Silat???

[Hakoko]

I know this is FMA's forum, but being that FMA's and Silat are closely somewhat similar, I thought I'd ask the question here. Can anybody tell me anything about Maha Guru Victor de Thouars' Silat Serak? Is there and if so, what is the difference between the other de Thouars' systems (William, Paul, Victor)? I'm more interested in Vic's style. He is close by me, but am interested in finding more out first.

[sikal]

Re: Silat???

Originally posted by Hakoko
I know this is FMA's forum, but being that FMA's and Silat are closely somewhat similar, I thought I'd ask the question here. Can anybody tell me anything about Maha Guru Victor de Thouars' Silat Serak? Is there and if so, what is the difference between the other de Thouars' systems (William, Paul, Victor)? I'm more interested in Vic's style. He is close by me, but am interested in finding more out first.

There are actually 4 brothers still alive ... Pak Maurice, the eldest, lives in the Netherlands. All the brothers have trained in Serak. I don't know much of anything of what Pak Maurice teaches (or even if he currently does).

The other three, though:
Pak Paul developed a system called "Bukti Negara" from Serak. He hasn't taught very many people Serak and, to my knowledge, the only student of his who is actively teaching Serak is Guru Stevan Plinck (who, I might add, is awesome).

Pak Willem ("Uncle Bill") fell in love with the Chinese Kun Tao at an early age. So while he was exposed to Silat Serak and while he has certainly trained in Serak ... his first love is Kun Tao and that is where he is focused. There are certainly elements of Serak in the system he has developed "Kun Tao Silat de Thouars" ... but he doesn't teach Serak.

Pak Vic has developed a couple of systems from his knowledge of Serak. One is called "Tongkat." Tongkat is pulled 60% from Serak, 20% from Pamoer Silat, and 20% from Soempat Silat (the system with the curved stick that you've probably seen in his IKF articles). The other is called "O.D.F." (Offensive-Defensive Force) and was developed specifically for law enforcement. I'm not sure if Pak Vic is actively teaching O.D.F. at his school (though I know he's taught it privately to some of his students there). I think (could be wrong) that he does teach a Tongkat class, there, though. His focus at his school, though, is on Silat Serak and he is excellent. If you're near him, I'd highly recommend going and training with him.

Regards, Mike

[Hakoko]

Thanks Sikal, is there anybody else that can give more info, I would greatly appreciate it.

[sikal]

Originally posted by Hakoko
Thanks Sikal, is there anybody else that can give more info, I would greatly appreciate it.

NP. If you have any specific questions, I may be able to provide more info :-)

Mike

[Hakoko]

Thanks, and I do have a few questions. Can you break down Pak Vic's style? Is it a brutal, streetfighting style, how effective is it in real life? I know that some Silat styles are more effective than others, but to what extent, I do not know. I'm more interested in the breakdown of Serak. I appreciate all your help.

[sikal]

Originally posted by Hakoko
Thanks, and I do have a few questions. Can you break down Pak Vic's style? Is it a brutal, streetfighting style, how effective is it in real life? I know that some Silat styles are more effective than others, but to what extent, I do not know. I'm more interested in the breakdown of Serak. I appreciate all your help.

Well, I can't give you a complete breakdown since I don't know the complete system. However, it is comprised of 18 base jurus (short hand forms) and 7 higher jurus (25 in all). Then there are langkahs (footpaths) ... I'm not sure exactly how many but I'm sure of 6, there may be more. These are the foundation of the system. Then there are weapons jurus too. This is just the tip of the iceberg but that's all I can really elaborate on because that's all I'm familiar with.

Yes, it is a brutal, streetfighting style ... but, like anything, it's only a tool and is only as effective as the person using it.

