Silat???

[sikal]

Re: missed my point

Originally posted by wcskgh
its useless to debate with you, i was once the same way. you are set in your beliefs. did you spar with any indonesians while you were there?

LOL ... you're not debating at all. You're posting your hearsay and I'm posting mine ... hopefully we can *both* gain something from the exchange. If not, then I know I will have and that's my primary goal :-)

your website says you spent some time there, and how long did you actually study withn bangban?

Judging from the subject line, you think I've missed your point ... I wonder if you've even really read my posts. I never said I went to Indonesia. I said my instructor did. You visited the school's website and assumed I was my instructor. Flattering though that may be, it's not the case.

also, shannon was american, not dutch, big difference.

Yes, there is a difference. But that doesn't negate the fact that Dutch and Indonesians did intermarry and have children. You keep saying the "Dutch" wouldn't have gotten the real Silat. Why is it so hard to believe, though, that Dutch-Indonesians would have gotten real Silat from their Indonesian relatives. And, further, why is it hard to believe that these Dutch-Indonesians would have taught their Dutch relatives (or to Dutch friends when they moved to the Netherlands, as many Dutch-Indonesians did during the war for Indonesian independence)?

all im saying, is that even within chinese gung fu, they do not really share the secrets of the art. if pa herman had to pay hundreds of dollars, or wash floors for a year, to learn five techniques from a master, DO YOU THINK HE OR ANYONE IS GIVING IT TO US BECAUSE WE WENT TO SEMINARS, OR A 2 WEEK TRIPTO INDONESIA?

No. I don't think anyone teaches any depth at seminars ... I know I don't. It's impossible. It's a way of getting people interested so that, hopefully, they'll pursue it (either with you or someone else) and gain the depth. But why are you so determined to claim that there is no real Silat in America? Pak Herman lived here in America, had an American wife, had students who trained directly with him for years.

There are Malaysians (the Seni Gayong group, specifically) who live and teach here. There are Dutch-Indonesians (many of whom grew up in Indonesia and trained in Silat with Indonesian relatives and/or friends) who live and teach here.

Why wouldn't there be real Silat here in America?

Mike

[wcskgh]

my point

even in wing chun circles, there are hundreds, probably a thousand wing chun teachers here, who learned in china, and out of all of them, theres probably about 15 of those original teachers, who really know the sytam, so of all the lineages, back to china, there are thousands of students here in america, but so few learned from a teacher who knew the system in its entirety and correctly. it is the same in silat, just because an art goes back to indonesia, even if the did teach the dutch, WHICH I DOUBT. it doesnt make the silat credible, just because its from that country. also, yes, indonesian poor woman married dutch men, the dutch womens parents 9- 10 times, disapproved of the marriage, and did not offer silat to the grandsons. im not saying that all silat is bogus. also, i have the silat bukti negara and serk tapes from the dethaures and the lineage goes back to mas jude, if i remember correctly, i can look again, but according to indonesians i know, the lineage is bogus. also, im not stating hearsay, when it came to anything pa told me directly. i dont dislike you, so dont get the wrong idea, i would love to exchange info. i just dont believe there are many pure silat in america. i also stated that yanni was legitimate from indonesia, but his perisai diri, is university silat, and like wushu. just because their indonesian, doesnt mean they are respected in indonesia. look at royce gracie, he was a god in america, he was never a big deal in bjj in his country

[sikal]

also, im not stating hearsay, when it came to anything pa told me directly.

But it *is* hearsay. When you tell me something that Pak Herman told you, it is hearsay to me. When I tell you something that Pak Herman told me, it is hearsay to you. When I tell you something that Pak Vic or Uncle Bill or Guru Plinck or Guro Inosanto or [insert any name] told me, it is hearsay to you.

Do I believe that Pak Herman told you these things. Absolutely. Especially since I've heard similar things from him myself. But when I hear it from him, it's hearsay. Unless I personally go and find the sources of the information, then it's hearsay. Unless you personally go and find the sources of the information, it's hearsay.

