tudo (tm) in action

[Max22]

This business of naming things is often just a helpful referent for your students. It may be something unique to your art, or something that exists across disciplines. The fact is this kind of thing has been going on probably for as long as people have been training and learning how to fight.

I don't for instance know what boxers might call the foot work referenced in the word zirconia, or how they train it. However, Guru Denny has demonstrated one way of doing it, and provided me with a way to refer to it, as "step, here, then here" is, can we all agree, clunky. In BJJ I used to weird arm bar that I used to call the telephone, but that I used so often on people that they called it the max. I didn't invent the thing, nor did my coach but people seem to learn better and review technique better if they can access it with concise references. And the naming and renaming of the similar and the same goes on and on.

EDIT: Just a note for clarification because I don't want any confusion. When I said Guru Denny has demonstrated one of doing it and provided me..."
I realized that this might sound as if I had trained with him. I, in fact, have not. I have watched the Kali Tudo tapes several times now and am starting to train the material, with my core training partners and students.

[Crafty Dog]

At the moment the multimedia page of our website (which is where we keep promo clips) is giving me some problems so until it is fixed, certain points will need to wait their elucidation.

For now, here's this:

"The point that seems elusive for some (and perhaps the failure of communication is my responsibility in whole or part) is that the Zirconia
is much more than the one motion of front hand up the center while the rear foot steps to the forward outside diagonal."

Having stated this point more than once, I am tempted simply to move on, but will take one more stab at it by quoting Max22 who I think gets it exactly right:

"The punch isn't a zirconia, its the quick angled outside step, and the following step inward on the new (hopefully) unprotected angle".

As Tanto astutely notes in follow up, zirconia mean "fake diamond"-- and the technique cluster involved is named the zirconia because it is a transition through a false lead while cutting through what we call "the outside diamond triangle" --FALSE lead and outside DIAMOND= zirconia. The front hand ultimately is the transition to and through the false lead and the load of the crashing angular attack on "the new (hopefully) unprotected angle" which it loads and initiates.

Frankly, IMHO I think that distinctive from a Fitzsimmons shift, or any MT I have seen-- and it makes sense to me to have a name for it when speaking to students/practitioners/fighters of DBMA because it communicates to them where they are on the larger footwork matrix through which most of our triangular footwork is filtered..

That the crashing angular attack on an unprotected angle was not necessary here because Chuck got dropped simply is NOT relevant to the ONLY point I have intended to make here all along-- the the initial movement of the Zirconia is successfully shown here. MY ORIGINAL POST STATED "For those of you who have seen our first Kali Tudo (tm) DVD". If you haven't seen it, well then my point here will be harder to grasp.

For my apparent lack of clarity in my first post which gave some an impression which I did not intend-- I am sorry, but I have already tightened up on this a number of times now I feel the point needs no further repetition.

Time permitting, more tomorrow , , ,

The Adventure continues!
CD

[fire cobra]

I wonder if Shogun thought of it being from Kali Tudo(or anything else for that matter) or as I suspect the only thought he had was " Im guna knock him out".

The reason that the angle step is rarely seen anymore in Muay Thai is simple to grasp(unlike the step itself) and that is that it rarely works against a good fighter.

All the slower footwork was dropped from modern day Muay Thai,angle footwork is needed more for weapon and multiple opponent training.

Personally I belive the motive behind the OP was one of trying to point people to Kali tudo dvds,which given that I went to view them has actually worked.

[Ghost]

i love footwork like this fire cobra and really want to make this stuff work in modern thai boxing.

[fire cobra]

i love footwork like this fire cobra and really want to make this stuff work in modern thai boxing.

I got some "special ways" that would help you with that Ghost,wait till I make my dvd set and you will see them.

[Ghost]

I got some "special ways" that would help you with that Ghost,wait till I make my dvd set and you will see them.

will buy that asap if you do, been working on a few ideas myself, wonder if they will be similar, but pm me as soon as its out mate, ill buy that.

[fire cobra]

will buy that asap if you do, been working on a few ideas myself, wonder if they will be similar, but pm me as soon as its out mate, ill buy that.

Will do bro,and if your set is out first I will do likewise sir.

[Crafty Dog]

I wonder if Shogun thought of it being from Kali Tudo(or anything else for that matter) or as I suspect the only thought he had was " Im guna knock him out".

I too doubt he was thinking "KT Zirconia" as he did it. Not sure why this points seems to be so difficult for me to communicate effectively with you.

"The reason that the angle step is rarely seen anymore in Muay Thai is simple to grasp(unlike the step itself) and that is that it rarely works against a good fighter."

Done as described earlier in the thread by the MT people, I agree. :-)

Diminished chin or not, I submit that Chuck Liddell is a very worthy fighter. So, why did it work against him?

The Zirconia (remember Max22's description please) is not a technique to be done repeatedly to batter the opponent. To use DBMA phraseology, it is a "portal technique i.e. to step through the portal to the magical dimension where martial arts and crafts actually work" (c) The idea is to understand how to set it up and/or recognize the opportunities to do it and "take advantage of the advantage". Kali Silat can really shine here.

