False confidence - do you think this is instilling false confidence?

[nolimitskarate]

K - I have followed this thread as closely as possible and am looking for some input. Thai Bri argues that I am teachning false confidence and I say not - please respond as to who you think is correct - Thai Bri I'm sure will correct me if I have misquoted as well as add further confidence .........

Thread to follow.

[nolimitskarate]

Thai Bri - Exactly. So why teach them shit and give them false confidence?

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NLK Responds - I don't consider the confidence I instill in my students “false confidence”. I have a student that I was working with just last night that is the perfect example of this – when he started he wouldn’t even look up from the floor. This did not apply just in my class – but at school, social events, etc…..

As I watched him practice last night I realized that the way he carries himself now is far superior to the was he was when he started – eyes up, meeting his classmates on even ground and with confidence.

Last night we were simulating different situations and he, as well as the other advanced students were able to extract themselves from the situations with great efficiency.

Does this mean that they can win in the street against every given situation? No.

Does this mean that they are better equipped to defend themselves they were before they entered the MAs? I believe so.
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Thai Bri Responds - So, a poor guy who was an emotional wreck can now walk normally? I don't mean to be hard, but what has that got to do with the day two nasties want to cave his face in?
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NLK –
Nothing - other than he now has a more confident demeanor and is therfore less of a target to predators that are looking for an easy mark. He will also be more willing to stand up and defend himself now he may have previously been and is better equipped to do so.

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Thai Bri - I think that you have totally failed to answer my point about false confidence. All you did was tell me of how you made a guy feel more confident....... See how that doesn't cut it?

And as regards whether or not youre training him to be better able to defend himself, I would suggest that you're not. Well, certainly not with air punching Kata dancin' 3 steppin' nonsense.

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NLK - Ah, but see your missing the point - as I stated previously, yes those techniques are a part of the training - but not the only methods that are being used. The "simulations" that we carry on are as close to real situations as I come to making then (obviously we can't simulate 100% but we do the best we can) - we utilize both physical offenses, verbal "abuse" and multiple assailants - and this is a contact scenario - do what you need to do to get away type thing.

As for the confidence, I fail to see your point - if you feel more confident and carry yourself more confidante how is this false confidence?


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Thai Bri - Because you need to able to back it up when someone calls your bluff. Isn't it obvious?

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NLK - Never said it was a bluff ........ ( Ok this was not a very valid argument – I’ll conced the point on It …)

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Thai Bri –
No, you didn't. Its me that says it is.

I have known good clubs, that train hard and effectively. They usde hard contact, tough physical conditioning and frightening scenario based techniques. These clubs are as rare as rocking horse shit.

I have also seen mainstream martial arts, where people wear pyjamas, hit thin air, dance with Katas, play tag and generally prat about like morons. They too feel that they are undertaking tough and realistic self defence training.

If your club is like the former, why oh why are you wasting your time with the techniques of the latter?

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NLK –

Again - We utilize these other tecniques to learn the basics - call them our training wheels if you like - good technique is important -it's very easy to hurt yourself by punching or kick incorrectly - (I.e> break a wrist, tear a tendon, etc......_.). They also build balance and help increase flexability - the focus then becomes how to apply the techniques - and this involves the latter techniques that we discussed.

Last point on Katas - Yes I think they have a purpose for "finding techniques" - but mostly I use them to train my mind and body to work togethor - I find they give me better clarity and are a great stress reliever (again it's not all physical - some of it has to do with mental fitness as well) - plus, if there done CORRECTLY - they do build stamina a strength ( I know hit the bag - I do that to but some times it's nice to mix it up).

Final point on confidence - my experiance is that a large number of preditors want an easy target - they will stay away from someone who is willing to meet them eye to eye and carry themsleves with confidece and ease - I want to eliminate as many offenders as possible by teaching non physical means to eliminate aggressors, then what are we left with .....

Obviously, there are those thugs who just want to get it on for the sake of wreaking vioulence - these are the ones where we must back it up - walk the walk so to speak - these are the ones that we must train the hardest for.
Theres a difference between a response and a satisfactory response.