Your best bet for getting in-depth answers to these types of questions would be to visit the school and talk to Pak Vic directly ... or, better yet, take some classes

Mike

[wcskgh]

silat

i have seen some serak from that camp, and i mean no disrespect, but according to pa herman suwanda, they were missing many pieces to their serak,and some of the jurus were incomplete. i trust pa herman, because he never put anyone down,and he was like a treasure in indonesia.he never bad mouthed people, he just said that if what they are doing, is making them happy, then its ok. but the few serak jurus used in mande muda were different. also, pa hermans father founded ipsi, and the title pendekar came from ipsi. silat can be very effective if practiced against american style fighting. also, togkat is staff, and the people in other serak camps, bought all of suwandas tapes, then all of a sudden have new styles to teach. if whatever you learn makes you happy, your ok. but dont believe any american, or dutch guy say he is a master of cimunde, or some of the other arts, that are closely guarded. i have friends who were brought to cimunde village by suwanda, and they all said that the cimunde taught here is bogus. so again, im not saying suwanda was better, or anybody else is worse. what i am saying is that there are more masters in the usa, than in the rest of the world, so be careful, people calling themselves masters should be taken with a grain of salt.

[sikal]

Re: silat

Originally posted by wcskgh
i have seen some serak from that camp, and i mean no disrespect, but according to pa herman suwanda, they were missing many pieces to their serak,and some of the jurus were incomplete. i trust pa herman, because he never put anyone down,and he was like a treasure in indonesia.he never bad mouthed people, he just said that if what they are doing, is making them happy, then its ok. but the few serak jurus used in mande muda were different.

OK ... I know the 18 Serak jurus as Pak Vic teaches them and I know the 6 Serak jurus that Pak Herman taught and I've been to several seminars with Ibu Rita teaching Serak. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Pak Herman, Ibu Rita, and Mande Muda (otherwise I wouldn't have spent hundreds of hours training at seminars with Pak Herman). The Serak jurus of the de Thouars and the Serak jurus of Mande Muda *are* different ... but it's also obvious that they share a common root.

"Missing many pieces"? Hmm ... the answer to that question (if there is one) is *way* above my head.

I'm sure Pak Herman had reasons for saying what he said ... but they could have been personal reasons ... happens to everyone. Without the context of Pak Herman's experience (and possibly the conversation in which you heard it said) it means next to nothing and, for everyone else here on the board, it's hearsay. My suggestion would be, rather than take what someone else says as gospel, go find out for yourself ... or don't bother spreading gossip.

also, pa hermans father founded ipsi, and the title pendekar came from ipsi.

OK ... I'm not sure what relevance that statement has to anything. But as far as I know, the title of "pendekar" was around before IPSI.

silat can be very effective if practiced against american style fighting.

Uh huh ... and Silat can be very effective against *any* one regardless of system.

also, togkat is staff, and the people in other serak camps, bought all of suwandas tapes, then all of a sudden have new styles to teach. if whatever you learn makes you happy, your ok. but dont believe any american, or dutch guy say he is a master of cimunde, or some of the other arts, that are closely guarded. i have friends who were brought to cimunde village by suwanda, and they all said that the cimunde taught here is bogus.

For someone who "means no disrespect" ... wow.

Pak Vic and his brothers were born and raised in Indonesia. Yes, "tongkat" means "staff." I've had some training in the staff work from Pak Herman ... everything I saw was from the Cikalong system. Pak Vic's "Tongkat" system is stick work based on Soempat, Pamoer, and Serak and, to the best of my knowledge, he began developing it before Pak Herman's videos. I doubt he's ever even seen Pak Herman's tongkat vids. Willem de Thouars, who is a practitioner of Cimande, learned it from his father-in-law, Carl Deerns ... who studied with Pak Atma in Indonesia. "Bogus" ... I think not.

There are many instructors of Cimande here in America who aren't "bogus." My instructor got his Cimande from Pak Herman and also visited the village of Cimande with Pak Herman. Rennie Saunders and Mushtaq Ali Shah incorporate Cimande into their system of Gerakan Suci ... both of them trained with Pak Herman and I'm sure Rennie visited the village of Cimande also. There's an Indonesian man on the east coast named Tristan who is a Cimande practitioner ... I have no doubt his Cimande is authentic.

