muslim fighting arts forums

[krys]

I again do not agree with this Cavalry.
" (Originally posted by Krys.)

Martial Arts are universally identified by the region they developed in, not by the religion that eventually spread to the land they developed in."

Here are a few counterexamples to your "universal" classification:


Pa Kua is a Taoist fighting system that is rooted in the I Ching (or Book of Changes) whose esoteric theories are encoded in the form of sixty-four hexagrams and are amalgamated with those of Taoist philosophy.

Six Harmony Xing Yi (Liuhequan) is a rare style that was preserved by the Muslim minority in China's Honan province.


Lohan (Internal Buddhist Boxing) is one of the five styles of Ngo Cho Kun.

Bul mu do (sometimes called Bul Kyo Mu Sool), Bul means Buddha or Buddhist, mu means martial, do thereore it means Buddhist martial arts.


[/QUOTE]
Wing Chun, meaning beautiful springtime comes from the name of its founder Yim Wing Chun.
[/QUOTE]

Martial arts are identified sometimes by their place of origin (this is the case of my silat), also sometimes by their founder or religion.




[/QUOTE] Then where do you believe Silat was developed? [/QUOTE]

Nobody really knows where Silat was developped, we only can guess, but you could really be surprised by the answer of some Grandmasters possessing
greater knowledge on the subject than we,


[/QUOTE] Kung fu was developed in a Buddhist temple. Yet, you don’t see people calling Kung fu a Buddhist martial art, but a Chinese martial art.[ /QUOTE]



So you think chinese people did not know how to fight before Shaolin?


[/QUOTE]
", does anyone call Kung fu a “Buddhist martial art?”
[/QUOTE]


As i said before about the term Kung Fu, see my last post for it's meaning, this word is mainly used in the west, in many McDojos, because of some movies.....
What you are calling "Kung Fu" has crossed China's boundaries to SEA.....Somes muslims in the Philippines (although many of them do not consider themselves filipinos...) practice it, and they will never call their art a Chinese martial art but a muslim martial art.

[/QUOTE]That’s the point. - Chinese Kung fu, Japanese Jiu-jitsu, western boxing, savate (French kickboxing), Filipino martial arts, Mongolian wrestling, greco-roman wrestlling, etc.[/QUOTE]

The point is that we in the west like to simplify, classify, rewrite things. Better forget the origin and phylosophy, it is easier to sell afterwards .....
The soul of the arts is lost in the process.
See what is happening with
MAlaysian PHILippino INDOnesian silat , the so called KALI......

Let us educate our little brown brothers we know better their culture than them......

This is the first time that I have ever heard silat being referred to as a “Muslim fighting style.”

Go to SEA and you will see, most of my muslim friends-teachers tried to convert me to Islam. They say the deeper practices of their silat can only be understood by a muslim.

When did people begin referring to these styles as “Buddhist styles,” “Taoist styles,” and “Christian styles?” I’m not trying to get personal, but are you sure that you’re not the first person (that you know of) to begin to refer to these styles as “Buddhist, Taoist, and Christian styles.”

I'm also not trying to get personal but you seem to know better what peoples taught me.... what can I say....

that is to begin define a Martial Art by his or her religion, it may be for one or a combination of the following reasons:

In SEA religion is often associated with ethnic groups.
Many tribes of the southern Philippines define themselves just as muslims and do not consider themselves filipinos.....
So when they say muslim silat they mean the silat of the muslims communities, silat attached with their cultural-religious beliefs.....

[\QUOTE]
I don’t see what this has to do with my last post. I’m not talking about developing one’s “inner-self” or becoming “one with God,” or “McDojos.”
[\QUOTE]

What I want to say is that if you want to learn true martial arts in Asia you have to believe in God ...

I have not met many Muslims who are interested in martial arts.

In the Philippines most of the muslims I talked with were interested in martial arts or at least were listening with interest......
Nearly all my muslim friends there practicce martial arts (don't that say all muslim practice).....

If they practice the art for preservation, it is because they live in a dangerous area, and not because they are Muslim and it is a “religious obligation.” If a Christian person who lives in the same area, practices the art for preservation, it is because he or she lives in a dangerous area, and not because he or she is Christian.

There is a link between religion and dangerous area. Muslims and Christian have both the obligation to protect their families.
I don't want to start a local religious war on this thread but it is a fact that lots of Catholic-Lumad... filipinos don't like local muslims (try to bring your bisayan date to a muslim restaurant....., could write a book on what I should do if a muslim touches me on the shoulder or gives me food....). Many filipino muslim also don't trust Christians... there has been warfare for centuries between the two groups
To give an example:
a number of quasi-religious, cults of Christianity in the Philippines, are collectively called ''tadtad'' (to chop), so named because they hack their enemies to death in order to prevent them from attaining a ''second life.'' They fight Muslims and/or communists. These peoples are often involved in the art of Arnis and some have their own styles.
The same kind of groups exist on the muslim side (see Abbu Sayaf bandits,.....).

