reality of the knife

[moromoro]

reality of the knife
this forum seems to be on the money about reality knife defense.
from my post in other forums concerning empty hands knife defense most of the members either from knife fighting arts or stick drill based arts with a large empty hands component seem to believe that disarming a knife weilding attacker is very very posible with out addressing the realities of a real knife fight they belive with a little bit of training it is possible to easilly disarm the attacker.
I have been involved in situations where the attacker had a knife twice, luckily i had other weapons on me and i survived both occasions unscathed.
Because iam trained and from the P.I i hold the view that the knife is a non primary weapon (i.e for disputes and confrontations if we cannot get firearms we will uses sundangs, pinuti, itak etc before a knife), we also hold the view that against a skilled attacker with a knife and when you are empty handed your CHANCES ARE VERY SLIM TO NONE...they didnt like it when i said this......

WHY DO PEOPLE PARTICULARLY IN THE US AND OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY'S WHERE THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE VERY COMMERCIALLISED STILL MAINTAIN A NON REALISTIC VIEW OF COMBAT.........AND BLIND THEMSELVES TO THE BLATANT REALITY OF STREET COMBAT.............................................

p.s

i like some of the responses to the several knife threads......


THANKS

TERRY

[William]

from my post in other forums concerning empty hands knife defense most of the members either from knife fighting arts or stick drill based arts with a large empty hands component seem to believe that disarming a knife weilding attacker is very very posible with out addressing the realities of a real knife fight they belive with a little bit of training it is possible to easilly disarm the attacker.

That's because they can work all kinds of fancy diarms with dull training blades usually fed without real intent. And no exsposure to what a blade is really capable of. There are way too many people out there that teach knife that have no business doing it. That's why I started the "knife" thread in hopes that there would be a little part of the forum that delt with the subject realistically. I'm happy with many of the contributions and hope it will stay alive.

WHY DO PEOPLE PARTICULARLY IN THE US AND OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY'S WHERE THE MARTIAL ARTS ARE VERY COMMERCIALLISED STILL MAINTAIN A NON REALISTIC VIEW OF COMBAT.........AND BLIND THEMSELVES TO THE BLATANT REALITY OF STREET COMBAT.....

Mainly television and movies. When was the last time you saw any sort of realistic open hand, bladed scences dealt with from a realistic stand point (usage or wounds produced). Even if you can name a few, it's only a few out of thousands. How many kids in non-western countries grow up on a large daily dose of TV and movies? Then when they want to go into martial arts, they flock to the large commercial TKD and Karate type schools who are 99.9% sport oriented. Many of them try to pass thier stuff off as self defense (what Sensei etc... says is taken as gospel). Plus they are no longer blade oriented cultures. The only time most people even use a sharp blade is when they are cutting vegetables or a steak on their plate. They don't even give it a second thought.

The bulk of the folks who teach realistically are usually backyard, private, or very small school training. Most people are put off by the real deal, "it's just too extreme" they say.

William

[thekuntawman]

people get too much seminar and video. there is not much to fighting and learning how to fight, except for the strategies. but this fast food culture, they like to be entertained, and see things that make them say "wow!" so to them, a class with many repetitions of cuts, slashings and sparring, and lecture, will be to boring. the FMA martial artist of today does not want to go to class every week and develop his technique. he wants to go once in a while to a 2 hour "seminar", learn a lot of new neat things, and practice them enough so they can show them to people and make them go WOW!

pare, if you want to be successful in teaching the native arts, take my advice (i been teaching since 92) dont recruit people who already did philippine martial arts. its best to get somebody with no experience, or people with karate or kung fu backgound. one good thing is karate and tae kwon do people like to fight. most so called, FMA people do not like to spar, this is why they make excuses like they only do streetfighting, not sport and busyit like that.

make sure you tell your students, when somebody shows them something new, try to get a match with them so see what he is really made of. it is a good technique to keeping your students, but only if they beat them. but i am sure you will teach them the right way, and they will.

[moromoro]

hey william

have you ever visited martialtalk.com
forum they dont like this type of attitude towards the knife, i recieved several warnings for stating the realities of a knife fight some even go on to state that their instructors have a lot of faith facing a knife empty handed......and that they treat the same way whether you have a knife, stick or are empty handed...

thanks
terry

[sikal]

Hi moro,
I think you misunderstood a lot of what was said on martialtalk (I'm "pesilat" there )

No one ever said "empty hand vs. knife" is easy. There has been a little bit of the attitude you've mentioned but, not nearly at the level you seem to have perceived.

I think a lot of people were saying the same things but everyone was so busy trying to make their own points they didn't take time to see that they were actually agreeing with most of the other posters

The general consensus in that discussion (before it got totally out of hand) was that facing a knife when empty handed is a seriously bad situation and best to be avoided. That training empty hand vs. knife is to give us something that might, hopefully, get us through a worst case scenario and enable us to get away or, at least, get a weapon of our own.

And, in all fairness, the warnings issued to you had nothing to do with what people were saying but, rather, how it was being said. And, trust me, you weren't the only one to receive warnings

Mike

[Kingston]

i think it was because you stated "no empty hands techniques accualy work against a knife in real life" (on martial talk)

thats not true, not saying that the rest of the stuff you said was not valid.