Had your friends who visited the village seen *all* of the Cimande taught in America? Generalizations are dangerous.

what i am saying is that there are more masters in the usa, than in the rest of the world, so be careful, people calling themselves masters should be taken with a grain of salt.

This statement, I agree with completely. But if you're lumping the de Thouars brothers into this classification then you're way off base. If you're not lumping them into it, then I misinterpreted your post and apologize.

Mike

[Hakoko]

Thanks Sikal, I did as you said. I went down and talked to the man. I am now a student of Pak Vic. I appreciate and am thankful for your help.

Mahalo...Hakoko

[sikal]

Originally posted by Hakoko
Thanks Sikal, I did as you said. I went down and talked to the man. I am now a student of Pak Vic. I appreciate and am thankful for your help.

Mahalo...Hakoko

Glad to hear it. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

Selamat, Mike

[thekuntawman]

i have a friend in indonesia and one in washington dc, and they are both bitter against the dutch. for a long time the native indonesian was a second class citisen in his own country. for a dutch to make great claims on indonesia martial arts, is like a spaniard making claims on the philippine martial arts, or a white south african making claims on something from the black south african culture.

i dont think its fair to put down a dutch because they are not from the arts culture. but when the indonesian wants to question the rank of a non-indonesian in the art i can understand why. especially when rank is given faster than how the indonesian gives the ranks.

and then my own opinion, looking at how much the native indonesian does not like europeans, just like how it is in the philippines, i bet many dutch did not get the whole system from his study with the indonesian people.

[thekuntawman]

read this site, which is about silat in malaysia

http://www.jakothmansilat.com/lightning.htm

[wcskgh]

sikal

what as i was reffering to with tonkot was some thing i saw in a magazine advertizing william dethaurs sialt system and certificsation thru the mail, by correspondance video. also, i met rennie at seminars,and also discussed with pa, what his students from america really knew,and he also stated that when people visited the village with him, the cimunde people would water stuff down, because to them, their art is like treasure. i studied with mike hands for a while, who was also in indonesia,and i know enough inside stuff, to base my opinion, and its not hearsay. also, pa told me once that a dutch guy corrected him on a sabetan system drill, and pa pretended the guy was right, to please him, but later he laughed. also, im interested in learning more from you also, i have no other teachers here, to study mande muda with. and now the person who host the seminars here, is not someone i care to be around, so i cant go to the seminars. believe me, most of the silat guys are a farce. im not saying all. and many are sincere,and believe they have the essence of the art. i thought for many years, i was learning good silat from pa, but i know realize, how the seminars are geared toward amusement,and even the jagabaya, only have that portion of the art.to learn cimunde jurus, or hand techniques 1-30,and maybe one full form, doesnt make someone know cimunde, nor does a 2 week trip to indonesia, once a year. i also know a guy named yani here, who claimed to know pa herman, etc,and asked to come to his seminar. when he arrived, pa said he never met him, and went along with it, and let yani demonstrate at pa's seminar. which later pa said it was silat learned in the university, that this guy knew, which is equivelant to wushu, he also told all the magical bs about the kris sword, etc etc. now yani is good at what he does,and from indonesia, but only the people really close to silat in indonesia know the difference. do you really think a country of muslim, indonesians, are going to give mostly christian americans, or dutch people, the secrets of their innermost sacred thing? 90 percent of it is watered down in my opinion. also, do you know any principles and concepts to each of these arts? if not, then something huge is missing. its not as simple as a few statements to explain the art. what are the principles behind cimunde, besides smashing, how many footwork patterns are there, how many jurus,etc what is the strategy, why does a technique work, etc.

[sikal]

Re: sikal

Originally posted by wcskgh
what as i was reffering to with tonkot was some thing i saw in a magazine advertizing william dethaurs sialt system and certificsation thru the mail, by correspondance video.

Umm ... if you saw a de Thouars talking about Tongkat it would have been Victor, not Willem. I know that Victor has a distance learning course ... but it's a far cry from "certification through the mail."

also, i met rennie at seminars,and also discussed with pa, what his students from america really knew,and he also stated that when people visited the village with him, the cimunde people would water stuff down, because to them, their art is like treasure.