"All the slower footwork was dropped from modern day Muay Thai,angle footwork is needed more for weapon and multiple opponent training."

Which is precisely why I am looking to test and apply in the adrenal empty hand state Kali's claim of "consistency across categories". IMHO in the street often there will not be sufficient time to identify whether an attacking motion contains a weapon (e.g. a knife) or not and choose which set of skills to apply. Therefore I look for one idiom of movement for both empty hand and street. THIS is my mission with Kali Tudo-- to test and install Kali Silat empty hand idioms of movement in the adrenal state in the context of MMA.

This is what I have sought to do with "DB Real Contact Stickfighting" and it makes perfect sense to me to continue doing what I always have done, only now with empty hand for street, by testing it in MMA. I decline any and all invitations to rest on DB stickfighting laurels, stay within the patterns of the thinking of others, and such.

In my opinion people in danger will strongly tend to do what they have done previously in the adrenal state and for most people today, even those with FMA drilling skills, this means MMA/MT/submssion idioms of movement whether weapons are present or not. As was seen in our Die Less Often 1 DVD, a BJJ black belt (the guy wearing the "Tap or nap" t-shirt) saw our scenario training against a knife and asked to try against it. The double leg tackle yield 5-10 thrusts to the well , , , Sounds really stupid, but he was simply doing what most of us do in the adrenal state-- what we previously have done in the adrenal state. Its really rather hard to avoid doing,

Because in the adrenal state I have hit people with sticks using the Kali idioms of movement and have trained quite a few people to be able to do it as well, these movements seem natural to me and I have different thoughts than most people about their genuine applicability in empty hand.

"Personally I belive (sic) the motive behind the OP was one of trying to point people to "Kali Tudo" dvds , , ,"

Well, duh!

I am positing something that for most people is outside the box. Why shouldn't I be able open discussion by pointing to something real time that I believe supports an element of the theory which I am advocating? I came in search of peer review-- what on earth is wrong with that?

The Adventure continues,
CD

[Max22]

I
Diminished chin or not, I submit that Chuck Liddell is a very worthy fighter. So, why did it work against him?

This is an excellent question. And I think if people will go look at that clip again, they might see what happened. EDIT: (When I initially posted this I made an error as my memory of the event was incorrect. However it is still instructive. Shogun's angled step out allowed for an uneven exchange of blows. Chuck threw a counter left hook, but Shogun's foot work took him out of range. Chuck's blow was glancing because Rua was no longer directly in front of Chuck. Rua however had covered distance and landed his own punch with authority. )End EDIT Chuck was suddenly, and subtly open, chin exposure and axon stretching followed. The angled step violated Chuck's assumptions about where Rua would be, and that I think is the beauty of the step.


As for the angling step not useful against good fighters, I think this is simply not the case. If you look at guys like Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Jones Junior. Even Evander Holyfield used the first part of the zirconia (the sharp angled step out) to great effect. I believe I've seen this type of footwork used by Wand on a few occasions
too.

Addendum;
Sorry about my mistake on the way the fight unfolded. Hopefully the edited post makes more sense.

[Ghost]

im not quite good enough yet mate, in a few years maybe got a bit to go yet to get your stage

Will do bro,and if your set is out first I will do likewise sir.

[Crafty Dog]

Due to tech problems with our clip page, I have held off posting for a few days. The problems are sort of solved for the moment-- the clips are a bit small at the moment, but at least they are there.

Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts

I have only a few minutes right now, so I will be very brief.

To illustrate my sense of why rhythm matters, please see Crafty Dog in Action at 2:00 et seq (the double vs. single knife) Hint: its in the legs.

See 3:11 et seq for false lead (at 3:26, 3: 34) , triangular footwork setting up a reverse caveman (the "Malayu" in our terminology) see 3:34 (double stick vs. double stick)

See Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts Kali Tudo: Running Dog Game promo clip at :38 et seq where Manong Kalimba does pretty much the same thing on me empty hand.

See the Staff promo clip for "the Malayu" stroke done as it was taught to me by GT Gaje for staff 1:29 and applied at 1:48

Time to watch TUF with the wife, so for the moment I will conclude by submitting the proposition that with this footage I show the same motion in staff, double stick and empty hand.

The Adventure continues!
CD

[Max22]

An example of the zirconia foot work? I'm not sure but it looks like it to me..

I think I may have found an excellent example of the step off, and step in on the unprotected angle.
YouTube - George Foreman vs. Gerry Cooney 15th Jan 1990
Hard to say, but look at 7:38. George Foreman steps off with an uppercut, and then turns back in on the angle, and well...you'll see. At about 7:15 the begining of the end occurs.

[Crafty Dog]

Nice find.

[jpv]

lucky punch!

looks more like a luck punch!


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[Tant01]

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