Just hope I was not offensive, this is not my intention.

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[krys]

one example of muslim, verses non-muslim silat, is the practice of ilmu (use of spirits in combat, which is called jinns) and in the philippines, the practice of anting anting, or supersticious/unseen power. both of them are forbidden in islam.

With all respect kuntawman, I appreciate what you usually say, but this is not always true and sorcery is forbidden both by Islam and Christian religion. .

My own knowledge on Ilmu is very limited so I can only repeat what I was told.
Only poor forms of silat use the jinns in combat.
True Ilmu comes from gods protection alone, it is provided by our faith.... Illmu is from God and uses coordination between you and the creator. You use the inner power like ch'i which comes from breathing.

Some pesilat in the malay world engage in sorcery (i.e forms of possession by jinns among other). I don't know how if it is accepted in Hinduisms, as Hindu silat uses lots of "magical" practices....
Even in the west I heard of some foolish instructors who go through invocation rituals of the spirits of dead warriors and animals to help them in Combat....

If someone advises you to invoke these entities leave immediatly as it will have dire consequences......

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[Paulsilat]

Kuntawman,

Like Krys states, the use of Ilmus Kabatin doesn't rely of the use of Jinns. This may be the case in many Silat systems, but the true Ilmus relies purely on the faith in God almighty.

Your justification about Muslim Martial Arts (I don't beleive there is such a thing) being practiced for defence of family etc... is a Paradox if you look at all your claims. As a Muslim. you should have faith that God will protect you (If you TRULY have faith, and hence wont need fighting arts at all). As for Muslim Silat, let me just point out that Silat outdates Islam by many, many centuries. What you are reffering to is adopting an existng fighting system, or combination of systems, and applying Islamic principles to it. This doesn't make it a Muslim Martial art, just Muslims practicing Silat with Muslim beliefs.

By stating that Ilmus only relies on Jinns alone, makes me question the level of Silat that you are at, and hence question the rest of your claims relating to Silat.

Regards
PaulSilat

[haumana2000]

I vaguely remember a saying the my uncle Joe used to say (if i can get this right) Palataya sa bathala, palataya sa sirili, which I think he used to say as faith in god to protect me from evil, faith in myself to protect me from man. I always thought it was kinda cool, used to help me when I would have bad dreams as a kid, id 'say it.

[Cavalry]

I typed up most of this post a while ago, but got busy with other things, so I’m posting it now.


To, “thekuntawman,” this may sound rude. But over 50% of your last two posts seem to add ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I read your paragraphs and the quotes you use, and I have to ask myself, “WHAT IS THIS PERSON’S POINT?”

What is his point? What is he trying to say?

You include many general statements.

Please before you reply, ask yourself the following questions:
Is what I’m saying really necessary?
Will the person reading this understand my point?
Am I being clear?


You can do the following, eg. My points are 1 (one point)....2..(another point)...and so on...

I am not saying this to sound rude, but so that I can more clearly understand what your points are.


[QUOTE] from the kuntawman
this is from an essay of islam, by hussein al khanjar

"The lesser Jihad (Jihad Al Asrar), the external Jihad, this is the physical training of the man. In order to be successfull in combative environments it is essential to train and be at your physical and mental best, thus the training of martial and military science becomes a requirement to the betterment of the body and an aid in the development of character. People always question the validity of a martial art being used to improve character because from an external analysis the viewer sees only violence, but as one researches and digs deeper into the realm of the arts, it is quickly realized that more stands in the shadows than just kicking and blade play."

here, he is talking about the use of the martial arts in jihad, or the struggle, to preserve yourself, and preserve the muslim community.

on verity.nu/dawah/training.htm, the author recommends to study the martial arts to prepare for jihad. not "holy war" like some people think, but the responsibility of self preservation of the valuable life given to us by God.

So what? What is the point of you showing this quote? A martial artist who is Muslim says that it is beneficial for Muslims to train in Martial Arts, and that in order to be successful in combat one must do their best in training. These are general statements.

In order to be successfull in combative environments it is essential to train and be at your physical and mental best, thus the training of martial and military science becomes a requirement to the betterment of the body and an aid in the development of character.

Obviously, if one muse be successful in a combative environment, one must do their physical and mental best in training, and martial science becomes a requirement. Martial arts training will better ones character. These are general statements.

People always question the validity of a martial art being used to improve character because from an external analysis the viewer sees only violence, but as one researches and digs deeper into the realm of the arts, it is quickly realized that more stands in the shadows than just kicking and blade play.