OK ... here you say "when people visited the village with him, the cimunde people would water stuff down." Previously, you said, "i have friends who were brought to cimunde village by suwanda, and they all said that the cimunde taught here is bogus."

So ... which is it? Your friends visited the village and saw the real stuff and decided everything in America was bogus ... or your friends visited the village and saw watered down stuff so their opinion makes little difference to begin with?

i studied with mike hands for a while, who was also in indonesia,and i know enough inside stuff, to base my opinion, and its not hearsay. also, pa told me once that a dutch guy corrected him on a sabetan system drill, and pa pretended the guy was right, to please him, but later he laughed.

LOL ... I'd imagine that he did. If memory serves, Sabitan was a system developed by Pak Uyuh and continued by Pak Herman ... that'd be like correcting Colonel Sanders on the 7 herbs and spices.

also, im interested in learning more from you also, i have no other teachers here, to study mande muda with. and now the person who host the seminars here, is not someone i care to be around, so i cant go to the seminars. believe me, most of the silat guys are a farce. im not saying all. and many are sincere,and believe they have the essence of the art. i thought for many years, i was learning good silat from pa, but i know realize, how the seminars are geared toward amusement,and even the jagabaya, only have that portion of the art.to learn cimunde jurus, or hand techniques 1-30,and maybe one full form, doesnt make someone know cimunde, nor does a 2 week trip to indonesia, once a year. i also know a guy named yani here, who claimed to know pa herman, etc,and asked to come to his seminar. when he arrived, pa said he never met him, and went along with it, and let yani demonstrate at pa's seminar. which later pa said it was silat learned in the university, that this guy knew, which is equivelant to wushu, he also told all the magical bs about the kris sword, etc etc. now yani is good at what he does,and from indonesia, but only the people really close to silat in indonesia know the difference. do you really think a country of muslim, indonesians, are going to give mostly christian americans, or dutch people, the secrets of their innermost sacred thing?

OK ... so did Pak Herman teach Ibu Shannon any of the "secrets of their innermost sacred thing"?

If they had had children, do you think Pak Herman would have taught his American/Indonesian offspring "the real thing"?

90 percent of it is watered down in my opinion. also, do you know any principles and concepts to each of these arts? if not, then something huge is missing. its not as simple as a few statements to explain the art. what are the principles behind cimunde, besides smashing, how many footwork patterns are there, how many jurus,etc what is the strategy, why does a technique work, etc.

I never claimed to know all of Cimande. I know some Cimande (specifically 20 jurus). I'm not a student of Cimande ... wasn't even officially a student of Mande Muda. My instructor was given permission to teach aspects of Mande Muda by Pak Herman (pre-Jagabaya) and those aspects are what my instructor incorporated into the curriculum of Sikal.

Mike

[wcskgh]

missed my point

i said my friends that were in the village said the stuff in america was watered down, and pa said even the stuff shown to them was watered down in the village, hence what real cimunde is, is not well known outside of indonesia. as far as pa teaching his kids, i cant speculate, but if your lineage claims to have cimunde from a indonesian, i guess it can be traced back to cimunde village? and how long that indonesian studied there, etc. if you heard pa say, that even his father had a hard time finding pure cimunde teachers, before he found out that his own wife knew cimunde, and if uyin had a hard time, i doubt william sanders, and others, really have it. its useless to debate with you, i was once the same way. you are set in your beliefs. did you spar with any indonesians while you were there? your website says you spent some time there, and how long did you actually study withn bangban? also, shannon was american, not dutch, big difference. all im saying, is that even within chinese gung fu, they do not really share the secrets of the art. if pa herman had to pay hundreds of dollars, or wash floors for a year, to learn five techniques from a master, DO YOU THINK HE OR ANYONE IS GIVING IT TO US BECAUSE WE WENT TO SEMINARS, OR A 2 WEEK TRIPTO INDONESIA?