Why I don't do Kali

[William]

Why you don't train Kali

I understand where you are coming from. I have seen many people drop out
when they start working knife and make the connection to what they are
really training for. Some people can't handle it. And that's ok. The thing
is, real Kali/Eskrima/Arnis are combat oriented systems. It's not meant for
point fighting
(though many people have turned some systems into that) or just a stick
based art.
It's based on the use of the blade and it's not for everyone. Though it's
not just blades, there is an impact weapons and open hand component as well.
You don't have to go straight to the blade to deal with an attacker. As
someone stated earlier, Martial Arts were developed to maim/Kill. Many have
been watered down at this point. Even Muay Thai (as effective as it is) is a
watered down version of Muay Kacheuk (Old Style). The FMA's have remained
relatively combat oriented and have been, and are still being utilized in
recent and current military combat situations. I'm happy to be involved in
it before too much of it becomes watered down (as has already happened in
many instances).

Do I have a problem learning to do those things? No, not at all. Experiences
in my life have shown me that the sh*t can hit the fan anytime. Percentages
go up or down depending on many factors. Lifestyle choices etc... But you
can't say that just because you don't hang out at biker joints it won't
happen to you. My wife ran into two guys waiting for a train on a light rail
platform in Beaverton/Hillsboro. Two twenty something guys with pony-tails
and trench coats practicing drawing and thrusting with their blades. My wife
who is no stranger to edged weapons said that each one had a number of rigs,
and one had a forearm set up that dropped the blade into fixed position with
a flick of an arm (similar the set up the villain had in the movie Marathon
Man). This was all in the middle of Nike
Headquarters/Intel-Tektronix-Beaverton-Hillsboro-low-crime-Silicon Forest.
They were making comments and trying to stir up sh*t and scare people, but
luckily nothing more. If I had been there would I have pulled out my blades?
Damn straight I would! Would I have let them know it? No. And as long as
they didn't make a move toward me, my family, or anyone else on that
platform, I would have let them be (but watching their every move).

Like you, I like to get in the ring and mix it up, but I also want to be
proficient and better my odds with impact & edged weapons. There is no such
thing as a fair fight (out side of sport). I prefer to be able to go the
distance in the real deal, be it open hands or weapons. It may sound corny,
but...

I'd rather know it and not need it,
then need it and not know it.

To each his own,

William

[SoonerBJJ]

Good post William.

[doubleouch]

William, great post. My point is that some people including myself didn't fully understand the implications of what they are studying. I think some teachers are irresponsible and need to make that clear. Part of the problem is that you could study kali all your life without using it and never understand the ramifications of the art.

Yenhoi,
I never said bashing their brains in! With my sparring partner we can go as hard or light as we want. With the knife there is no such thing as stabbing someone lightly! And yes, the tight hook doesn't kill most of my sparring partners. The application of boxing is ring sport. The application of BJJ is competition. With these arts I can actually practice the application in the environment that it was designed for at 100% real time. With kali the application is self defence. The only way to train that at 100% real time is to get into a life or death knife fight! Yes, you can train it realistically, Yes, you can train it in an alive manner, but the truth of it is that you are training for year for something you hope will never occur!
With the sport oriented arts I train for an actual event that is more positive in nature and actually occurs on a regular basis. Do you see the fundamental difference? I actually hope to use my art in competition or the ring etc. For you to use the art you need to be attacked.
This is not a dis of kali. If it works for you then great! I'm just explaining my personal thoughts on the matter.

[yenhoi]

I understand.

Training for sport and training for defense are different realms regardless of the art.

I get you, no problems. My point was that even in boxing and BJJ the reality of your training is to hurt the other person, even to some extent when we are limiting ourselves strictly to the realm of sport.

[ryanhall]

Great post, William.

Doubleouch,
It all comes down to what you're into it for. If your lifestyle would tend to put you in dangerous situations a fair amount, then something like Kali would be a fine choice (it's a fine choice anyways). If you live in the suburbs full of upper-middle class families, then the likelihood of having to defend yourself is not very high. BJJ or boxing would be good choices because of the competition aspects. I personally enjoy a combination of both. While I train for self-defense, I think you need to pressure test everything. I like boxing because of the hand speed and the fact that it makes me better at the RBSD stuff.

