muslim fighting arts forums

[krys]

"Martial Arts are universally identified by the region they developed in, not by the religion that eventually spread to the land they developed in."


I do not agree with this Cavalry.
Silat was actually exported to most of the places where you can find it now.
If you talk to the pesilats there they will often speak of a "holly man" who came to their place and brought the art there.
Silat played a role within the process of the islamization of south east asia.
Many of the islamic preachers there were pionneers who traveled to dangerous and remote places in order to spread Islam.
These people succeeded due to their bravery and faith supported by great skills in the art of silat
Silat was also a way to promote Islam by providing lessons in self defence and inner developpment.

It was given a role according to the different religions and cultures.
You can observe pentjak Silat styles, which embrace animistic elements (
Kejawen of Kebatinan Java) or adhere to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or
Catholicism.
Actually silat Tunggal Hati Seminari and Tunggal Hati Maria was founded
by a Catholic priest (romo) Hadiwijoyo 1983 in Seminari Martoyudan,
Magelang, Central Java. The pesilat there have as purpose to spread the
Catholic doctrine.

The study of Silat can be seen in its salutation.
The beginning stance emphasizes three things:
First, is to praise the Creator. Second, Discipline which means you do not bow to any man. Discipline also means to obey the commandements of God. (Third, science, physical and medicinal aspect of the art is included there).
There are two kinds of Silat, one is the silat which everyone knows as the martial art or pentjak silat and the other is Silat rahmi or the way of the religion.
A true pesilat is expected to develop one's "inner self", a process which involves learning about strengthening one's soul, the faithfulness of one's heart and controlling one's emotions in order to become one with God.
This you cannot learn in the numerous McDojos of the West who bring down the arts...., and where the spiritual aspect is sacrificed on the altar of the holly $....

I"Kung Fu is called a Chinese Martial Art".
The right words for chinese war-arts is Wushu.

And yes, there are Budhist styles (one of the five styles in Ngo cho Kun), Taoist styles (Xing Yi, Bagua...), Christian styles (see Kuntao in Sabah: Tao Pings) as well as muslim Chinese styles (they have their own style of Xing Yi among others)....
and then you have the filipino kuntaw practiced mostly by filipino muslims....

I studied Silat in Malaysia before and now in the Philippines. One of the first things i was asked besides the reasons I wanted to learn martial arts (also by my other Catholic Arnis teachers), is if I believed in God.
I have serious doubts I could have been instructed had I been an atheist .....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis

[thekuntawman]

Re: Muslim Martial Arts???

Originally posted by Cavalry
Muslim Martial Arts???

That doesn’t make sense. Wouldn’t the term Indonesian or South-east Asian Martial Art be more appropriate, when referring to Silat?

calvary,
when we say "muslim martial arts" we are talking about martial arts as practiced by muslims. the religion is not practiced in the art, but the religion philosophy is used in the art. this way, we have similarity btween a muslim kung fu, muslim silat, and muslim kuntaw, etc. even though the art is different, the philosophy and approach to combat and training is different.

many muslims, practice the art for preservation of hisself and family, not as a hobby, or simple self defense, but as a religious and moral obligation to learn protection. the art is similar, but the reason is different. the religion also tells us, how far to go in a fight, depends to the purpose of the attacker.

so when we say "muslim" martial art, we are not talking technique, but philosophy.

for what krys said, many filipino teachers will not teach an athiest no matter what his religion is. yesterday i was told by a friend, that one well known teacher, who teaches the dog brothers, has only the requirement that you believe in God to become a student.

[krys]

"many muslims, practice the art for preservation of hisself and family, not as a hobby, or simple self defense,"

The Kuntawman is quite right.
The situation of some fiilipino muslims is quite tough in the islands and peoples there do not practice the arts as hobbys...

This is the same problem for the christian populations in the muslim areas, actually some christian filipino cults promote arnis... and it is seriously practiced....