Correct. But what has this have to do with my last post? So what? People question the validity of martial arts to in developing character, but there is more to it than just kicking, punching, and blade play. Another general statement.

he is talking about the use of the martial arts in jihad, or the struggle, to preserve yourself, and preserve the muslim community.


So? Please look back at my posts to see what my points were? So, the author talks about using martial arts to preserve oneself and one’s community. Does a Muslim Martial Artist writing about using martial arts for self-preservation automatically justify calling these martial arts “Muslim Martial Arts???”

on verity.nu/dawah/training.htm, the author recommends to study the martial arts to prepare for jihad. not "holy war" like some people think, but the responsibility of self preservation of the valuable life given to us by God.

The author recommends that one must train in martial arts to prepare for self preservation. Isn’t this obvious? Isn’t this really, really obvious? And I mean ridiculously obvious? If someone wants to train for self-preservation, this person should study martial arts.


"Martial Arts

It is vital to join a martial arts club as part of the training for Jihad. In addition to teaching you how to defend yourself and strengthen your body, martial arts develop self-discipline and controlled aggression. In some countries, there are martial arts run by Muslim instructors, but one can join other clubs if there are no Muslim clubs in his area. It is preferable to join clubs that emphasise on street-fighting and self-defence such as kung-fu styles rather than tournament fighting. You would never use high or flying kicks in a real fight but you may in tournaments. As with any activity, regular attendance for a number of months is necessary in order to benefit from martial arts. Many people join martial arts clubs but are unable to stick with them. Joining clubs that teach weapons such as sword or knife-fighting are also good atadvanced stages. "

How does this add to our discussion?

"Martial Arts

It is vital to join a martial arts club as part of the training for Jihad.

One should train in martial arts if one wants to train for self-preservation. A general statement.

In addition to teaching you how to defend yourself and strengthen your body, martial arts develop self-discipline and controlled aggression.

A general statement. This isn’t unique to Islam. Why did you use these quotes?

In some countries, there are martial arts run by Muslim instructors, but one can join other clubs if there are no Muslim clubs in his area.

A martial artist who is Muslim is recommending martial arts training.

It is preferable to join clubs that emphasise on street-fighting...rather than tournament fighting. You would never use high or flying kicks in a real fight but you may in tournaments.

Since this forum is located with other reality-based martial arts forums, such as Jeet Kune Do, Brazilian Jiu-jits, mixed martial arts, the LARGE MAJORITY of people on this forum already know this.

If you go to forums where people discuss point-sparing, and jump flying kicks for combat, then the above statements may be necessary.

But in the context of this forum, these are general statements. These statements *are not unique to Islam.*

As with any activity, regular attendance for a number of months is necessary in order to benefit from martial arts.

A very general statement.

Many people join martial arts clubs but are unable to stick with them.

Another general statement.

Joining clubs that teach weapons such as sword or knife-fighting are also good at advanced stages.

And another one. Why did you include these quotes in your posts?

for the muslim, training for self preservation is not an option.
What type of Muslim? A Muslim who is, say a soldier in Arabia? A Muslim doctor who has bought a home for his family in one of the top ten safest cities in America? A Muslim studying engineering at a college in America?

I know many Muslims who have no interest in training in Martial Arts? These Muslims HAVE the option of NOT training in Martial Arts.

Again, these Muslims HAVE THE OPTION of NOT training in Martial Arts.

I know a Muslim who has a Black Belt in a style that emphasizes, high kicking and tournament fighting.

This person had the OPTION of NOT training for self-preservation?

I remember watching the Iranian men’s team in the World Taekwondo Championships. These mean WERE NOT training for self-preservation. They were training in *high kicking* for a *tournament.*
These men HAD THE OPTION OF NOT TRAINING FOR SELF-PRESERVATION.

a man who says he is willing to fight for what he believes, but does not prepare for this kind of fight, is a hypocrit, either because he is lazy, or afraid to really struggle.

This is a general statement.

this is much different from someone who practice the art because he wants to be the next bruce lee, or to look like the people in the movies, or for appreciation of asian culture.

Yes, there is a difference. There is a difference between people who want to train for self preservation and people who want to train because they want to look like the people in the movies. This statement is *not unique to Islam.* (And I’m sure there is “Asian culture” in Indonesia as well as in Silat.)

(This may be part of the reason that people train in Asian martial arts.)

Since this forum is located with other reality-based martial arts forums, such as mixed martial arts, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Thai-boxing, boxing, Jeet kune do, etc, and since many of these styles are used as delivery systems for self-defense, doesn’t it make sense that the LARGE MAJORITY of the people who visit this forum already know the difference between self-preservation and movie-fighting?