Still, there's no point in sugar coating the real deal. One well-known instructor makes a bit of a hobby out of belittling combatives and self-defense, saying that they are not 'positive' in the same way that a sport is. The fact is, that combat sports take a completely different path with different results. There are certainly overlaps (conditioning, etc.) between self-defense and sport, but the mindset (what makes someone dangerous in the first place) as well as the goals and tactics involved are diametrically opposed. You can enter the ring with RBSD and be successful the same way that you can defend yourself with boxing, but you won't be in your element (as you noted). Fact is, the 'dirty' stuff isn't for everybody. It comes down to what you want out of your training. I'm with William on the "I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it."

[haumana2000]

I think it is the insturctors responsibility to be very blunt about the reality in the beginning. Taking the stance of a firearms instructor so to speak. There are vast numbers of people taking firearms classes these days (including old ladies), as it is usually the law abiding ones who will actually take the class, not the gang bangers who cant shoot worth shit. But from the first moment, the instructor lets you know that you need to respect the weapon and your ability to take a life if need be. From the point of home invasion, what is the most common weapon that people investigating a "strange noise" grab? many untrained people end up on the receiving end of their own weapon because they did not know how to use it. Same with guns. Try horseplay in a firearms class, you'll be out on yo ass quick! The instructor should let you know from the get go, exactly the impact of your weapon, and the possible consequences for misusing the information presented. Many of the martial arts like I am perceiving you initially intended to study when you took up FMA, betray their martial roots by teaching all kinds of potentially dangerous or deadly techniques in a lackadaisical manner. Do you think that choke you learn in grappling class cant kill? Tell that to all those cops that used that half ass, then ended up killing suspects. That reverse punch? (If you were able to use it) could knock someone down, and hit their head on a rock and die. In fact in my neighborhood, not even two weeks ago, there was a fight outside a club, one guy got punched, he fell and a piece of glass entered his brain on the pavement. The guy who punched him, I am sure didnt mean it to go that way. But he's in a coma, if he dies, you can bet they'll be looking at murder. Id rather be upfront about what I teach, and teach you that with greater power comes greater responsibility than lie, and have one of my guys end up in prison because they were too hasty to see if their new technique worked.

[kengar]

Originally posted by doubleouch
Black Mask
You are better than me if you don't have a problem with it. Just because that is what the arts were originally intended to do doesn't excuse it for me. I think if you are going to learn to stab people with a knife some serious soul searching is in order.

I am guessing you do not own a firearm. Also, I am lead to believe that if someone is raping your wife/girlfriend you will not pick up a knife to fend off the attacker. I'm not attacking you on this, just trying to see where you'll stand when its a matter of life and death. I have learned to break necks, but over the years I haven't done it once. It is another tool in the box if I ever find myself in a bad situation.
You have a good opinion on martial arts and their intentions and you have shown that people take up MA for different reasons. Go with what you feel comfortable with and enjoy.

Ken

[terry]

Originally posted by haumana2000
In fact in my neighborhood, not even two weeks ago, there was a fight outside a club, one guy got punched, he fell and a piece of glass entered his brain on the pavement. The guy who punched him, I am sure didnt mean it to go that way. But he's in a coma, if he dies, you can bet they'll be looking at murder.

I have worked out with a couple of prosecuting attorneys over the years. I could just see one of their closing arguments making this guy out to be an angry, unstable menace to society that trained into himself a murder weapon just waiting to go off. Poor Mrs. Brown's poor unsuspecting son had no chance or idea of what was happening when he was attacked by this villan...Add a conservative jury that wants to make an example of this hoodlum, and you've got a maximum sentence for a first time offence.

[haumana2000]

NO DOUBT!