I think everyone was agreeing on the same thing, just at different extremes.

[moromoro]

no empty hands technique will work against a knife weilding attacker if he is highly skilled even if your empty hands are like bruce lee you will still get cut or worse......knives are razor sharp remeber this and shoul be treated with the same respect as facing a firearm if your empty handed






thanks

terry

[Reactor]

I think everyone agrees that fighting with a knife is an inherently risky undertaking, and that the first choice, if available, is to get as far away as possible from a situation that will put you in danger of the knife.

However, assuming that this choice is not available, it behooves one to know how to move against the knife, and to my mind combatives along the lines taught by Jim Grover work best. By this I mean there must be a combination of mindset, aggression, will to live, and of course some skill. Of course, to pull off the moves, the ability to react under stress must be developed and honed. But once again, my observation is that not all training methods work. Karate schools, for example, are notoriously irresponsible in this area.

Scenario-based training that trigger adrenal responses coupled with developmental drills performed under progressively increasing stress in my experience offer the best results.

One of the things we sometimes do in our gym might interest some of you. It goes like this. Our instructor calls in two or three guys from one of his other clubs and gives them strict instructions not to mingle with us. We do not know these guys other than they are there to train for the first time with us, but before they join they want to test us. Thus, when knife-scenario time comes, the aggression, some foolish price, and the fact that most of us don't know these guys trigger a primal response from us. It's an interesting experience which prevents the rot that comes from too much "inbreeding" and cooperative training.

Just some thoughts that I wanted to share.

[yenhoi]

Reactor: interesting anti-inbreeding training method.

no empty hands technique will work against a knife weilding attacker if he is highly skilled even if your empty hands are like bruce lee you will still get cut or worse......knives are razor sharp remeber this and shoul be treated with the same respect as facing a firearm if your empty handed

So how do you engage a knife weilding attacker?

More importantly, what training methods etc do you find appropriate?

[ryanhall]

So how do you engage a knife weilding attacker?

1) Do not retreat.
2) Attack him first. This keeps you on the offensive, and it is a psychological stopper for him, as he holds all the cards, yet you attack him.
3) Control the weapon NOW. Even if you manage to pass the blade and do something bad to the other guy, a lucky (for him) wave of the hand could kill you. Picture this: you knock out your opponent in a boxing match, and his hand brushes past your neck as he falls. The same thing happens with a knife in that hand, and your carotid artery could be severed.
4) Footwork is your best defense. Move if there's room.
5) Find a weapon. Preferably one with a reach advantage.
6) Run. Quickly.
7) Don't think you will be capable of surviving by doing anything short of killing or severely wounding the knife holder. Wrist lock nonsense won't work, and restraining him isn't an option. He's trying to end your life, so lethal force is more than justified.

Just a couple rules of thumb.

Unfortunately, you probably won't know there's a blade involved in the fight until someone has been stabbed, so the ability to detect the weapon (visual cues can tip you off) ahead of time is invaluable.

knives are razor sharp remeber this and shoul be treated with the same respect as facing a firearm if your empty handed

I'd much rather face a firearm empty handed. At least you're safe once you clear the barrel.

[Reactor]

Ryanhall's strategies against the knife when unarmed are all sound. Aggression is key. A knifewielder against someone unarmed will justifiably feel he is in a position of strength and will fight accordingly. A purely defensive strategy therefore would simply delay the inevitable.

Therefore, when running away is not an option, pre-emptive action would be best. However, if the knifewielder gets to attack first and doesn't get to stick one in at once, or perhaps even if he does, one will simply have to try to survive the initial attack and counter as quickly and ruthlessly as possible with a combative-type attack (eye jabs, neck cranks, etc.) then control the weapon. Easier said than done. Then again, the alternative is to roll up and be a pincushion.

Moreover, in scenario training against the knife, it is important to try to trigger the adrenal spike (call it fear, if you want) that comes when you are confronted with a knife. To do less would be to diminish the truth that the scenario seeks to reveal -- whether the response to the attack is adequate.

Having armed (with trainers, of course), uncooperative opponents motivated by the instructor to attack you in an unchoreographed manner by telling them "the defenders are wondering whether any of you are gay" is one way of getting a scenario that is vigorous enough to do this.

Btw, in my original post, I meant to write "foolish pride" not "foolish price."

[moromoro]

So how do you engage a knife weilding attacker?

whith extream difficulty if he is skilled..... it is like trying to defend against a bullet if he is an extreamly gifted knifer

[Reactor]

whith extream difficulty if he is skilled..... it is like trying to defend against a bullet if he is an extreamly gifted knifer

yup, since the knife is a force multiplier, in the hands of a person skilled in its use, the chances of surviving become close to nil and luck becomes the predominant factor.

But better to go down fighting than to just curl up, cry and die.

[yenhoi]

whith extream difficulty if he is skilled..... it is like trying to defend against a bullet if he is an extreamly gifted knifer

I agree - but in your training you must adress this issue somehow? I am sure you dont just chalk it up to "very difficult' and go about training other areas/skills/attributes etc?

You must train in some sort of weapons use/defense? What training methods are useful to develope the skills/attributes necessary to give you a couple extra points when it comes to being on the pointy side of a blade?

I carry a knife on me, who else does?

[Hakoko]

I carry a few, at any one given time