You trust Pak Herman and that's great. I trust Pak Herman also. But that doesn't mean that he didn't inject personal or political sentiments into his statements. That's human nature. And that's not even counting the simple fact that human memory tends to put its own spin on things over time.

Anything that you or I or anyone else says out here is hearsay. And in the world of martial arts where so much came from an oral tradition and there is no written documentation until relatively recently ... all anyone has is hearsay.

Now ... back to the topic at hand.

Let's say you are right in your theory that most if not all Silat in America is bogus. According to you, if I travel to Indonesia, they're not going to give me the real deal anyway. So ... the closest thing to authentic Silat that I'm ever going to find is what's taught here in America by Indonesians and people who trained with Indonesians (be they American, Dutch-Indonesian, Chinese-Indonesian, Dutch, Chinese, etc.)

If that's as close to authentic Silat as I can get ... then that's what I'm stuck with. That's probably as close to authentic Karate, Wing Chun, [insert any martial art] as I'm ever going to get ... so that's what I'm stuck with.

If what is taught here as Silat suits me and, more specifically, if what a particular instructor teaches suits me ... then that's what I'll go with and I'll call it Silat if for no other reason than to give credit where it's due because what I'm doing is from Silat.

So in the end ... it doesn't really matter. All I can do is train in what's available to me and do the best I can with it. Try to find my own truth in it. (And now we're back to a JKD discussion).

So ... you imply that you've seen the light and found the truth and know what real Silat is. Enlighten me.

What is real Silat?

Mike

[wcskgh]

blinded by the light

i havent seen the light, nor am i any expert on silat. you may be able to find real silat, in indonesia, if you stay there for a while, not a few weeks. there is always some way, although it sucks how hard that is. anyway, im not saying that all silat is bogus, im saying its questionable. maybe your lineage has some very good pieces of silat. if you remember, our debate went forward when i told you that pa said your lineage was missing pieces. also, the lineage you told me of, is different from the dethaures lineage on their butki negara tape. which anyway, the tape does have some good stuff. i never said not to study with your teacher either.i would try to verify your lineage, and see how long they trained in indonesia, etc. also, if you make your silat work for real, then i commend you. again, if you dont know the principles behind each silat art, you are just doing techniques,and if your teacher doesnt know the principles, then i would ask more questions. its like someone who does taiqi, they may look good doing the form, have no internal qi,and not understand the taiqi classics. now if i know the classics, i can look at someone and know if they are doing the real thing. same as wing chun, we have the kuen kut, if someone does movements outside of the kuen kut, its not wing chun anymore. im not talking about adding other arts. im talking about just wing chun. so i know the kuen kut, and can tell what someone is teaching, if its real or not. same for silat and kali, if you know principles, you can tell. if your teacher doesnt know the principles, he can add anything and say its silat,

[sikal]

Some valid points about understanding principles. The problem is ... how do I know? To the best of my knowledge I have a firm grasp of the underlying principles of the material I have from Kali and Silat. Is it a complete grasp? Of course not ... there's always more to learn. My instructor has a more complete and deeper understanding of the principles. When I saw Pak Herman or I see Ibu Rita, Pak Vic, Uncle Bill, Guro Dan Inosanto, Guru Plinck, Dr. Andre KnutsGraichen, Guru Shamsuddin, etc. do their Silat, it looks like the same Silat I'm doing ... though each of those instructors has their own particular flavor. When I hear them discuss the underlying principles, they're the same principles that I know ... though each of them has vast amounts of depth that I don't have yet.

Pak Herman and Ibu Rita were/are Indonesian. Sheikh Shamsuddin is Malaysian. Pak Vic and Uncle Bill grew up in Indonesia. Guro Dan has trained with many Silat instructors ... many of whom were Indonesian. Guru Plinck and Dr. Andre are both Dutch-Indonesian and have both travelled and trained with Silat people all over Indonesia and Malaysia. If these people have not found the "real" Silat in their centuries of combined study then there's no way I'm going to find it in my lifetime.

