Knife

[jesse7]

First thing I was tought to do was run . If thats not possible, everything we are taught relates to real life street situations, all of our stances and moves are carried out so that viens etc are as least as exsposed as possible, we are taught that if we are forced to disarm, we may get cut but at least you may pull of the disarm and not be cut too badly.

The only move I would consider trying a disarm with, is my feet as long as I had tough shoes on.

In class we use big arse sticks of calk .. (red and blue) and we "spar" with someone for a few minutes attempting all the diferent disarms we have been taught .... mostly to show how usless most of them are and which are effective etc. Usually out of a 3ish min spar you have several marks all over (sometimes from your own knife .. err chalk) its great fun .. and our instructor even comes out with many cuts etc if he attempts all the diferent disarms we have been shown. This is showing us how usless it is to try and disarm. I found the most effective was to kick .. it was about a 1/5 chance I got cut maybe higher.

Jess

[chalambok]

I had a jailhouse martial artist show me something really cool one time, although I am not sure of its viability. He took a knife and shoved the handle under the laces of his shoe so the blade stuck out forward of his foot, so he could kick lowline and attack the calves of his opponents. I have played with it a lot, and it is always a surprise to my opponents, plus it extends the reach of your blade by about 18 inches. It really changed my appreciation for sneakiness, similar to t he first time I was shown the 'Moroccan Shift'

[jesse7]

.... Thats pretty evil! You shouldnt be giving the crazy guys on this board those kinda ideas! I hope I never have to face something like this.

Whats the morocan shift?

Jess

[Morné]

Knife fighting for the street

For me the knife is the most frightning range/weapon in the Martial Arts due
to it's amazing dynamics and Fatal abilities. Even for someone who is
much smaller & weaker it can be a equilizer if the odds are against you,
also in Knife fighting there is no second chance as the chances are good for
a fatal slash or thrust to be executed within first contact. Saying all
this i would like to address a few concepts in realistic knife fighting.
You need to distinguish if you are studying knife fighting for the
art/beauty or for a street encounter. If it is for street encounter/self
defence you need to train in a certain manner. It doesnt help you waste
allot of training time studying useless dead patterns, forms, drills etc. I
must stress the word dead as there are very dynamic methods in how you can
make all these dead patterns 'alive' which will give you that realistic
approach to your training. We need to realise that we all have limited time
studying the Martial Arts or knife fighting if you like and that the Martial
Arts or knife fighting offers unlimited amount of techniques. So what we
need to do is prioritise our training and concentrate on those techniques
and training methods that will enhance our abilities as quick and dynamic
as possible.
Referring especially to the Knife & Stick fighting arts, there seems to be
too many techniques compared to realistic training methods & strategies. If
you look at a realistic weapons group such a the Dog Brothers you will see
there is limited techniques compared to the dynamic training methods and
strategy.Too many instructors and schools get into the habit of using the
amount of disarms or techniques they know to establish their level of
experience. If Knife Fighter A knows 25 disarms and Knife Fighter B only
knows 5 doesnt mean that A is better in disarming or knife fighter than B!
Another problem is that allot of knife fighting schools concentrate allot on
just Knife vs Knife. Allot of empty hand against the knife should also be
addressed as this is most likely the situation you will be dealing with,
even if you carry a knife with you most of the time. Drills are good as long
as they are 'alive', as too many people train in dead patterns and think
this
will make them better fighters. If you want to learn how to fight train
against someone who is fighting back.
The way you are training or preparing yourself for the street/self defense
is going to be the way you will be responding. Make sure you can apply what
you know in a alive full resistance scenario.....train to expect the
unexpected.
Another concern is that allot of the techniques that are taught are aimed
just for standard size knifes. There are various natural weapons out
there that can be used for slashing & thrusting, not even to mention the
different kind of knifes you get, allot of these amazing disarms will never
work against your $2.99 market fold up knifes that fits in your palm
which you can harldy see, as they are just too small, not even to mention a
broken bottle or piece of glass used as a weapon. So the idea is to make
sure that your knife training techniques can be used against any kind of
weapon, the dynamics of the technique should be adaptable.
SO at JKD Unlimited - High Perfromance Martial Arts we offer the students a whole
range of realistic Knife & Stick Fighting techniques that we know works
under full resistance. More important than the techniques is correct
training methods adding the resistance & Aliveness with fighting stratetgy
& pshycology.

Enjoy
Morné

[jesse7]

What do you mean by "works under full resistance". In my experience there are techniques which are extremely good, but they are far from reliable, my instructor stresses this and makes sure we dont trick ourselves into thinking we can safely disarm knives.

Get some chalk and go "physco" on one of the most skilled people at your school. He may disarm you oftern but eventually you will get him, I dont think that risk is worth taking unless you are forced (eg backed into a wall etc). My fav knife disarm is backing away and kicking the knife (only semi safe with shoes) this cant be done if you dont have alot of room.

