Kali Tudo (tm) in action

[fire cobra]

Woof Garland:

Tail wags for the kind words.

Woof All:

I can see that I need to flesh out my original post quite a bit.

Here is something I posted on another forum; of course some of the specifics are directed at posts made there, so please read with that in mind.
============

1) Yes, the left hand was more of a hook than a straight left/jab, but as far as I am concerned the distinction is a difference without meaning IN THIS CONTEXT. To score the hit he had to throw a hooking motion instead of a straight one and the hook is still "up the center" i.e. between the opponent's hands. The larger point is that the punch arrived because of the opposite hand-- foot action.

2) I can't say whether Rua has trained the motion, I only point to it as evidence that the first motion of something I showed in our "Kali Tudo" DVD called the Zirconia works. My life in martial arts has been dedicated to the congruence of Art and application and as part of that mission I seek to apply Kali empty handed. I put myself out there saying that it would work (as it did for me in my MMA sparring) and feel it fair to point out that it worked here at world class MMA level.

3) I have invented nothing. What you see here is quite similar to old school boxing's Fitzsimon's shift. That said, when I showed our Zirconia in 2005, I am not aware of ANYONE who was doing it AND I know how many people doubted it to me directly.

4) The Zirconia motion of our KT is a combination on some very aggressive triangular footwork (what we call completing the outside diamond triangle). Please note well that here that would not have been necessary because CL went down on the first hit, so what we are seeing here is only the first motion of something that has quite a bit more to it ;-)

5) For the historical record, the Zirconia arose for me out of a single stick combination that in DBMA we call "Variation 5"-- not because there are 4 variations that come before it, but because I vary the Ilustrisimo Crossstep footwork of Lameco single stick combination 5A by substituting on the first motion a forward diagonal step. The second motion of the stick is accompanied by a step that completes the outside diamond triangle and the third motion , , , well too hard to articulate in these final moments before I go to bed.

Small story: I was very tickled with myself to have thought of the forward diagonal step with the rear leg and over time have worked it along with the rest of the triangular footwork it initiates rather sedulously. A couple of months ago I found a youtube clip of Tatang Ilustrisimo doing the same thing at a pivotal moment in a serious sparring match!!! A thing of understanding and beauty. Brian's comments about the importance of understanding WHEN are quite on point.

In DBMA the Zirconia is an example of what we call "portal techniques" i.e. techniques were are only to be done at well-chosen moments to create transition of structure and idiom of movement-- as we like to say "Stepping through the portal to the magical dimension where martial arts and crafts actually work. In these moments he is the turd and you are the smell. Wherever he goes, there you are!" (c)

The Adventure continues!
Crafty Dog


PS: If I understand correctly those seeing the same thing in Muay Thai, I think this similar but different in important regards. Perhaps I am mistaken (I have only the basics of Inosanto MT to inform me, plus some fooling around over the years) but the switch step/switch kick does not cover the same distance-- nor does it set up the continuations that the outside diamond triangle footwork of our Zirconia combinations does. Not saying MT won't knock me the fcuk out, just the IMHO what is suggested here as the same thing, isn't. I could be wrong , , ,

Nice post sir thank you.

On the point of the switch step in Muay Thai,that is not the movement I was refering to in my post,(the switch being a "on the spot movement")rather a outside step,this step can be done with a small step or a large step(the Thai person would say Kang nork lek or Kang nork yai).

The large outside triangular step can set up a round kick or a swing,the small outside step can set up a elbow or knee,this would depend on what weapon the opponent is trying to apply on you.
After the step is made the rear hand or the front hand can be used to punch.

The same step can be found in Grabee Grabong.


Just goes to show that there really is nothing new under the sun.

Best of luck With all you do in the future.

[Crafty Dog]

I'd like to begin by restating that I am not claiming to be the only person to have ever done this opposite foot-hand thing.

That said, please forgive me for quibbling but I am still not in agreement that kang york nai/nek is the same thing. Yes the rear foot goes to the essentially the same place as the first step of the Zirconia, but as you yourself note it is a two step process. Step, then kick/hit. In the first motion of the Zirconia, the step and the hit are simultaneous. The importance of the difference between the two is that this then biomechanically sets up an angular driving crash on what we call the T-bone line starting on the second motion, but that did not arise here.

[Ghost]

step and hit or step then hit is the same thing man, its a matter of timing and rhythm.
you can only step and it if the shot is there, its the same move with different timing.
you cant seperate stuff like that its too anal.

[Crafty Dog]

Well then, we disagree and that's OK.

IMHO Rua's punch would not have arrived if he had stepped and then thrown.

Yes?

