What's wrong with karate?

[darrianation]

Lies

Peyton Quinn once said of traditional arts “They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems."

Traditional MAs as I see it actively refuses to seek a realistic understanding of the variables, complexities of real violence.

The traditionalists have sold us a lie and we are buying it up left and right. You buy into that lie, and after a while you end up believing it.

One part of this lie is unarmed Techniques, are superior to weaponry. Eh’ wrong! Not everyone of course The FMAs don’t but what about the others? They do. In most karate schools and other traditional MAs either don’t teach weapons or do not teach the type of weapons you might have to face on the street Like a pool cue, brick, knife, or gun.

In one of the combative courses I went through in the military taught us That H2H (unarmed) techniques are premised on:
1) A weapon as in a M16 is better than a sidearm. A sidearm is better than a knife. A knife is better than a fist. A fist is better than being dead.
2) H2H gives you time to draw your secondary weapon because if your primary weapon was working there would be no need for H2H.
3) H2H provides you with time for your teammates to arrive.

*H2H is always secondary to weapons.

If you look at the Samurai the same was true for them the sword was better than the hands/feet. Jujitsu was only used to provide time and survivability until the samurai could pick up another weapon, or his friends arrived. So why do so many MAs gotten away from this or teach traditional weapons instead of today’s weapons? Are they better? No in fact most of them don’t apply at all or not very well. A sword is still as deadly as it ever was but firearms are deadlier, and knives are more easily concealed than swords. The bow, sai’s, and etc find very little practicality in today’s world. Not many BGs bad guys use these.

Another problem is far too many traditional arts rely on fine motor skills and not enough on gross motor skill. This is a problem because the cognitive brain shuts down to some degree and the primitive brain takes over when the adrenaline hits and we go into fight or flight mode. Basically meaning all of our movements and reactions are all, or at least near all, on a sub conscious level.

The good news is we can train these reactions to do what you want but it has to be done in a certain way. One principle that traditional and non-traditional both share is repetition. Other than that this training needs to consist of using natural reactions to situations and turning them into our favor and using techniques that are simple and direct or in other words gross motor skilled.

Gross motor skills:
1) Gross motor skills are defined as the movements of the large muscles of the body.
2) Motor learning on an elemental level, is a set of internal processes that leads to a relatively permanent change in an individual's capability for skilled motor performance.
3) Skilled learning through repetition and easily repeated without conscious thought

An example would be: putting your hands up in front of your face in reaction to someone punching at your head would be both a natural reaction and a gross motor skill while trying a circular block followed by a trap would be an unnatural reaction and a fine motor skill. See the difference?

Less is more simply means you are better off focusing on fewer techniques that are closer to gross motor skills and becoming very proficient with them. This will cut your reaction time in half in a real life situation.

Quote by Jim Wagner "What I do in the street is effective AS A RESULT OF WHAT I'VE THROWN AWAY. In other words I have stripped my martial arts down to its barest constituent minimum, so as to work 99% of the time."

Another part of this lie is the traditional arts are built upon a precept that most people do not seem to be aware of. The self-defenses are built around predictability. Think about it every time you practice a SD technique you know what you partner is going to do. You can even defend him at full speed with him not cooperating but you still know what he is going to do.

I discovered this when I was working on weapons defenses against knives. If I knew the grip and the strike my partner was going to use regardless of speed and cooperation I am able to defend 99.9% of the time with no problem. But if he uses an unknown attack with an unknown grip at full speed with feints, or punches from his non-weapons hand, or kicks as a lead or as follow ups my percentages for successful defenses went way down 50% range.

I learned that grabbing for feints can cost me my life in a real situation, gunting and defangs did not work 90% of the time when I did not know what, when, or how he would attack, but worked 90% of the time only when I knew the type of attack he was going to use and was aggressive and offensive with it.

One drill I would have my various workout partners do, some with knife training and some without (although all were martial artists) is put a knife in their belt and attack. It was up to them to decide when and how they would use the knife (safety knife of course). They may take me to the ground then pull the knife or wait until I have them in a clinch, or I have thrown them to the ground then they would do a sudden knife attack. They would try to hide the fact that they had the knife in their hand and ready to stab/slash. I found it very difficult to defend with any real measure of success.

But when I put a knife in their hand and told them to attack I had no problems defending successfully. Almost all my training has been against some type of predictable attack, even though it may have been at full speed. This type of training does not prepare you for the unpredictable. Just like what I did against the 4th dan shotokan guy.