Jess

[Morné]

Full Resistance

Hi Jess,

Full Resistance meaning that your opponent is actually fighting back and that you test your technqiues in a 'alive' environment.

Enjoy!!

Morné

[William]

Morne wrote:

Knife fighting there is no second chance as the chances are good for
a fatal slash or thrust to be executed within first contact.

This was one of the main points of my original post. When working with an
uncooperative training partner, consider any hit fatal and try again.
Whether your going OH to knife or knife to knife (and work both).

Saying all
this i would like to address a few concepts in realistic knife fighting.
You need to distinguish if you are studying knife fighting for the
art/beauty or for a street encounter.


I didn't realize there was a difference. I have always considered the knife
to be a down and dirty weapon that requires the utmost respect and wariness.
I never thought of it "for the art and beauty" of it. But I get your point.
Being able to flow with the knife through a multitude of patterns and drills
doesn't necessarily make you a good knife fighter.


If it is for street encounter/self
defence you need to train in a certain manner. It doesnt help you waste
allot of training time studying useless dead patterns, forms, drills etc. I
must stress the word dead as there are very dynamic methods in how you can
make all these dead patterns 'alive' which will give you that realistic
approach to your training.

Another good point that was touched on in previous posts.

We need to realise that we all have limited time
studying the Martial Arts or knife fighting if you like and that the Martial
Arts or knife fighting offers unlimited amount of techniques. So what we
need to do is prioritise our training and concentrate on those techniques
and training methods that will enhance our abilities as quick and dynamic
as possible.


Exactly!

Referring especially to the Knife & Stick fighting arts, there seems to be
too many techniques compared to realistic training methods & strategies. If
you look at a realistic weapons group such a the Dog Brothers you will see
there is limited techniques compared to the dynamic training methods and
strategy.


I believe it was Guro Inosanto who said something like; "I would rather know
one technique and a hundred ways to get to it, then a hundred techniques a
few ways to get to them" (or something close, but you get my point). Too
many folks concentrate on technique accumulation instead of underlying
principles and strategies. Most seminars that are put on are structured this
way. Work a technique for 10 - 15 minutes, and then throw out another
one...for 6 - 8 hours. Most people walk away remembering little or nothing.
Not enough seminars are taught with an underlying principle or strategy that
links the presented material.

Too many instructors and schools get into the habit of using the
amount of disarms or techniques they know to establish their level of
experience.


Run away. Far far away.

Another concern is that allot of the techniques that are taught are aimed
just for standard size knifes. There are various natural weapons out
there that can be used for slashing & thrusting,


Ah yes, the basic tenants of the FMA. Being adaptable and having the ability
to apply what you know to a multitude of bladed and impact weapons
interchangeably. You should be applying what you know to things like pens,
screw drivers, umbrellas, kitchen utensils, various hand tools, weed
whacker...ok, I digress (but you get my point). You should be able to
transfer your methods and skills from bladed, impact and other edged weapons
to empty hands combat and directly back to weapons.

allot of these amazing disarms will never
work against your $2.99 market fold up


Or work period. Which again points back to my original post.

Thank you, good points

William

[chalambok]

Ah, this is some great stuff, real discussions from real people. Just a couple of things I would like to address/state.
THE MOROCCAN SHIFT This is absurdly simple, hence it works almost every time you first use it, even against supposedly trained people. You stand with your weapon arm back, then rapidly shift the knife to your front hand and thrust. Just give it a try and you might be surprised.

Secondly, someone referred to the realistic training of the Dog Brothers. If you notice, in their early years they mostly stood toe to toe and slugged it out, so to speak. Then they started finding out the larger opponent had a tremendous advantage during a charge. And then, starting in '95, graduates from the Buddhai Sawan started playing and the dynamics of their game totally changed, with the introduction (finally) of footwork and the delivery of bodyweight power. Please don't get me wrong, the Dog Brothers are very definitely a proving ground, cutting edge (forgive the pun) group of dedicated martial artists, to me showing the very strength of the American martial arts scene. Also please note that when they gather there is one weapon they do not allow, the mai sok (arm protectors) which is the preferred weapon of the true Krabi-Krabong expert, viewed by most Thai as the ultimate weapon. Why do you suppose that is? I don't know, I have my suspicions, but maybe one of them will see this post and reply.
chok di makh

[William]

Chalambok wrote:

Also please note that when they gather there is one weapon they do not allow, the mai sok (arm protectors) which is the preferred weapon of the true Krabi-Krabong expert, viewed by most Thai as the ultimate weapon.

I have had the privilege of experiencing Chalambok in action with the Mai Soks. He had me attack him with two Krabi-Krabong swords which he was able to deflect and counter-attack with ease. They are truly formidable weapons. Just think about fighting MT with these on, they translate directly.