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Thai Bri -

For example, I say that you're inefficient training is giving a guy false confidence. You say "I never said I was giving him false confidence". Not much of a retort. You're answering an accusation I never made. Think. I never accused you of saying it, I accused you of doing it.

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NLK -

Thai Bri -

You are incorrect I responded with "I don't consider the confidence I instill in my students “false confidence”. "- but then proceeded to explain why I believe that this is not true - why confidence is important and where it plays a roll. I have not seen an argument from you to dispute these facts.

??

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[Thai Bri]

This is like an Orwellian nightmare.

Take a chil pill and go and learn how to fight.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
This is like an Orwellian nightmare.

Take a chil pill and go and learn how to fight.

You throught down the first challenge with the "who has a closed mind thread" - just responding in turn .........

[Szczepankiewicz]

I'd have to see you train, train with you, and talk to your students before I could vote on this.

Bri Thai is correct in that most schools fill a student with a false sense of security. I've listened in to kickboxing, kenpo, karate and other TMA styles students mouthing off in conversation about how they would go about dispatching the local thuggary.

If you are teaching the right way (whatever that is) then you and your school are most certainly the exception, not the rule.

Spanky

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
I'd have to see you train, train with you, and talk to your students before I could vote on this.

Bri Thai is correct in that most schools fill a student with a false sense of security. I've listened in to kickboxing, kenpo, karate and other TMA styles students mouthing off in conversation about how they would go about dispatching the local thuggary.

If you are teaching the right way (whatever that is) then you and your school are most certainly the exception, not the rule.

Spanky

I agree - remember though that although Karate is my primary style - it is not my only style, and we do mix .......

[Thai Bri]

Yeah, you said. You put a bit of Aikido in it.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Yeah, you said. You put a bit of Aikido in it.

Follow more closely Thai Bri - your losing track ....... more than just Aikido, sorry ........

[chris davis 200]

I've listened in to kickboxing, kenpo, karate and other TMA styles students mouthing off in conversation about how they would go about dispatching the local thuggary

Uhh - i only see one 'kindof TMA' style there.

[Thai Bri]

This guy reckons he can just throw in a bit of this and a bit of that. But its ok, they attack each other like Hamsters would anyway, so they'll be safe. In the Dojo.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
This guy reckons he can just throw in a bit of this and a bit of that. But its ok, they attack each other like Hamsters would anyway, so they'll be safe. In the Dojo.

I'm not "Throwing in" a bit of this and a bit of that - go back and look again - we train hard and we take what we're doing very seriously - you just don't seem to be able to get past the fact that it's possible to blend traditional training with more modern training and accomplish more than one goal.

So in answer to your question (of another thread) - I believe you have a closed mind.

[Thai Bri]

Training hard? Training seriously?

I'm looking for the words "training effectively". It is not just coincidence that those words are missing.

[nolimitskarate]

Yep - training effectively ( you missed that part earlier, I explained it at length) - but then it's easier to pick the statements you THINK you can easily refute and ignore the rest - because they just might be valid....................

[Thai Bri]

I read it all. I didn't see anything efficient though.

Learning is a tough and hard process. You're going through it now. But it involves coming out of your comfort zone. I know. I had to do it too. But at least I wasn't responsible for taking students away from the path to effective fight training. I only did it to myself.

But it isn't rocket science. When you do finally manage to get rid of your ego you will see that Katas, air punching and pretending to know Aikido is NOT the way to go.

Keep at it. You will get there.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by Thai Bri

But it isn't rocket science. When you do finally manage to get rid of your ego you will see that Katas, air punching and pretending to know Aikido is NOT the way to go.

Keep at it. You will get there.

Thai Bri - no disrespect, but you keep focusing on the same arguments - the areas of training that you don't think are effectvie and don't see a place for - and ignoring the rest of the package. -- Let's throw the katas and one steps argument aside for a while --

So tell me how:

1) Bag / Target Training is ineffective or inefficient ?? (you seem to think it's ok for the MT guys .......)

2) Contact Sparring ??

4) Multi - opponent sparring?

5) Simulated / Reality based training?

6) Grappling, throws, holds, bars?

??