What i have found that works is use universal techniques that work against several type of attacks. If some one pulls a weapon like a knife, Run! If you can't for some reason grab and use a hasty weapon like a pool cue, chair, candle holder, rock, tree branch, beer mug, etc and swing em', throw em' like you mean until you find the oppertunity to escape. If this is not possible use kicks and keep them low, to shins, knees , groin, but keep distance between you and the knife. Next parry and counter. Next disarms as last resort. Don't be fancy, You will only get yourself killed!


Training
1) train for the unpredictable
2) Training needs to be as real as possible
3) Throw out the crap and keep what works. keep your weapons locker clean and to the bare minimum
4) Keep it simple
5) Survive!

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Peyton Quinn once said of traditional arts “They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems."

Traditional MAs as I see it actively refuses to seek a realistic understanding of the variables, complexities of real violence.

The traditionalists have sold us a lie and we are buying it up left and right. You buy into that lie, and after a while you end up believing it.

One part of this lie is unarmed Techniques, are superior to weaponry. Eh’ wrong! Not everyone of course The FMAs don’t but what about the others? They do. In most karate schools and other traditional MAs either don’t teach weapons or do not teach the type of weapons you might have to face on the street Like a pool cue, brick, knife, or gun.

In one of the combative courses I went through in the military taught us That H2H (unarmed) techniques are premised on:
1) A weapon as in a M16 is better than a sidearm. A sidearm is better than a knife. A knife is better than a fist. A fist is better than being dead.
2) H2H gives you time to draw your secondary weapon because if your primary weapon was working there would be no need for H2H.
3) H2H provides you with time for your teammates to arrive.

*H2H is always secondary to weapons.

how do traditional arts teach that unarmed is superior over armed?
The weapons you mentioned do you mean they should use it as a weapon? Or defend against?
Guns aren't allowed here nor is carying a large knife and in the center of Amsterdam and other big cities any knife is prohibited, teargas and pepperspray aren't allowed either, any stick with a handle might be considered a weapon


As for the brick, yeah I would tell them to use that or anything you coulld hit with, so a poolcue would fit the bill, garbage-can, throw it at him ( usually attackers are male)

the one lesson that stuck about defending against a weapon is first control the weapon then the person
If you don't first control the weapon, it might hit you or one of your friend by accident

I did instruct one specific weapon, eda koppo a small stick about 6 inch long and told them many of the things we did could be done with a pen too

I must say that very few students of mine ever started doing karate for SD reasons
I still think you shouldn't start karate for that reason, it takes too long, do karate because you like it and over time toy will probably ( depending on the student) be able to do so, se it as a bonus
Young timid kids would be entered to gain some confidence ( because it is individual but trained in a group it is easier for them)
Others would be entered to tome them down a bit ( due to the discipline)

Peronally I can't think of any martia art at all that would be great at SD without alterations, none of the arts I did was, none but jiu jitsu claimed it.

I get the feeling there is a huge difference between Europe and the States when it comes to this, we are in it for the fun
Now that all might change in the future seeing that we have more and more senseless violence

[darrianation]

how do traditional arts teach that unarmed is superior over armed?
The weapons you mentioned do you mean they should use it as a weapon? Or defend against?
Guns aren't allowed here nor is carying a large knife and in the center of Amsterdam and other big cities any knife is prohibited, teargas and pepperspray aren't allowed either, any stick with a handle might be considered a weapon


As for the brick, yeah I would tell them to use that or anything you coulld hit with, so a poolcue would fit the bill, garbage-can, throw it at him ( usually attackers are male)

the one lesson that stuck about defending against a weapon is first control the weapon then the person
If you don't first control the weapon, it might hit you or one of your friend by accident

I did instruct one specific weapon, eda koppo a small stick about 6 inch long and told them many of the things we did could be done with a pen too

I must say that very few students of mine ever started doing karate for SD reasons
I still think you shouldn't start karate for that reason, it takes too long, do karate because you like it and over time toy will probably ( depending on the student) be able to do so, se it as a bonus
Young timid kids would be entered to gain some confidence ( because it is individual but trained in a group it is easier for them)
Others would be entered to tome them down a bit ( due to the discipline)

Peronally I can't think of any martia art at all that would be great at SD without alterations, none of the arts I did was, none but jiu jitsu claimed it.