Now that I have access to a shop, I am going to make myself a pair. Thanks for reminding me.


William

[William]

WARNING!!! THIS SECTION IS ABOUT A TECHNIQUE THAT WILL NOT WORKAND COULD GET YOU KILLED!!! DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS TECHNIQUE!!!

Ok, since I was on the subject of unrealistic knife disarms, I'll throw one
out for you.
One of the first UR disarms that I can remember learning was from a
"traditional" Kung Fu school. It went something like this:

Opponent: Thrusts low line toward your stomach (saber grip) and freezes.

You: Side step to the right and pivot on the ball of your right foot and
turn toward the weapon (which just missed you)simultaneously raising your
left knee and grabbing the weapon hand with your right. Roll it as you pull (chin na style)
it towards you so that when you pin their arm
against your knee, the back of your opponents weapon hand is facing you. Now
just
knuckle punch the back of his/her hand with you left hand and...Wallah! The
knife drops to the floor.

I realized right away that this was BS but there were guys in the class who
ate this stuff up and really thought it would work. The techniques were taught with your attacker freezing for you, and we were told that THIS WILL WORK. They never work against an opponent who would flow and resist and was really trying to take them out.

Any one else care to share/un-cover a bogus tecnique?

WARNING!!! THIS SECTION IS ABOUT A TECHNIQUE THAT WILL NOT WORK AND COULD GET YOU KILLED!!! DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS TECHNIQUE!!!

William

[Budoguy]

I disagree with brokenmace. Grab the knife hand? Not on my watch. That leaves him with a free hand and two legs to hammer at you with, all your attention and effort is on controlling the one limb.

Tap and trap is the only way going hand on knife. And keep those forearms turned inward and protect the vital organs with parries.

Without an equalizer, very bad scene.

[Budoguy]

Bogus techniques, I like that idea. Okay, here goes;

a. use an x block to grab the knife

b. kick it out of his hand - it might even fly up an stick on the roof!

c. grab his hand and redirect it into his own body while he stands there fighting you like a Chuck Norris film

d. grab the knife blade with one hand and hit him with the other, like I saw once on Hawaii 5-0

e. grab his hand and throw on an arm lock until he sez uncle

f. just keep out of range letting him swing at you until there is an opening, then go in and hit him in the jawbone like Indiana Jones

g. walk around with a handgun all the time just in case.

These oughta' not work.

[ryanhall]

budo,
i agree that almost ALL knife defense is total garbage that will get you killed every time. however, to suggest that there is no way to deal with a knife other than "tap and trap" is myopic and a little ignorant.

that said, i believe you are on the right track with the vitals protection (forearms in, stomach back). that's what i practice, and it's the only thing i would trust to keep me "safe" in a blade encounter. i would rather not have to try and rely on godlike timing and speed to escape with my life.

I disagree with brokenmace. Grab the knife hand? Not on my watch. That leaves him with a free hand and two legs to hammer at you with, all your attention and effort is on controlling the one limb.

personally, i would elect to grab the knife hand if i could (with both hands of course). i will gladly take a beating from said elbows and knees to avoid a nasty poking sensation in my liver. this is NOT a rule, but: when someone has a weapon, they often fixate on it rather than using everything they can to damage you. back to grabbing the knife: as soon as i grab it, i wll do everything in my power to end his existence. headbutt the nose, bite the neck, etc. the only absolute i can think of is "attack the attacker." when someone holds all the cards and you still press at them like a madman, it definitely affects them on a psychological level.

ryan

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

A great thread continues! Although many tactics are taught(especially disarming) not all would be pulled off, in a given situation. This is not to say that they might not be pulled off, just that the perfect scenario as taught in a training hall, may never occur. But, if you are intent on learning disarming techniques, I suggest you dress in street clothes and practice with realistic attacks in a variety of "real world" environmental conditions. These would include in between cars(simulating an attack in a parking lot), stairways, phone booths, from a seated position, seated position with people on both sides of you, while your hands are slippery(simulating blood or being wet), from the prone or on your back positions etc, etc. Film all of your scenarios and review them later to see what did and did not work.

Now the above section was really one sided, your opponent was armed and for whatever reason you were not. Now add both people are armed and go through the same scenarios. Keep in mind that the attacker has usually already deployed his weapon and you must now react to his attack and then deploy your own.

Let's make the scenarios even more interesting: add two on one, three on one, two on two etc drills to the mix and see if you are intent on disarming any one person in the scenario.

A final note: add live blade training to your mix. Start slowly and see if your tactic will get you cut. [This type of practice is not recommended for anyone without supervision, first aid supplies and a nearby hospital or 911 on the speed dial] This type of practice can be done while wearing various protective gear to minamize any accidental injuries.

Train Hard, it is the Way!
Guro Steve L.

[jesse7]

Or you could just use Big sticks of chalk ... that way you dotn need to go slow and you can attack with as much agression as you like.