To step then throw simply makes this a rear hand (overhand/cross/hook/whatever). To step and throw at the same time in my experience requires training it specifically that way. Applied in this manner the options for continuing the attack with triangles and triplets are quite aggressive. In musical terms, MT tends to 4/4 and Kali tends to triplets (6/8). Words tend to fail on something like this, it needs to be experienced.



Last word yours.

[fire cobra]

I'd like to begin by restating that I am not claiming to be the only person to have ever done this opposite foot-hand thing.

That said, please forgive me for quibbling but I am still not in agreement that kang york nai/nek is the same thing. Yes the rear foot goes to the essentially the same place as the first step of the Zirconia, but as you yourself note it is a two step process. Step, then kick/hit. In the first motion of the Zirconia, the step and the hit are simultaneous. The importance of the difference between the two is that this then biomechanically sets up an angular driving crash on what we call the T-bone line starting on the second motion, but that did not arise here.

My Muay Thai teacher(and Im sure others) taught different timings on this step,his main way was to punch/step not step punch,he was very small and light(45kg) and had 32 kos in a row against opponents 10/15 kgs heavier,so no denying this way of striking can be effective,however it is not to be overplayed,a good opponent or a good corner would pick up on it and the counters are simple.

Thanks for stating you guys in Kali Tudo are not claiming the punch as your own.

[Ghost]

these discussions are intensely irritating for me, this is a regular strike, i hate it when its then blown out of proportion and RENAMED and claimed to be something else.

guys you are showing us a technique which is decades old. deal with it

[fire cobra]

these discussions are intensely irritating for me, this is a regular strike, i hate it when its then blown out of proportion and RENAMED and claimed to be something else.

guys you are showing us a technique which is decades old. deal with it

LOL say it as it is Ghost,straight to the heart of the matter.

[Ghost]

LOL say it as it is Ghost,straight to the heart of the matter.

its just how i feel mate lol

[fire cobra]

its just how i feel mate lol

Yeah I understand that one bro.

[TTEscrima]

0 beat vs. quarter beat or half beat or full beat. Big difference.

Big difference indeed.

[Gongoozler]

In these moments he is the turd and you are the smell. Wherever he goes, there you are!" (c)

Nice line.
I had to watch the clip twice to catch it but whether it is an old concept or not, you've got to love good footwork.

[Tant01]

Nice line.
I had to watch the clip twice to catch it but whether it is an old concept or not, you've got to love good footwork.

Agreed....

I tend to focus on the platform but it looks like he hit his target...

[Ghost]

its not a big enough difference to warrant its own name.
just cos you hit on the half beat doesnt make it a new move does it.
hitting on a half or quater beat etc is a timing issue, in boxing we dont differenciate between the move in terms of name, its just trying to make things seem more advanced than they are.

0 beat vs. quarter beat or half beat or full beat. Big difference.

[Ghost]

thats fine and i understand your point but the problem occurs in the this case when its claimed to be the invention of and named by X.
as if attaching a name to it means you create and own it.

in this instance the timing in both variations are standard and generic across a few systems and are not in that way namable in a way that implies or even directly claims ownership such as
THE ZIRCONIA
which is a highly commercial naming. simply calling it something in line with other names for moves would be acceptable and obviously not pretending that they created or it comes from just that system

[Garland]

I have no ties to the Dog Brothers, other than I am a fan, and I have no delusions that anyone needs me to vocalize anything on their behalf, but I feel like I should say something for my own selfish reason of wanting to keep cool people posting here.

Why are some people so willing to argue over semantics and nomenclature that they lose sight over the good in things is beyond me. I am quite taken aback by this thread's direction, as I see a well established and certainly productive and revolutionary figure of the martial arts community being nagged at by an anonymous individual over naming a technique? Really??? Ghost, even if you disagree, try being respectful instead of presumptious and pompous...and if you must critize someone, please do it constructively instead of stubornly shitting on things. If you want to badmouth somebody for making their art accessable and, god forbid, being able to live off of teaching the martial arts buy making a paltry buck, then by all means go back to whatever cloistered/monastic life you wish to lead and be happy in your selfish, self-righteous asceticism.

I for one would like to attract individuals like Mr. Denny to this site to offer their insight and input on things, as well as present their new material if they so choose. What better beta test group for these things than a martial arts forum?

I wonder why, with all the bickering, backbiting, bitching, and bemoaning why I rarely see the big names (Ray Floro, Rafael Kanayan, etc.) I used to see posting on this site...Maybe more individuals like these would be more willing to offer some of their precious time to answer questions or offer advice or share material if the responses they received were gracious and offered something positive in return.