I get the feeling there is a huge difference between Europe and the States when it comes to this, we are in it for the fun
Now that all might change in the future seeing that we have more and more senseless violence

This is an interesting conundrum (well, at least to me). It seems to me that most of the classes I have participated in, or have sat in on that a very large percentage are given to punching/kicking or in other words spent doing empty handed techniques. I really do not consider the time spent practicing with swords, sais, and other traditional weapons, not that there isn’t some value to training in them but that value is somewhat limited because of the way they are trained and emphasis in really not placed in combat. If you do not carry swords, sais, and etc for self-protection then why train in them. Of course there are reasons to train with them like for fun, interest, or competition.

Now of course there weapons based arts, I have studied Arnis for instance, and found my training invaluable but there are some problems here too. I found that some of the defenses a bit unpractical and though I love the sticks we spent way to much time on them and not enough on knife.

I am not trying to argue what technique are better than others. I agree with you controlling the weapon is ideal if you cannot not escape and you have to fight. Of course if your not armed yourself it would be better to grab a hasty weapon then to attempt a disarm. Believe me a disarm is last resort and out of desperation.

I have researched this and researched this. I have a Kali friend (he has trained in KB, and kenpo too) that comes to see me 2-3 times a year and he refreshes my stick skills but we also put each other through our paces with knives. It is true if I stand in front of him with a knife in my hand and attack, he can successfully defend and vise versa. How ever if I put the knife on my belt and attack him empty handed then I pull the knife in my own time I can get (stab/slash) him at least 90% of the time. I also do this with other MA friends.

We train each other to be slick and hide the knife so the other doesn’t even know if the other has a knife. We train to look at the belt lines, pockets, hands that may be hidden behind the leg, or back for telltale signs of weapons. We fight like this and the unarmed guy doesn’t know for sure if the other is even armed let alone if he’ll use the knife, or when, and how. If you train this way you’ll find that all those techniques you thought you knew and could apply, just don’t work a large percentage of the time.

Reality based training is important! Finding the techniques that work a large percentage of the time is important. Your traditional MAs experience may different from mine but in far too many schools across the world and especially in the United States their training is not based in reality and the techniques are not practiced correctly or applied appropriately.

I agree that people shouldn't do karate for SD but they do. The Karate school and organizations promote this aspect as well. In the phone book you in the MA section of the yellow pages you see SD every where. SD in ads for tai chi quan, karate,TKD, and etc, etc, etc.

I have said this so many times that I really don’t have a problem with karate or most traditional arts, I have a problem about them promoting themselves as practical self-defense arts.

In a nut shell if you alter (for example) Shotokan to be effective at SD then it is no longer Shotokan and the JKA will go out in an all out assault, cut you off and make people think you nothing but a bunch of whackos.

[darrianation]

Lineage isn't important butyou aswered my question anyway, the teacher was a 2nd dan goju

you should have lived in the Netherlands in the 80's, you would have had mch more fights in MT

I can immagine you left pitty you feel you might have left just a tad to early

how easy was the switch to MT?

Sorry I got off on some tangents there.

To answer you question about my transition into MT it was fairly easy. It felt very natural and I picked it up fast. I could watch some of the more experienced guys perform techniques and combos, then I could do them just by watching and at times my coach would even ask if I had prior MT training. Of course I did need some instructing and correcting from time to time.

However I never completely rid myself of Karate habits which would drive my coach insane. Some of those habits were helpful but some were counter productive. I kept using techniques that work well in Karate sparring or in point tournaments that did not work well in full contact MT style fighting.

To this day my personal style of fighting is a bastard breed of MT, Karate, and techniques/strategies that I have picked up along the way. I cannot completely separate one art from another when I am sparring or fighting. However once every thing is said and done it benefits me to have training in different arts.

As far as fights you need to understand there were only a handful of MT gyms in the U.S. in the early 80's and it hadn't reached popularity yet. The MT gym I trained at was the only one in the state at the time. So we mostly fought in american rules Kick boxing. It was fun and full contact but no elbows,knees etc.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Darr

I stop quoting because our post are already long enough without them

I agree escape is the first option

Well actually totaly agree with you

I like the way you train with your friend, I will remember that one

As for the organisations claiming it, luckely not overhere
but that's because the dutch, contrary to the UK Germany French and so on we for instance do not have a prowrestling scene because people knew it was fake and therefore can't be emotional about it
we are common-sensed/sober minded people
Also we don't have this traditional vs contact rivalry
People started doing the contactstuff because it was a better way of doing matches sinse a KO can't be denied not because they thought what they did before was crap

As for easy switching, I had the same experience, no matter what I did after it, it was all easy to adapt

what were the habits that drove your instructor nuts?

btw in the 80's elbows weren't, but knees were allowed in the Netherlands, this was done because otherwise goverment would prohibit it
(cagefights are, because the first was advertisted as such)

[Phorce]

Hi..i didnt have time to read ALL the posts..so i think ill just step in with my own words like usual...

ive been doin Wado-Ryu for a long time now, and i believe it to be one of the purest forms of Karate around nowdays..when its taught properly....