Do you think the main reason many people train in Boxing, Thai-boxing, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Mixed Martial Arts, is to look like people in the movies and to appreciate Asian culture? Though, I’m sure that many of these people appreciate Asian culture, as well as other cultures (this is a Filipino martial arts forum after all.) People who begin training in Thai-boxing may find a greater appreciation for Thai culture, but this may not be the main reason they train in this style.

Your above statements are unnecessary and ARE NOT unique to Islam and Muslims.
Again, they are *not unique to Islam and Muslims.*

You speak of people who practice martial arts for an appreciation of Asian culture, but isn’t a forum with the banner “Muslim Martial Arts” trying to show appreciation for Muslim philosophy? And since Islam originated in the Middle-east, isn’t this “Muslim Martial Arts” forum trying to show appreciation for Middle-eastern culture?

but in southeast asia, there is a difference between silat practiced by muslims, and silat of buddhists and christians. we just dont read about them. there is also, kung fu of chinese buddhists, and kung fu of chinese muslims.

It was tiring to go through all the unnecessary statements to find these statements that are making a point.

One of your points is: There is a difference between silat practiced by muslims and the silat practiced by Buddhists and Christians.

As you said in one of your posts, the difference is one of philosophy, *not one of technique.*

Since the “art” in “Muslim Martial Arts,” or the “fighting style” in “Muslim Fighting Style” is the same as the one taught by Buddhists and Christians, you intend to call Silat a Muslim Martial Art??? So Silat is also a Buddhist and Christian martial art depending on the religious philosophy of the teacher???

Isn’t this forum really about using a Martial Art to increase religious pride for Muslims? A Muslim Martial Arts forum is about increasing religious pride for Muslims and since Islam originated in the Middle east, it is about increasing Middle-eastern cultural pride.

There is a Chinese Restaurant near my neighborhood. The Chinese owners of the restaurant are Muslim. The restaurant has symbols on the wall that appears to be from Middle-Eastern countries. I still call the food CHINESE FOOD, not MUSLIM FOOD. The food is still Chinese food.
I may tell a friend of mine “They make good Chinese food,” NOT “They make good Muslim food.”

Since the owners are Muslim, they don’t serve pork , so there is a difference from other Chinese restaurants (and I am sure that there may be other differences that I am not aware of.) But the food is called Chinese Food, a variation, but still CHINESE food.

Now, what if the owners were of Middle-Eastern descent as well as being Muslim, would that be more justification not to call the food Chinese Food, but MUSLIM Food? This would be ridiculous. Yes, ridiculous.

What if these Muslim people, who let’s suppose were ethnically Middle-Eastern, were experts at cooking Chinese Food, would this be more of a reason to call the food MUSLIM FOOD instead of CHINESE FOOD? Again, this doesn’t make sense. Wouldn’t that fact that it is CHINESE FOOD *take precedence* over the facts that people who cooked the food were Muslim, who used middle-Eastern Muslim traditions and customs, AND used Muslim philosophy to conduct their lives?

(Please, by using a “food analogy” I DO NOT mean to be derogatory or rude. There is a Chinese restaurant near my neighborhood owned by Chinese Muslims, so it came to mind to use it as an example in this discussion.)

[Cavalry]

[QUOTE] the kuntawman
there is also, kung fu of chinese buddhists, and kung fu of chinese muslims.
yes, we do not say "budhist kung fu" but most people will assume all kung fu is having buddhist roots.

You say most people will assume all kung fu has Buddhist roots.

This brings up an important idea: peoples’ assumptions.
Since
1. you live in America,
2.and most of the people you interact with live in America,
3. and most (not all) of the members on this forum live in “the West”
4. or live in countries that have “Western influence”
5. and everyone on this forum can speak English, I will assume that then you say “most people” you mean “most people” in America or in “the West,” or live in countries who are influenced
By the “the West.”

That is another important point: we are talking about a Western Point of View. When I talk about “the West” this includes people of any ethnicity who live in the United States of America, Canada, or Europe and whose attitudes, points of view, values, etc. have been influenced by the dominant attitudes, points of view, values, etc. of those regions. (“The “West” and Western influence does include other parts of the world, but I will just focus on the United States of America, Canada, and Europe.)

Most people the West will assume that most, if not all, things Muslim *have MIDDLE-EASTERN ROOTS.* One can see why one may think this, since Islam originated in the Middle-east and the LARGE MAJORITY of people and countries in the Middle East are Muslim.

In fact there are Muslims in America who must identify themselves as “black Muslims” because they know that the word “Muslim” is STRONGLY ASSOCIATED with a person of Middle-eastern descent.

I think most people in North and South America and Europe, DO NOT know that most Indonesians are Muslim.

In the Western World (perhaps in other parts of the world to but I will just focus on the Western World)

there is a *STRONG ASSOCIATION* between ISLAM and THE MIDDLE-EAST.
Again, there is a STRONG ASSOCIATION between ISLAM and THE MIDDLE-EAST.