You're welcome to your opinion ... but it doesn't hold much water for me. I have seen Silat from several sources and it certainly seemed effective when I saw it. I have successfully used my Silat in sparring and in real life situations. I have absolute faith in my ability to use and teach what I have trained. In the end, that's the only thing that really matters to me.

I can only speak for myself and what I've seen and experienced. Until I see Silat that is *totally* different from what I have ever seen before I have no choice but to have faith in my instructors and what they have taught me with regards to Silat.

The *history* aspects of lineage ... that's a whole different ball of wax and, as I mentioned previously, since a lot of it was oral tradition, I can't go look it up and verify it for myself. All I have to go on is the continued oral tradition. Does it get colored with personal/political feelings over time? I'm sure. Do details get exaggerated, minimized, or completely discarded over time? I'm sure. Nothing I can do about that. So I take what I'm given with a pinch of salt and two pinches of faith and I pass it on to my students to the best of my ability. For me, this aspect is more a matter of giving credit where it's due to the best of my ability.

Mike

[wcskgh]

good post

i hear where your coming from, but i do feel dan has real silat, from pa herman, but i dont think he teaches it the way he learned it. also, if i look back at my seminar tapes of pa in 93, the material was much rougher,and to the point, as compared to years following. also, pa told me when he first came here, his silat was taught as in indonesia, and then many people quit, it was to hard, so he watered it down tremendously, and started more peshahan, because americans loved that. unfortunately im screwed out of mande muda, my old instructor, who is a big liar, is the only one in ny who host the seminars, and after i had a falling out with him, i cant get material. the only other guy was mike hands, and hes in jail. so i cant train with ibu rita. but i feel her silat will be a little more pure than what pa taught. it may be closer to what pa originally taught. let me know if you have any tapes you want to trade.

[sikal]

Ibu Rita's flavor is, of course, different from Pak Herman's ... they're different people so that stands to reason. Ibu Rita is, in some ways, meaner than Pak Herman was. But I didn't meet Pak Herman until '95 so can't personally compare to his previous teaching. I have heard stories though from my instructor and other "old timers" in Mande Muda.

I'm not sure if Ibu's meanness is from the fact that she's not been influenced by the American commercialism ... or if it's just that she's a woman and knows that if she's attacked it'll likely be by someone bigger and stronger. I'd guess it's a combination of both.

She's excellent, though, and if you have the chance to train with her, I'd *highly* recommend it.

Of course, I'd also highly recommend any of the de Thouars brothers, Guru Plinck, or Dr. Andre KnutsGraichen. They're all incredibly knowledgable and talented.

And I think a recommendation for Guro Dan probably goes without saying :-)

Mike

[rooke]

Silat Serak

I realize I'm a tad late, however...

There seem to be a few things I'd like to clarify about Serak, that seem to have been misinterpretted (although Sikal did a great job clarifying many issues).

1) Tongkat was a system developed by Pak Victor. It uses stick, but its meaning in this context means "Branch". A "Branch" of Serak. It is composed of his thought processes based off of many other styles. It does have a lot of stick and staff work, but also has open-hand as well. Almost every form of silat has stick work. Silat spread (via the Madjapahit Empire) to the Philippines where it became Kali. I'm sure you'll agree that most forms of Kali have stickwork. It is not limited to any single style of Silat.
2) The DeThouars came to the US in the 60's. Pak Victor has been teaching Serak openly for quite a while now. Someone who says "They don't know the entire system" might be misled since they mostly taught Tongkat and Bukti Negara in the early days. It was a close-guarded secret for a long time. Furthermore, since most magazines and books agree that the DeThouars brought Serak to the US, it would seem odd that someone else would question it.
3) Guru Dan Inosanto, who has known Pak Victor DeThouars for decades, is currently studying Serak from Pak Victor DeThouars at the VDT Academy Headquarters and getting his guru-ship in this art. I am sure that he is familiar with who knows what.
4) Most cultures don't show everything they know to foreigners. That's true of Karate, Kung Fu, Silat, everything. However, Pak Victor had the chance to study from Pak Tisari Mardjuki who studied directly from Mas Roen (a disciple of the founder), as well as his Uncle John who studied from Mas Djut (another disciple of the founder). He is interested in making sure the art goes on, and so is teaching the system openly now.
5) There were 6 students of Pak Serak (the founder of the system). Mas Roen, Mas Djut, Moustafa, and 3 others. Moustafa was removed from the system by Pak Serak. So it is entirely possible that there may be versions of Serak that exist that look slightly different. However, the curriculum that Pak teaches is identical to the system currently taught by Pak Mardjuki in Indonesia today.