The club i train at at times is VERY watered down: the teacher does not perfect the youngsters, and so they develop bad mistakes/habits. All it seems that he is interested in is making money by attracting more youngsters by looking good in the papers. Admittedly he does have 2 members on the adult England Squad, and many on the junior squad, but when i took in a book with some Shotokan examples of defence techniques he forbid me to ever take it in, that: "they might see it"..and like it and then change types of karate. With rising prices it seems like all the trainers are after is money.

so i got out...i now train at a small (4students and one sensai) jujtsu club- where the sensai lets you find your own style, and fight however you feel comfortable. But, Karate has given me a priceless foundation for fighting, and helped build my character.

Dont know why i told you this.

Keep trainin Karate..

[darrianation]

Darr

I stop quoting because our post are already long enough without them

I agree escape is the first option

Well actually totaly agree with you

I like the way you train with your friend, I will remember that one

As for the organisations claiming it, luckely not overhere
but that's because the dutch, contrary to the UK Germany French and so on we for instance do not have a prowrestling scene because people knew it was fake and therefore can't be emotional about it
we are common-sensed/sober minded people
Also we don't have this traditional vs contact rivalry
People started doing the contactstuff because it was a better way of doing matches sinse a KO can't be denied not because they thought what they did before was crap

As for easy switching, I had the same experience, no matter what I did after it, it was all easy to adapt

what were the habits that drove your instructor nuts?

btw in the 80's elbows weren't, but knees were allowed in the Netherlands, this was done because otherwise goverment would prohibit it
(cagefights are, because the first was advertisted as such)

Sorry I took so long to reply. The big things were easier to stop doing than the littler things.

For example:
1) Things that worked well in karate sparring/tournament- I would throw a rear leg front kick to the lower mid section and when my opponent would drop his guard I would change mid kick (same leg) to a high round house. This is not very powerful but good for points- This was easy to correct because after eating some strong rights I stopped doing this.
2) Smaller things like In MT you raise up on the ball of the supporting foot when you kick/knee not in karate. Twisting feet and rotating shoulders and back when punching done in MT but not in karate. These things got me lots of pushups and yelled at a lot.

I did Wado and MT for a years simultaneously, it got easier when I finally decided to drop karate.

[Tom Yum]

the dutch, contrary to the UK Germany French and so on we for instance do not have a prowrestling scene because people knew it was fake and therefore can't be emotional about it
we are common-sensed/sober minded people

That's terrible! A nation with common-sensed/sober minded people ....jj

[darrianation]

That's terrible! A nation with common-sensed/sober minded people ....jj

Yea whats up with that?

Also Toud- there were a few otherthings too.

I would throw front snap kicks instead of teeps (push kicks) this would really get my coach going. Same with side teeps. I would throw side kicks. I mean I could do them just fine during shadow boxing, bag/pad work but in sparring I would revert back to karate habits.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

That's terrible! A nation with common-sensed/sober minded people ....jj

You try to translate "nuchter volk" , you have been here, so you might understand what I mean
I used Euroglot to translate it, but like "Gezellig" it might not translate too well

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Yea whats up with that?

Also Toud- there were a few otherthings too.

I would throw front snap kicks instead of teeps (push kicks) this would really get my coach going. Same with side teeps. I would throw side kicks. I mean I could do them just fine during shadow boxing, bag/pad work but in sparring I would revert back to karate habits.

