What's wrong with karate?

[darrianation]

This is kind of a carry over thread from the thread “So what can be done to fix Karate?”
Irrigator Writes:
“let me start out by saying that im far from any kind of master. ive studied martial arts some, and philosophy some too. despite my limitations in classroom study, the only thing that ocurs to me upon reading your question "what can be done to fix karate?" is 'what did you miss in your journey that makes you think a fix is necesary?'. to my way of thinking, 'fix' implies that its broken in the first place, to which i can only respond that you are probably mistaking a por teacher for a broken system.
In america, we suffer a letigious society. This being the case, the introductory levels of many styles have indeed been 'watered down', however, at the advanced levels, the various systems remain dependant upon lineage. that is, one cannot teach what one does not know, thus, one cannot learn from unlearned teachers.
The common misconception today is that mma competitions negate the experiences, the teachings of the past. this could nto be farther from the truth. while mma competitions are fun and challenging tests of ones various skill sets, they are not combat. combat is the fire that forged teh various traditional styles, and it is simply youthfull arrogance to reject as obsolete the traditional past. arrogance, and ignorance, for one cannot be falsely confident of what one doenst even know he hasnt been taught.”



I want to tell you a story about a friend of mine. His name is matt. Matt is a quiet kind of guy, but very witty and tells a good story. He’s the kind of guy every one who knows him likes him.

Matt has trained in Shito ryu for 7 years and prides himself as the best tournament competitor in our dojo (that’s debatable). He holds a black belt that he is very proud of.

Matt, I, and other friends liked to frequent the bars around San Diego (just about every night). One night we had come into one of our favorite clubs they play mostly punk music and was always packed. The smoke was always very thick and choking so we on occasion would go outside for fresh air. We would spend about 20 minutes outside then go back in.

One night after about three beers we decided to go out for some air, there were four of us on this night. As we stood there talking to some honeys this guy wearing western wear (cowboy hat and boots, jeans and a t-shirt came walking up towards the front door.

Matt being slightly inebriated and in one of his talkative lets party moods yelled out “Hey you, they don’t allow your kind in there!” Now Matt was just joking around you know having a good time, but this cowboy-looking dude (for here after he’ll be mentioned only as cowboy dude) just didn’t get the joke. Cowboy dude stopped dead in his tracks and turned and began yelling all sorts of obscenities at poor ol’ Matt.
He came storming over and stopped just short of face to face with Matt. Matt immediately apologizes to cowboy dude. Matt didn’t want to fight he just thought he was being funny.

Cowboy dude stared at Matt and after a few seconds of uncomfortable silence cowboy dude burst forth a barrage of punches. Right, left, right, then a right again. Poor ol’ Matt was caught off guard.

Matt tried ducking but was caught by an uppercut. Matt then reached out, out of desperation and grabbed on in a bear hug. He lost his balance and they both fell to the ground, but Matt held on for dear life. The whole fight took place in a matter of seconds then it was over.

Well we decided (the other three of us) to break it up, so we pounded cowboy dude and he left running (Note to all you don’t go to the ground in the street, you never know who’s there waiting to pound you).

So here’s this black belt with 7 years of Karate training and an excellent tournament fighter (he could sure take me on points) who got into a fight and never landed a punch, a kick, or any other technique except a bear hug (not usually a part of the regular karate curriculum).

He remembers the fight a little differently than the rest of us. He says he was in a fight with a giant bodybuilder. Actually they were both about the same size. The truth be told Matt was probably a little bigger.

I asked him about that fight and he says he wasn’t prepared for the level of violence he found himself under. There you have it! The whole problem with karate, Karate did not prepare him for the incredible amount of violence that you may be up against in a street fight.

Street fights can be very explosive, sudden, and violent. Most Karate instructors do not prepare their students for this. Karate in general is not geared towards this.

Any good self-defense instructor will tell you of how sudden and violent these confrontations can be.

This is what’s wrong with Karate! And the reason for thread “So what can be done to fix Karate?”

[brokenelbow]

Not karate's fault, you can find the same thing from JKD to kickboxing. "The whole problem with karate, Karate did not prepare him for the incredible amount of violence that you may be up against in a street fight." The entire problem is the instruction that he received was to be a point fighter, nothing more and nothing less.

I tried something out during sparring a while back where instead of throwing jabs and waiting for an opening I'd just force the issue, I'd just go in. In almost every case I got the advantage. If the other was too close to the wall and couldn't get away I did even better. The entire school, myself included, were trained to spar, and everyone got comfy with that.

[Thai Bri]

Your both missing the point. The same thing can happen to ANY person from ANY art. Unless........

Unless you get into the pre confrontation issues like:-

awareness
avoidance
the fence
verbal de-escalation etc.

And unless you learn how and when to strike pre-emptively.