So, when one calls Silat a “Muslim Martial Art,” most people (who live in the Western World) may mistakenly think it is a Middle-Eastern martial art and that it was developed in the Middle-East!!!
How ridiculous.
*I think that’s were the confusion may be.*

And to most people in the Western World there is no such thing. (Of course there is Turkish wrestling and other forms of wrestling.)

There is no Middle-Eastern martial art, developed in Muslim Middle-Eastern countries, that has Middle-Eastern traditions, customs that are widely practiced by people of countries outside the Middle-East.

Again, there are no Middle-eastern Martial arts (except Turkish wrestling and perhaps other forms of wrestling),
- that developed in Middle-Eastern countries which are Muslim,
- that have Middle-eastern traditions and customs,
- that are well-known in the Western world,
- and are widely practiced today by people of countries outside of the Middle-East.

(I could be wrong about this. If you know a Middle-eastern martial art that fits this criteria please let me know.)

Not many people know that Silat is most often referred to as an Indonesian or south-east Asian martial art.


Because:
- there is a *STRONG ASSOCIATION* between Islam and the Middle-East
- and many non-martial artists don’t know that Silat is most often referred to as an Indonesian or South-east Asian martial art,
- and most people do not know that Indonesia is primarily a Muslim country,

...when most people hear Silat being called a “Muslim Martial Art,” they may wrongly assume that it is a Middle-Eastern martial art, instead of an Indonesian or south-east Asian martial art. Most people in the Western World have never heard of any Middle-Eastern martial arts from Muslim countries.

There may be practitioners of Silat, who are of Middle-Eastern descent that would not mind promoting this misconception, because it would *increase Middle-Eastern cultural and Islamic religious pride,* though on a false assumption.

My intent is not to put down the Middle-east, my friend. On the contrary, the Middle-East has a rich history, and has contributed so much to the world in terms of architecture, math, science, etc.

[Cavalry]

[QUOTE] thekuntawman
this is not known, but in the times of prophet muhammad (swt), muslim men are expected to practice self defense.

So? When you say “self-defense” are you talking about fighting with swords, spears, bows and arrows????? Many people of other cultures trained with these weapons for combat. Fighting with these weapons *is not unique to Islam.* What is the point of this statement?

in saudi arabia, today, even the prince of saudi arabia is a student of the martial arts.

This adds nothing. Your point is what....? How many princes are there in Saudi Arabia? One of these princes practices martial arts. And so....? What is your point?

in every different culture of muslim people of africa, the arab world, middle asia, and in asia, there is the presence of martial arts practice. martial arts is a strong part of islamic history, except it is not the kind of martial arts practice we think about.

Again, this adds nothing. In many countries from North America, to countries in South America, to Europe and Asia there is a “presence” of martial arts practice.

I am focusing on Silat in South-east Asia, being called a “Muslim Martial Art” and I am talking about the term “Muslim Martial Arts” ..... and you bring up “different culture of Muslim people,” the “Arab world,” and “Islamic history.”

Again, you are bringing up “culture of Muslim people,” “the Arab world,” and “Islamic history.”
Let’s be honest. You bring these things up to increase a sense of Middle-eastern and Muslim “Cultural and religious pride” with Martial Artists. Isn’t that the reason?

Isn't that what a “Muslim Martial Arts forum” is about?

If that’s true, then why not talk about things like Arabian and Persian swords? That would make sense.

Or modern Arabian and Persian martial arts? Are there any? Or a Middle-Eastern style, such as “Turkish wrestling,” which is mentioned on the forum.

But why try to link the middle-Eastern world with the South-East Asian fighting style of Silat?

When you say Martial Arts is a strong part of Islamic History, what do you mean?
Are you talking about fighting with swords and spears??????

People have been fighting with swords and spears in wars in Europe, the Middle-east, and in Asia for a long time; long before such things as Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam ever existed.

If the statement “martial arts is a strong part of Islamic History” means “people have been fighting with swords and spears in wars in Islamic History” then the statement is unnecessary and meaningless

like i said, in the muslim world, the martial arts are for fighting technique and self defense only. not just because it is dangerous world that we live in, but it is the responsibility of the man to protect his family, himself and his community.

You mentioned that one of the princes of Saudi Arabia practices martial arts. Do you really think that this Prince practices for self-defense when this prince has heavily armored bodyguards. Doesn’t make more sense that this Prince lives in luxury and has *leisure time* to practice this martial art for recreation? Do you think that the Iranian’s men’s Taekwondo team practice Taekwondo for self-defense? Don’t they practice for Taekwondo tournament fighting?

but it is the responsibility of the man to protect his family, himself and his community.

This is another very general statement that is not unique to Islam.