[doubleouch]

I certainly would do whatever necessary to protect my family. I don't, however see the need to learn to kill with a knife or gun. I choose to live in a safe neighborhood. I keep myself and my family out of places that we shouldn't be. I buy my car based on saftey tests etc. The odds of me ever having to use a gun or knife to protect my family are extremely low! The world is full of dangers and we can't prepare for them all. We have to pick and choose which ones to prepare for. I am about 1000 times more likely to die in a car crash than at the hands of an attacker. I would do much better to reduce my time in the car by an hour or so a week. If I was worried about self defense I would take a firearms class, buy a gun and get a concealed weapon permit. Training martial arts for many hours a week would not do it for me. I would want the most effective tool available to me! That is why training for self defense is a bit of a psychololical dead end for me.
I hate the insinuation that just because I don't learn kali etc. that I don't care about the protection of my family or somehow I am shirking my responsibility!

[kengar]

Originally posted by doubleouch
I hate the insinuation that just because I don't learn kali etc. that I don't care about the protection of my family or somehow I am shirking my responsibility!

I thinking this might be directed at me. Dude, looky here. I am not in any way saying you have a lack of concern for you family. That would be ignorant. But if a situation arised like that you'd have a better understanding of knife tactics. There are a couple of reasons why I ask what I do, and I usually do not mean to insult or belittle anyone. I do not do Kali, though I have done some knife training. I carry a knife every day and even though I have no intentions of gutting someone, I feel much better having a good idea of how to properly use it for self defense.
As I said before, everyone has their own reasons for practicing any given Art they choose and yours is yours and mine is others and there is nothing wrong with wanting different benefits.

Ken

[rjkunlimited]

Better to be tried by twelve then carried by six.

[kengar]

Originally posted by doubleouch
I choose to live in a safe neighborhood. I keep myself and my family out of places that we shouldn't be.

Well if you live in a nice neiborhood you don't have to worry, because criminals know their not supposed to be there. Noone gets robbed, murder or raped unless they go to the wrong side of town. Sounds like you have a nice Utopia there.
I'll agree with having more chances of dying in a car wreck. Drunk drivers, cell phone users, plain morons. etc.... Another area were people are oblivious to facts.


Ken

[doubleouch]

Again, buy a gun get a concealed weapons permit. If you train primarily for self defense and you don't own and cary a gun then why not? If you do cary a gun then why train for the knife? It is a psychological dead end.

[ryanhall]

Again, buy a gun get a concealed weapons permit. If you train primarily for self defense and you don't own and cary a gun then why not? If you do cary a gun then why train for the knife? It is a psychological dead end.

Doubleouch,
I disagree that it is a dead end if you are serious about it. You train for empty hands in case you can't get a weapon, your weapon fails, or the situation doesn't justify using potentially deadly force. You train for the blade because it is the perferred weapon of most street punks and because it is extremely dangerous. Also, you can carry one with you as a utility tool. You train for firearms because the law allows you to carry them.

All this said, I think it's important to get in some healthy competition. Hitting a bag and feeling pissed all day isn't going to do you any good. That would be a-social behavior leading to a psychological dead end. One doesn't need to train boxing, BJJ, Judo, MT, etc. to get the competition factor, as sparring among your group of training partners does the job. Self-defenes training is as much of a dead end or an unending path as you decide to make it. The same goes for just about anything else in life.

Goals will vary from person to person, as will mindsets and psychological makeup. Just because someone trains Combatives, FMA, or some other 'self-defense' system doesn't say anything about them. There are people who are attracted to boxing because they get the opportunity to hurt people. Is this any less of a dead end? I am aware of Mr. Thornton's (he's your coach, right?) well-known feelings on this topic, but I beliveve that he overshoots the mark in this case. Stereotyping is something that most of us strive to get away from--including Matt. He takes issue when he hears SBG being dismissed as a jock-only MMA gym. Though that's not the truth, people believe it because it makes them feel better about what they're doing if they can classify everybody else in relation to themselves. Self-defense practitioners take issue when he and others dismiss their training offhand as either a dead end or 'just gouges and throat strikes.' Let's see if we can get away from both of these misconceptions.