Matt was an ass for having a go at cowboy dude. No offence, I've done that kind of thing myself as a younger (and even more stupid) man. But Matt could have avoided the whole thing.

And, even if this cowboy picked on him for no reason whatsoever, Matt could have lined him up and taken him down by using the fence and the pre emptive strike. Just how long did the cowboy stand there? Just one "odd" question would have made him think "what the fluck is he on about?", and then that precise moment could have been used to put him in sleepy land.

Yes, I DO think that the vast majority of Karate is crap. But Matt could still have APPLIED it if he'd known about the pre confrontation issues.

And where did I get all my impressive knowledge ( )? I got it here www.geoffthompson.com

Look for videos such as "the Pavement Arena" series. Or books such as "Dead or Alive".


You guys need to look at this. Honestly. I only got into it in the last couple of years. It helps you actually APPLY your skills. It takes you to the next level.

[kengar]

The same thing can happen to ANY person from ANY art

Absolutely. If you've only geared your training to win points in a tournament you are not going to recognize the early stages of the fight and you're not going to be able to comprehend the violence of a fight. You could still have some of this problem if you're doing the 'correct training'. The greatest training could never be the real thing, but not training realistically - deer in headlights.

I like karate, and I'm trying to fix my schedule so I can get back into it while allowing myself time for other things, you can take an MA just be real about what is dojo and what is the street.



Ken

[darrianation]

The above story is the essence of what I believe to be wrong with most martial arts. I know that all not all martial arts aren’t like this or all instructors are bad. But I still assert that most traditional MAs have a piss poor approach to self-defense. I agree the techniques are there. I agree it’s about the application of the techniques. Not too many traditional arts are application oriented, they teach the techniques but only to a small degree do they teach proper and effective application. Also they don’t train the mental and psychological aspects of self-defense. They don’t usually even consider the explosive and violent nature of a street confrontation. The karate or trad’ student doesn’t realize this either this is why a tried and true street thug has the advantage.

Most of my instructors are very smart, intelligent, and practical. Then comes the part of the evening when we do SD and all of a sudden they become so dumb you’d have to plant them and water them twice a week. For an example: They will start off with a choke defense. He will have a student place their hands around his throat. Doesn’t he know choke defense starts with not letting someone get their hands around your throat in the first place? Train that first then work on “if they did get the choke”.

They will say you can’t just hit someone because you’ll go to jail, so grab their hand like this and twist until they say uncle. I personally don’t see the difference between breaking someone’s wrist and punching then in the jaw. Except punching the guy’s jaw is faster and chances of having the desired effect is better than trying to grab the guy’s hand correctly and twisting the right direction while you adrenaline is pumping and the bad guy isn’t cooperating with your attempt of making him submit. More likely why you are twisting his right wrist he’s pounding you with his left.

I guess they don’t realize your life may actually be in danger. I say you train and fight like it is!

Matt was never told or shown how violent a street fight could be. He was never taught how to handle his fear. He was not trained to deal with the adrenaline rush and it’s subsequent dump. He really wasn’t prepared for this situation. His Karate instructor failed him. Of course the fight was all Matt’s fault let’s not forget that. So many traditional MA teachers fail their students when their training will matter the most!

[darrianation]

Brokenelbow writes:
“Not karate's fault, you can find the same thing from JKD to kickboxing. "The whole problem with karate, Karate did not prepare him for the incredible amount of violence that you may be up against in a street fight." The entire problem is the instruction that he received was to be a point fighter, nothing more and nothing less.”


Exactly right, unfortunately this is all too common in traditional MA schools!

To be trained in tournament, culture, or for fitness is fine nothing wrong with that! It’s fine if you do MA for spiritual reasons, perfection of character, or what ever. The problem comes when they make the statement that you will learn to defend yourself. I have no problem with any of them as long as they do not proclaim they teach self-defense. Unless they take it seriously train correctly and teach outcome based strategies and mental/psychological preparedness.

We forget that karate came from real combat and the real need for self-defense. It’s not used for that anymore so we forget, forget what’s real. Our instructors haven’t used in combat and their instructor haven’t either. So they continue to teach with their eyes closed to its true purpose.

You can tell me all day long karate is to develop character, discipline, and fitness (not that that’s a bad thing), but this is such a cop out. Our violent criminals, and the drunks at the bar do not live by the dojo kun or some ancient Budo code. Pacifism will not help us when some thug wants to stomp your head in, neither will seeking perfection of character.

Development of skills carefully engineered towards successful application of their techniques, and the mental/psychological training will prepare you for these unpredictable situations.

Let’s take a look and analyze what happened here to Matt.