To SUMMARIZE:

-There is a STRONG ASSOCIATION between Islam and the *Middle-east.*
-Referring to Silat as a Muslim Fighting Style may *mistakenly make people think that Silat is a
Middle-eastern Martial art.*
-There may be practitioners of Middle-eastern descent who would not mind this misconception because it would *increase Middle-eastern cultural pride and Islamic religious pride*, though on a false assumption.
-Referring to Silat as a Muslim Fighting Style seems like an attempt to “Middle-easternize” a South-east Asian Fighting Style.
-To most people in “the West,” there is no such thing as a Middle-eastern Martial Art, from a Muslim country, that is practiced widely outside the Middle-east, so the term “Muslim Martial Art” sounds strange.
-Silat is most often referred to as an Indonesian Martial Art or South-East Asian Martial Art.

Thekuntawman, I hope nothing in my post offends you; it was not mean to be offensive.

[Cavalry]

Krys [quote]
Martial arts are identified sometimes by their place of origin (this is the case of my silat), also sometimes by their founder or religion.

Let’s stay focused:
- It makes more sense to call Silat an Indonesian, or South-East Asian Martial Art.
- It does not make sense to call Silat a “Muslim Martial Art.”
- There is a STRONG ASSOCIATION between ISLAM and the MIDDLE-EAST.
- Calling Silat a “Muslim Martial Art” is an attempt to “Middle-easternize” a South-east Asian Martial Art.

[quote] Krys
Nobody really knows where Silat was developped, we only can guess, but you could really be surprised by the answer of some Grandmasters possessing
greater knowledge on the subject than we,

This sounds like an attempt to undermine a part of Indonesian culture.

If a Grandmaster said that martial arts were practiced in Indonesia for many years before Islam spread in Indonesia, this would not surprise me.

If a Grandmaster said something like this:
- the Shaolin Temple was founded around 500 AD. At this time, Indonesia was not an Islamic area.
- Between 500 AD and 1400 AD ( around 900 years) Buddhist Monks traveled and lived in Indonesia.
- Between 600s AD and 1200s AD, the powerful Buddhist kingdom of Srivijaya expanded from Sumatra and became a great sea power.
- A powerful Buddhist Kingdom existed in Indonesia for over 600 years. This kingdom existed before Islam spread in Indonesia.
- Since Buddhism spread to other parts of Asia from the Shaolin Temple, Buddhist Monks from the Shaolin Temple definitely traveled to other parts of Asia. (Though, Martial Arts did exist in China and other parts of Asia before the Shoalin Temple.)
- Since 1.Buddhism existed in Indonesia before Islam spread to Indonesia, and 2.a powerful Buddhist Kingdom existed in Indonesia for over 600 years between the 600's AD and 1200's AD, => => it is very probable that Buddhist monks from China traveled to Indonesia and brought their martial arts. This makes sense.
- There may have been martial arts that existed in Indonesia before Buddhist Monks arrived.
- Islam spread in Indonesia around the early 1400s because the ruler of the Melaka port kingdom converted to Islam.
- it makes sense that Martial Arts existed in Indonesia before Islam spread in Indonesia.
- Again: it makes sense that Martial Arts existed in Indonesia before Islam spread in Indonesia.
- The Martial Arts that existed in Indonesia developed into what we today know as Silat.
- Just as Karate, which is said to have had considerable influence from China but is now it’s own distinct style, is referred to as a Japanese Martial Art, it makes sense to refer to Silat as an Indonesian Martial art.

If a Grandmaster said something along these lines (or some combination of the above), this would not surprise me. This would make sense to me.

Where do you believe that a Grandmaster with greater knowledge would say that Silat developed from, that would surprise me?

Earlier you said “Silat was actually exported to most of the places where you can find it now.”
Where do you believe Silat was exported from that would be surprising?

[Cavalry]

[QUOTE] Krys
Go to SEA and you will see, most of my muslim friends-teachers tried to convert me to Islam. They say the deeper practices of their silat can only be understood by a muslim.
(This isn’t the main focus of my post, but I’ll respond to it anyway.)
If a person is trying to convert you to their religion, this gives their religion more *prestige* and makes it sound more attractive. If the person was Catholic, he or she would say that the deeper practices of silat could only be understood by a Catholic.

There is a link between religion and dangerous area.
(This isn’t the main focus of my post, but I’ll respond to it anyway.)
True. My point is that if a Muslim who lives in a dangerous area trains in Martial Arts for self-preservation, it is because he lives in a dangerous area, and NOT just because he is Muslim

A Muslim -> who lives in a dangerous area -> trains for self-preservation.
A Muslim -> who lives in a safe, peaceful area -> trains for recreation.

Being Muslim does not make him automatically want to train for self-preservation.