Mabuhay ang fillipino Silat at Arnis.

[moromoro]

The situation of some fiilipino muslims is quite tough in the islands and peoples there do not practice the arts as hobbys...

this is true for all religous group in the islands. most people dont practice the arts anymore (with family history) because they find it very hard to make a living.

the sheer act of trying to survive and provide for ones family is greater than the practice of the arts....

[krys]

"most people dont practice the arts anymore (with family history) because they find it very hard to make a living."

You are quite right moromoro.

All my teachers are very poor...
Can't understand how somebody manages to feed his 11 children and his wife with 20000 pesos a month...
They try to teach the arts like it was given to them but it brings them few material benefits...

Many good systems will disapear.
Cimarone Arnis is a very good example for this, the last master don't teach it anymore and it will fade away with him....
I wonder how the state of the art will be in 20 years..


Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis

[moromoro]

the ave wage is closer to 5000 pesos a month now.... it is pathetic....

Cimarone Arnis

hi chris

could you tell us a little bit more about this system.. and you experences with it....


thanks

terry

[krys]

Hello Terry,

"the ave wage is closer to 5000 pesos a month now.... it is pathetic.... "

It is very shamefull when you see the lifestyle of the class A peoples .....

And you get this 5000 pesos wage only in Manila or the big cities.....
But even there you can find a katulong ready to do slave work for 1200 pesos a months....
In Mindanao (I am not exagerating) the average salary outside big cities is far lower.

My filipino in laws (better off filipinos, ranking oficers in AFP-PNP) once told me without any malice that I could hire farmworkers in Davao del Sur, happy to work 12 hours a day ,every day of the year, for....... 2000 pesos a months!!!

Cimarone Arnis was practiced by one of the lumad tribes (Cimarones? I am not so sure...), quite effective with nice empty hands....

"could you tell us a little bit more about this system.. and you experences with it.... "

I did not practice this art but once knew a guy in Mindanao who knew it, he is dead now, but I have found a journal where it also was exposed, documents at home.
I will send you more details on it tomorrow.....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[moromoro]

but I have found a journal where it also was exposed, documents at home I will send you more details on it tomorrow.....

thanks chris

[jushin]

Very interesting. They have pretty unique traing methods. That all I have to say.

[krys]

Hello Terry,


Concerning Cimarron Arnis the little I saw personally was empty hands showed to me by an old Illongo manong (wonder where he learned it...),
i.e. somebody gets you in a jujitsu wrist lock you desax to the side in order to break the lock and hit him in the throat at the same time, finger locks, also some nice toes breaks to get out of a leg lock...

There is an article in the Rapid Journal vol. 4 no.2 on it.
Actually it comes from Bicol (not from Mindanao as I said before) and was practiced by the Cimmarones mountain tribes....

The last known grandmaster lives as an hermit in the mountains and does not teach anymore.

The principles are:
*First you must whirl to the side of, or behind your opponent. Thus you can use your body weight, preserve your balance and place yourself where your opponent cannot see what you are doing. Continue whirling until your opponent is thrown or his arms are broken.

*Second, wrench his arm into awkward positions so that he can not use his full muscular force to counter your moves. Do this before or as you throw.

*Finally, with your fingers dig into vulnerable spots of his anatomy to confuse or disable him with pain. Relax and do not focus.

The techniques in the journal look very good, like some nice filipino judo combat.....


Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[moromoro]

hi chris


There is an article in the Rapid Journal vol. 4 no.2 on it.
Actually it comes from Bicol (not from Mindanao as I said before) and was practiced by the Cimmarones mountain tribes....



I will have to buy this back issue when i go to binondo next time...

Actually it comes from Bicol (not from Mindanao as I said before) and was practiced by the Cimmarones mountain tribes....

my wifes from bicol, i just came back from bicol, sorsogon this last march i asked everyone there about eskrima/arnis they didnt know anyone..........