In dutch a teep would be "een afhoudtrap" a kick to hold your opponent from you

I must say the teep is the one kick that is rarely seen in MMA, there the frontkick is use more but also rarely as a real kick, instead to force a reaction of the opponent

BTW I started doing MT/kickboxing and Savate when I was a 1 kyu Wado karate ( which wasn't influenced by Goju), for Savate I entered a teacher course for other MAs so got everything crammed into a short period
Plus some of the attendees were already Kickboxing instructors and during the breaks we would be discussing things like this ( I remember being instructed in the Lowkick coming from the from, driving it into the leg which is perfectly siuted for clinching)

Im blessed with a fastlearning analitical mind, that kept me from the common mistakes I think, at 42 I'm still learning fast especially at work ( ICT)

BTW the meea, mawashi geeri you mentioned before, I've seen it break a jaw and a pallette(SP?) + something else but forgot that one, all by scrowny guys against bigger build opponents and all on one day and all in noncontact karate ( we were ashamed by this)

[darrianation]

In dutch a teep would be "een afhoudtrap" a kick to hold your opponent from you

I must say the teep is the one kick that is rarely seen in MMA, there the frontkick is use more but also rarely as a real kick, instead to force a reaction of the opponent

BTW I started doing MT/kickboxing and Savate when I was a 1 kyu Wado karate ( which wasn't influenced by Goju), for Savate I entered a teacher course for other MAs so got everything crammed into a short period
Plus some of the attendees were already Kickboxing instructors and during the breaks we would be discussing things like this ( I remember being instructed in the Lowkick coming from the from, driving it into the leg which is perfectly siuted for clinching)

Im blessed with a fastlearning analitical mind, that kept me from the common mistakes I think, at 42 I'm still learning fast especially at work ( ICT)

BTW the meea, mawashi geeri you mentioned before, I've seen it break a jaw and a pallette(SP?) + something else but forgot that one, all by scrowny guys against bigger build opponents and all on one day and all in noncontact karate ( we were ashamed by this)

You’re not calling me slow are? I think I did well learning MT anyway I really wanted to fight in the ring. Mostly we fought in Kick boxing venues; we got a few MT armature rules fights too. It wasn’t until I was in the military and not training on a regular basis in a MT gym (but still training on a regular basis) that I started getting pro rules fights. This made it hard and I lost fights I probably would have won if I had a regular trainer.

I never totally got away from karate stuff but I don’t think it ever hindered me. I was just always a bastared child. When I went to shito they would say stop doing that do it like this, or in other styles the same way. The only other art that I did that wasn’t like that is arnis it was a pretty comfortable fit.

Shotokan I don’t even think it is a martial art. It isn’t as bazaar as uechi but it is definitely a step or two down from wado. I stopped learning shotokan I still go twice a week and spar with them though.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

You’re not calling me slow are? I think I did well learning MT anyway I really wanted to fight in the ring. Mostly we fought in Kick boxing venues; we got a few MT armature rules fights too. It wasn’t until I was in the military and not training on a regular basis in a MT gym (but still training on a regular basis) that I started getting pro rules fights. This made it hard and I lost fights I probably would have won if I had a regular trainer.

I never totally got away from karate stuff but I don’t think it ever hindered me. I was just always a bastared child. When I went to shito they would say stop doing that do it like this, or in other styles the same way. The only other art that I did that wasn’t like that is arnis it was a pretty comfortable fit.

Shotokan I don’t even think it is a martial art. It isn’t as bazaar as uechi but it is definitely a step or two down from wado. I stopped learning shotokan I still go twice a week and spar with them though.

Me calling you slow...no way man, you were probably learning faster than the average student anyway, it's just I seem to learn very fast and have this chaotic brain that allows me to make links in any possible way

I did TKD for a few months ( just to get some extra physical training) and because I knew sweeps were seen as low attacks I never fell for that trap even though ITF TKD with their side stance ask for it, the same stance that made it impossible for them to score a dropkick on me since you know the will use the frontleg ( backleg takes too long and can be defended by a 65 years old grandmother)

When I did Ashihara at the Mejiro gym I impressed the others because I did 10 full power lowkick with each leg on a trucktire ( huh, you must be crazy)
I'm like Triple H, I know how to play "the Game"

Uechi ryu bizare? what about Isshin ryu then, to me that looks more bizare then Uechi

[bugei]

I think the fact that many martial artists don't expect a high level of violence is just a result of the modern world. We are seldom forced to fight for our lives or rights, so we take for granted that violence is uncommon. Senseis need to stress the fact that a fight can be violent.

[kcigam]

Wouldnt it be much more effective against a pronounced target which can generate pain with little effort. Besides if you want to strike the temple dont you want a penetrating strike which would kill them?

Umm.... no. If i wanted to kill someone, i'd just buy a gun from one of the many many kind street vendors in downtown Whatevercityyoulivein. If I'm in a streetfight, I want to make the guy want to stop fighting (either by knocking him out, taking out a knee, or hurting him till he doesn't want any more) WITHOUT killing him and having the rest of my fights be over my manbitch in prison. IMHO