[QUOTE] Krys
Just hope I was not offensive, this is not my intention.

I understand that nothing in your post was meant to be offensive. Often, and especially when talking about religion, things may sound offensive, but weren’t meant to be. I also hope that nothing in my post is taken offensively.

Once again, good luck to you krys and kuntawman with your training.

[allswoledup]

I would like to say that.......

The muslim fighting arts page is one of the better silat webpages out there that I've come across.

I am curious and will be checking out some of the silat tapes since my area has lack of instruction in silat other than seminar type instructors.

I think it is rather obvious that silat wasn't founded by muslims since it is from southeast asia and argueing this is just BS to begin with.I was suprised to see how many folks were willing to go on-and-on about this fact.

do you really think THEKUNTAWMAN doesn't know this already ?

Just as so many people were ready to jump up and take ofense to a muslim posting his website and advertising "muslim fighting arts"
It is just as bad for kuntawman to post saying muslims have any monopoly on silat or special type practices or whatever.

First of all, to the thekuntawman, try and take up a martial artist viewpoint at least when posting on here and see things universally.(this will avoid all useless posts to some degree.)

Next,I think all kuntawman was trying to say or do is offer up his business as means for us here to look into,and advertising muslim fighting arts is just a way of identifiying with other muslim
martial artists who would maybe like martial arts from a religious point of view ?

I think if kuntawman wasn't getting bumrushed by everyone we would sound a little less ofensive to everyone.

But kuntawman your point of views are way off and have no basis in fact or fiction.

Let me just say that I'm looking for someone to instruct me in silat/style martial arts and I'll take a dedicated,hard-hitting practitioner wether he's muslim,catholic,methodist or whatever,over
all these mcdojo fools out there.


J

[krys]

This sounds like an attempt to undermine a part of Indonesian culture.

FIrst of all Silat is not an all Indonesian art, it can be found in all SEA...


My Grandmaster is a referee of international silat contests. He has a good knowledge of different Silat styles and of the martial arts practice of Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, southern Philippines....

He told that the martial arts practiced in the Majapahit empire were more like "Kung Fu", therefore as you said it is possible that Budhist monks or more probably traders introduced some martial arts to Indonesia..... but nobody knows for sure that the Silat we see today comes from these Majapahit arts....

There are many (less known but very efficient) martial arts in some remote parts of Malysia and the southern Philippines and probably Indonesia....
These arts, mostly practiced by some pagan tribes, are not silat.....

99% of the silat practiced in SEA is associated with Islam..... One possibility is that some muslims warriors developped Silat and included muslim practices in their martial art....
Even under the hypothesys that they developped it from Budhist arts, they would have rejected the Budhist spiritual practices, and replaced it with muslim practices.... The silat we see today involves muslim practices.

Actually there are two kinds of silat, one which everyone knows is the martial art or penjak silat.... the other is silat rahmi which means the way of the religion.
Silat rahmi teaches you how to use the inner power, like chi....

I was recently introduced to these inner practices, this is not usually shown to outdoor students and therefore not really known in the west , there are some exercises i can do. Other involve going to the mosque after meditating, or involve muslim readings which I can't clearly do given my religious beliefs.....


All the best, forgive my poor english,
Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis,
Christian.

[Ustaz Hussein]

What is a "Muslim Fighting Art"

Salam everyone,

I am Ustaz Hussein Udom, the admin for the website RCAG Online - Hardcore Silat Arts. And as everyone knows we are the primary internet resource for Muslim Fighting Arts and Warrior Culture. I have had the pleasure to peruse your postings regarding the Muslim Fighting Arts and Silat in general and now I will offer an explanation of the site contents. Firstly, stating that Silat or Pencak Silat or any other reffering name for Silat is a Muslim Fighting Art is totally wrong.

Silat as a whole is not a MFA, but most Silat systems practiced in our contemporary times are. Anyone who has had the opportunity of practicing and travelling through Asia which I have, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, China, Taiwan and so on, will tell you that most Silat systems are connected with Islam in their philosophy and sometimes even in the physical movements, for example a langkah (lower body movement) based on the shape of an Arabic letter from the Qur'an, or a knife with an inscription of "there is only one God, La Illahi Illa la".

These things establish the connection between Islam and the particular system of Silat, it does not make Silat in total a MFA but it makes that system of Silat a MFA. In the western world it is not normal to associate any religion to a Martial Art, but in the eastern world identifying religion with an art is a common practice. As Martial artists we should try to be open minded and attempt at least in the most minute way to accept and respect other cultures and mentalities views on things as we respect and accept our own.