The last known grandmaster lives as an hermit in the mountains and does not teach anymore.

yes Chris,, does the article tell you where/ which part of bicol?? he lives.............. Bicol region is full of mountains......

it sounds like a great art it is a shame he doesnt teach any more...


thanks

Terry

[krys]

" my wifes from bicol, i just came back from bicol, sorsogon this last march i asked everyone there about eskrima/arnis they didnt know anyone.........."

Sorsogon? Isn't that the place with the butandings (whale sharks), ( ou of the topic but just ask cause I am also interested in diving...)?

"i asked everyone there about eskrima/arnis they didnt know anyone.........."

My training partner's wife is from Illocos, he was there for two months and couldn't find Arnis there...
Seems the arts are diying in some parts of Luzon.......

"yes Chris,, does the article tell you where/ which part of bicol?? he lives.............. Bicol region is full of mountains...... "

I never was in southern Luzon....
The article doesn't say anything about the place,
but if you ask there about the Cimarrones tribe they may tell you because he is a known healer.
Actually a few peoples know part of the style and synthetized their knowledge into a style called Estilo Tres, but they are not G.M.s
The art of Cimarrones Arnis itself is no longuer taught....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

Mabuhay ang filipino Arnis at

Mabuhay ang

[Cavalry]

Muslim Martial Arts???

Kuntawman and Krys, I appreciate the mature manner of both of you responses to my post.


"Martial Arts are universally identified by the region they developed in, not by the religion that eventually spread to the land they developed in."
“I do not agree with this Cavalry.” (Originally posted by Krys.)


You do not agree with what? Is it that you do not agree that Silat developed in South-east Asia? Then where do you believe Silat was developed?


“Silat was actually exported to most of the places where you can find it now.”

Where do you believe Silat was exported from?

“Silat played a role within the process of the islamization of south east asia.
Many of the islamic preachers there were pionneers who traveled to dangerous and remote places in order to spread Islam.
These people succeeded due to their bravery and faith supported by great skills in the art of silat
Silat was also a way to promote Islam by providing lessons in self defence and inner developpment.”


I’m assuming that you are showing ties between Islam and Silat.


The main reason that Islam spread in Indonesia is because in the early 1400s the ruler of the port kingdom of Maleka converted to Islam.
I don’t know how large or small a degree that Silat played in the process of spreading Islam in south east asia, but that doesn’t matter.


If you look at my last post, I said “EVEN WITH the *STRONG TIES* between Buddhism and Kungfu, that is Kung fu being developed in a Buddhist temple, does anyone call Kung fu a “Buddhist martial art?” ”


Kung fu was developed in a Buddhist temple. Yet, you don’t see people calling Kung fu a Buddhist martial art, but a Chinese martial art.


The point is that, if Martial Arts are identified, then they are identified by the region that they developed in/ came from, etc.


That’s the point. - Chinese Kung fu, Japanese Jiu-jitsu, western boxing, savate (French kickboxing), Filipino martial arts, Mongolian wrestling, greco-roman wrestlling, etc.


You are saying Silat helped spread Islam (I don’t know to how large a degree.)
Kung fu helped spread Buddhism, AND Kung fu was developed in a Buddhist temple, AND in this temple these martial artists follow Buddhist rituals, traditions, customs, and philosophy. There are hundreds of Kung fu styles, and most of these styles’ practitioners in Asia ARE Buddhist, yet Kung fu is called a Chinese Martial Art. Even with these strong ties, are Chinese Kung fu practitioners trying to promote Kung fu as a Buddhist martial art so as to turn more of a focus onto their religion or religious philosophy???


Perhaps Muslim men who learned Martial Arts in south-east Asia, added their own traditions, customs, salutations, philosophy, etc. and even gave the Martial Art the name “silat.” Or perhaps since many people of south-east Asia converted to Islam, they obviously adopted Islamic philosophy. But since the fighting techniques themselves and the style developed in south-east Asia, doesn’t it make more sense to refer to it as a south-east Asian/ Indonesian fighting style?