I am sure Pak Victor DeThouars knows the system. It is outlined currently in his book "Serak the Tsunami".

If you have questions on Serak, I'll be glad to field them.

Selamat,
Rooke

[Jkd_SiLaT]

Hello,

Does anyone here study the art of Pencak Silat Ratu Adil? if so, What is the serak portion of that art compared to the Serak of Pak Vic? Also, has anyone heard of Guru Art Rhemrev? I heard he teaches in Gardena,CA. What is his art of Silat like? I am looking for a Silat school in Southern California, any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[rooke]

Silat vs Silat vs Silat

I may be wrong on some of these. If so, my apologies to any offended parties, it is purely from what I've heard/read, so many things are not personally verified by me.

Pencak Silat Ratu Adil is a mixture of various systems, but does not have a majority of Serak in it. Serak compromises a small portion of it. It is composed of Setia Hati, Tjimande, Kalong, and Kung Fu San Soo. It stresses many ranges of combat. They have an official website that can be checked for further information. There are also 2 videos put out by Guru Rudy, that show some aspects of Ratu Adil.

Rudy Terlinden's silat that had a stronger Serak influence was called Adek, which was developed prior to Ratu Adil. This is taught by Guru Andre Gnustcracken (forgive the misspelling of the last name) who teaches up north and his brother Guru Hans (who teaches in the South Bay). Guru Hans, I believe teaches on Sundays at the VDT Academy. That has to be confirmed with the VDT Academy however. More information of their style can be found at www.pentjaksilatusa.com. I'm not sure what other influences Adek has, but it is a very strong style.

Guru Arthur Rhemrev I believe currently teaches out of his house. His style is a mixture of many styles including tjimande, serak, and various animal styles, as well as indigenous forms of grappling arts from Indonesia. His style is called Sikap Baru.

---
Now my 2 cents.

None of these arts possess the entire Serak system. Differences are seen in footwork and distancing. Furthermore, the platforms of Serak are not in any of these systems. The platforms that the djurus are walked on, possess certain keys to the application of the forms. For information on the entire Serak curriculum, pick up Pak Vic's book "Serak the Tsunami". That lists the full curriculum up to full Guru.

I'm not saying that any of the other arts are bad, better, or worse. Just that they only have a portion and variation of the Serak curriculum, and have utilized other systems to integrate into their respective fighting philosophies. What is better or worse is up to the individual practioner.

Sincerely,
Rooke

PS: I will say this. I'm currently a student of Pak Vic's. He has the most comprehensive knowledge I've seen.

The Ratu Adil tapes were very informative, and are a valuable part of my video collection.

Dr. Andre and Guru Hans have great knowledge of lines and body mechanics, and are awe-inspiring to watch.

Guru Rhemrev was my first teacher. His knowledge of locks, counters, and the blade are amazing.

Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with any of your choices. But I recommend contacting each school for information and to sit in and watch a class to see which suits your martial philosophy.

[Jkd_SiLaT]

Hello Rooke,

Thanks for your response. It was very informative. I am thinking of attending VDT academy also, How long have you been training there? Also, do you know if Pak Vic has an initiation fee, if so can you tell me how much it is. I hope it is not as much as Inosanto Academy. Also, How did you like Sikap Baru? Do you have the contact information of Guru Art? Thanks alot! My email is jkdsilat@hotmail.com if you dont mind chatting with me.