That being said, a MFA is any system of combat which teaches the warrior the philosophy and combat culture of the Muslim people from contemporary times and history. And any system which espouses the morals, ethics and Futawa (warrior chivalry) of Islam, in life and warfare, for each warrior to follow. The reason for the term "Muslim Fighting Art" is not to denigrate the non-muslim people who originated the movements of any particular system. It clearly identifies that the art being practiced follows the Futawa, which is a total training system in Muslim warrior culture, history, ethics, morality, mental training for combat and a variety of other things. A Martial Art that does not teach these things, even if the instructor is Muslim, is not a MFA. A Muslim Karate instructor is not teaching MFA's no matter what he says. Just saying a verse from Qur'an before starting class does not make your system a MFA.

A MFA is a total immersion into the Warrior Culture of the Islamic people from Malaysia all the way to Saudi Arabia and beyond, as training in Pekiti tirsia is a total immersion in the warrior culture of the Phillippines from the past to the present. The MFA's are not exclusive to Muslim people either. Most of my students for Silat Mubai are not Muslim, they are Christian and Buddhist, they learn the culture of the system and respect it, that is all that is required of them. I teach them about the great warrior Ali Ibn Abu Talib, founder of our Futawa (chivalry) as a historical figure they can measure themselves to. The non-muslim people who wish to learn more about the spiritual/religious aspects of the system ask me questions after class, many do, and the muslim students continue to learn the spiritual aspects because they are already part of them.

The only compulsory thing is Futawa (chivalry) which is from Al-Qawaneen Al-Islam Fi Al-Qital, Islamic warrior code during combat. This is like any warrior code of ethics and serves to teach proper conduct. Another thing is muslim warrior history and culture, as in any martial practice it is important to understand the background of it in order to get a deeper meaning of what you are doing. An example would be, a kungfu teacher lighting incense before class, at surface it seems that he just wants the room to smell good but when you learn the history you find out it is part of Buddhist practice. Religion is not compulsory as it clearly states in Qur'an "there is no compulsion in religion", so any instructor of a MFA who attempts to convert you is himself walking the wrong path. The MFA's have so much to offer in the way of combative training and Warrior culture. The spiritual side which takes the Sufi path (www.qrtsufi.org) in SEA especially is another great and unique aspect of the arts for those looking for spiritual direction, which is so needed in our contemporary times. Just take the time and bring an open mind. You will find in the MFA's combative reality and a feast of knowledge for the spirit, heart and mind.

Yours in arms,

Ustaz Hussein Udom Bin Hamid Al-Kalabari

Administration

https://www.mubai.cc

[Maxetai]

If I'm interested in a religion, I will go to the temples where it is worshiped for further info.

If I'm interested in Martial Arts/Fighting Arts, I will go to the schools/gyms or certain individuals where it is practiced for further info.

I'm in this forum to discuss Martial Arts. If you are interested in religion, go and look elsewhere.

If you want to call what you are doing 'Muslim Martial Art' stop and think what you are expressing. It only makes Muslims and Islam look foolish. Case in point: Do I need to get circumcised to practice 'Muslim Martial Arts'? Must I study the Koran? Must I pray 5,6,7,8,9,10, nth times a day?

In other words, must I be a Muslim to practice 'Muslim Martial Arts' ?
If yes, then no thanks. I'm not into discrimination.
If no, then I am not practicing 'Muslim Martial Arts'!
Get it?

There can never be a religious 'Martial Arts'.

All the above are of course my humble opinion. If you agree or disagree is your choice to make. Good luck.

[krys]

There can never be a religious 'Martial Arts'.

You don't need to be a muslim to learn silat but you have to believe in God.
I traveled through Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and finally the Philippines...... Every silat (or Arnis) master I met was very religious. My own filipino GM wouldn't have taught me hadn't I be religious, we spend a lot of time speaking religion and this is part of a pesilats education.... silat is a way of life, not just fighting techniques.

[Maxetai]

Originally posted by krys


You don't need to be a muslim to learn silat but you have to believe in God.
I traveled through Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and finally the Philippines...... Every silat (or Arnis) master I met was very religious. My own filipino GM wouldn't have taught me hadn't I be religious, we spend a lot of time speaking religion and this is part of a pesilats education.... silat is a way of life, not just fighting techniques.

Krys,
By religious, I mean a martial art that is the product of a recognized religion and I am not saying that belief in God or Allah or Creator or Cosmic Consciousness or Tao or whatever you wish to label is criteria for studying a specific Martial Art.
There is a lot of spiritual aspects to Martial Arts and I respect that. But to take a major religion and attach it to a style(s) of Martial Arts is to say something at least bordering on the childish and even ridiculous.
Anyway your example has to do with your teachers and not of a specific religion.
I will also dare to say that many people on this Earth are very spiritual and conscious of God and are not at all religious. Being religious does not mean that someone is spiritual or is seeking a spiritual path for development. It could also mean that but not necessarily.
Enough said. God (or whatever your word may be) bless you all.