This is the first time that I have ever heard silat being referred to as a “Muslim fighting style.”


“The study of Silat can be seen in its salutation.
The beginning stance emphasizes three things:
First, is to praise the Creator. Second, Discipline which means you do not bow to any man. Discipline also means to obey the commandements of God. (Third, science, physical and medicinal aspect of the art is included there).
There are two kinds of Silat, one is the silat which everyone knows as the martial art or pentjak silat and the other is Silat rahmi or the way of the religion.
A true pesilat is expected to develop one's "inner self", a process which involves learning about strengthening one's soul, the faithfulness of one's heart and controlling one's emotions in order to become one with God.
This you cannot learn in the numerous McDojos of the West who bring down the arts...., and where the spiritual aspect is sacrificed on the altar of the holly $....”


I don’t see what this has to do with my last post. I’m not talking about developing one’s “inner-self” or becoming “one with God,” or “McDojos.” I’ll assume that this is just information you want to share with members of this forum.


“And yes, there are Budhist styles (one of the five styles in Ngo cho Kun), Taoist styles (Xing Yi, Bagua...), Christian styles (see Kuntao in Sabah: Tao Pings) as well as muslim Chinese styles (they have their own style of Xing Yi among others)....
and then you have the filipino kuntaw practiced mostly by filipino muslims....”


When did people begin referring to these styles as “Buddhist styles,” “Taoist styles,” and “Christian styles?” I’m not trying to get personal, but are you sure that you’re not the first person (that you know of) to begin to refer to these styles as “Buddhist, Taoist, and Christian styles.”


“I studied Silat in Malaysia before and now in the Philippines. One of the first things i was asked besides the reasons I wanted to learn martial arts (also by my other Catholic Arnis teachers), is if I believed in God.
I have serious doubts I could have been instructed had I been an atheist .....”


I don’t know what this has to do with my last post.


But since you brought up a Catholic Martial Arts teacher, here is question: Wouldn’t a religious Catholic person naturally use the philosophy of his or her religion to guide him in his or her life and in whatever he or she is teaching.? But if this person teaches Martial Arts, would that then mean the Martial Art would be called a Catholic Martial Art??? If this person chooses to do this, fine, but it still doesn’t make sense nor does it seem appropriate. If this very religious person does do this, that is to begin to define a Martial Art by his or her religion, it may be for one or a combination of the following reasons:


1). to feel a stronger sense of religious pride by referring to a Martial Art alongside with their religion.

2) to give his or her religion a higher status and prestige with Martial Artists.

3) to put more of a focus on his or her religion.


thekuntawman says
“when we say "muslim martial arts" we are talking about martial arts as practiced by muslims. the religion is not practiced in the art, but the religion philosophy is used in the art.”


Thank you for clarifying. Now that is a statement that helps me see your point of view. Please see my above paragraph, using a Catholic Martial Arts teacher as an example. And please see the above examples about Kung fu and it’s Buddhist practitioners.


My main point was about the term “Muslim Martial Arts,” but I’ll just respond the following statements.


“many muslims, practice the art for preservation of hisself and family, not as a hobby, or simple self defense, but as a religious and moral obligation to learn protection. the art is similar, but the reason is different. the religion also tells us, how far to go in a fight, depends to the purpose of the attacker.”


I have not met many Muslims who are interested in martial arts. Almost all of the Muslims I’ve met are intensely interested in education, upward mobility, making money, taking care of their families, working in their businesses, etc. And about those that I have met that do practice Martial Arts, I doubt that the main reason is because they are Muslim. But these are the Muslims that I have met in America.


Perhaps it is because I live in America, and most of the Muslims I’ve met are from the Middle-east, Pakistan, or are born in America. Perhaps you are talking about the Muslims in Indonesia or the Phillippines.


Am I correct to assume this? You do not mean “muslims...practice the art for preservation ...[and] as a religious and moral obligation,” but you mean that Asian Muslims, such as Indonesian Muslims and Filipino Muslims practice the art for “self-preservation” because they live in a dangerous area.


It’s hard to imagine that Muslims practice the art as “a religious and moral obligation.” I’m not saying that you are wrong. I have never been to the Phillipines or Indonesia, so I don’t know. It’s just very difficult to believe.


If they practice the art for preservation, it is because they live in a dangerous area, and not because they are Muslim and it is a “religious obligation.” If a Christian person who lives in the same area, practices the art for preservation, it is because he or she lives in a dangerous area, and not because he or she is Christian.


Good luck to both of you, kuntawman and krys, with your training.

[thekuntawman]

this is from an essay of islam, by hussein al khanjar

"The lesser Jihad (Jihad Al Asrar), the external Jihad, this is the physical training of the man. In order to be successfull in combative environments it is essential to train and be at your physical and mental best, thus the training of martial and military science becomes a requirement to the betterment of the body and an aid in the development of character. People always question the validity of a martial art being used to improve character because from an external analysis the viewer sees only violence, but as one researches and digs deeper into the realm of the arts, it is quickly realized that more stands in the shadows than just kicking and blade play."

here, he is talking about the use of the martial arts in jihad, or the struggle, to preserve yourself, and preserve the muslim community.

on verity.nu/dawah/training.htm, the author recommends to study the martial arts to prepare for jihad. not "holy war" like some people think, but the responsibility of self preservation of the valuable life given to us by God.

"Martial Arts

It is vital to join a martial arts club as part of the training for Jihad. In addition to teaching you how to defend yourself and strengthen your body, martial arts develop self-discipline and controlled aggression. In some countries, there are martial arts run by Muslim instructors, but one can join other clubs if there are no Muslim clubs in his area. It is preferable to join clubs that emphasise on street-fighting and self-defence such as kung-fu styles rather than tournament fighting. You would never use high or flying kicks in a real fight but you may in tournaments. As with any activity, regular attendance for a number of months is necessary in order to benefit from martial arts. Many people join martial arts clubs but are unable to stick with them. Joining clubs that teach weapons such as sword or knife-fighting are also good at advanced stages. "

for the muslim, training for self preservation is not an option. a man who says he is willing to fight for what he believes, but does not prepare for this kind of fight, is a hypocrit, either because he is lazy, or afraid to really struggle. this is much different from someone who practice the art because he wants to be the next bruce lee, or to look like the people in the movies, or for appreciation of asian culture.

but in southeast asia, there is a difference between silat practiced by muslims, and silat of buddhists and christians. we just dont read about them. there is also, kung fu of chinese buddhists, and kung fu of chinese muslims. yes, we do not say "budhist kung fu" but most people will assume all kung fu is having buddhist roots. but kung fu from chinese muslims, IS called "muslim wu su". one example of muslim, verses non-muslim silat, is the practice of ilmu (use of spirits in combat, which is called jinns) and in the philippines, the practice of anting anting, or supersticious/unseen power. both of them are forbidden in islam.

[thekuntawman]

this is not known, but in the times of prophet muhammad (swt), muslim men are expected to practice self defense. in saudi arabia, today, even the prince of saudi arabia is a student of the martial arts. in every different culture of muslim people of africa, the arab world, middle asia, and in asia, there is the presence of martial arts practice. martial arts is a strong part of islamic history, except it is not the kind of martial arts practice we think about.

in my own style of kuntaw (kuntao), we do not have the sayaw/juru/langka you find in many other styles. we keep technique, strategy and physical training only. there is no rankings, just teachers and students. like i said, in the muslim world, the martial arts are for fighting technique and self defense only. not just because it is dangerous world that we live in, but it is the responsibility of the man to protect his family, himself and his community.