1) The most obvious thing is he shouldn’t have said anything to the cowboy-guy. This would have negated any bad situation.
2) Matt didn’t recognize the threat. It was very obvious that this guy was upset and was going to do something about it.
3) Matt did not keep his distance. Sometimes just putting your hands up (not in a fighting stance or guard) in a hey what’s up kind of way might have made the guy stop further away than he did. Once someone steps inside your arms reach then you must assume an attack.
4) Matt just couldn’t believe this guy was attacking him and he panicked and hesitated (“he who hesitates, will do so in the horizontal position”, or something like that).
5) Matt had to resort to techniques that are not part of his every day training. The bear hug. It worked it prevented cowboy-dude from hitting him anymore.
That’s funny the one technique that worked wasn’t a karate technique.

In a way Matt was successful; he walked away with out any major injuries, just a swollen eye, a bloody lip, and a chipped tooth, and of course a badly bruised ego.

If our instructor would have paid more attention and took SD more seriously maybe Matt would have known the different stages of an attack. Maybe he would have recognized the threat and would have been mentally and physically ready for it. It would have given his karate techniques a better chance of working.


The stages of attack as I have been taught and have come to believe in general (there are always special circumstances and exceptions).

1) You recognize there is a problem. Some one staring at you, following you, or there has been some previous confrontation, or something like this.
2) The person makes the approach. He will be strutting (posing) making himself look bigger. He may put on his game face.
3) Now he is verbally assaulting you. Threatening you. He may be shouting using obscenities. This is when you get that pit in your gut. Things are very close to going physical at this point.
4) He is now using short one, or two word sentences something like i gonna'...and he is coming closer. He will usually just be in arms range then POW. He will swing on you, or grab you, or both. The fight is on!


Avoidance and your brain is the most important thing to keeping you safe. Learning these things is paramount to your self-defense training. Recognizing the signs of an attack is next. Knowing what to do and or say to de-escalate is next, then knowing how to deal with that pit in your gut (fear). Then executing your techniques successfully is the last thing. Also how to deal with the police, you really need to know what to say and what not too.



Well that’s my lecture for now. Stay tuned for further discourse in self-defense 101

[brokenelbow]

Unless you get into the pre confrontation issues like:-
awareness, avoidance, the fence,verbal de-escalation etc.
And unless you learn how and when to strike pre-emptively.

You're right and to me those are just givens. Sounds like Matt was missing social awareness too.

The problem comes when they make the statement that you will learn to defend yourself. I have no problem with any of them as long as they do not proclaim they teach self-defense. Unless they take it seriously train correctly and teach outcome based strategies and mental/psychological preparedness.

I've taken and been part of several self defense classes. What I've noticed is that most people really don't have any interest in learning self defense. The non-martial artist takes it as a one time thing to feel like they know something. Most martial artists take it to pick up a few more things that they'll never practice. Schools are just catering to their customers. So it's a two way street.

Also the term self defense is misleading. Someone may think that a few choke defenses are all they need, somebody else may think kickboxing is the ticket. Things that are part of my self defense training that aren't in your list are first aid, E&E and other areas that aren't directly connected to fighting. Same term different meanings.

"Unless they take it seriously train correctly and teach outcome based strategies and mental/psychological preparedness." Could you explain what you mean and give some examples of how you train these?

You can tell me all day long karate is to develop character, discipline, and fitness (not that that’s a bad thing), but this is such a cop out. Our violent criminals, and the drunks at the bar do not live by the dojo kun or some ancient Budo code. Pacifism will not help us when some thug wants to stomp your head in, neither will seeking perfection of character.

True that.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I take it that in the end Matt was right and the cowboy wasn't let into the place

Awareness should also be trained in a Karatedojo, if not something very basic is missing, Zanshin is what it is called in japanese

But the pre-emptive strike is whats foreign to Karate
BTW Karate ni Sentenashi ( no first strike in Karate) doesn't mean you can't be the first to hit

Maybe you have heard about the samurai and his 3 sons
To Show and test how skilled they were, he called them into the room one by one, but had the door rigged with a heavy jar
The first came in and got the jar on his head but before it hit the ground he cut it in two :"This is my youngest son, He has a lot to learn
Second came in the jar drops but before it can hit him he cuts it
This is my middle sone he is skilled but still has learn
The third, doesn't go through the door but picks up the jar and puts it don and then goes through the door
This is my oldest he is a master

Why do I tell this story because it illustrates that if your 6th sense tells you the other will attack you and you strike him, it is not considred first attack


As for teachers telling you to be carefull, it depends on the country you live in, in my country a MA is supposed to have the mental controll not to do thinks because they have potentially dangerous ( read damaging ) techniques
So it isn't weird that teachers tell you this, but that worked in the 70-80 maybe when society was far less violent than these days
At that time nobody had heard of the term "senseless violence"
People weren't kicked to dead by a group of 5 or more as.sholes

Now I would pay the fine or do the community service as a result of stricking first or kicking the crap out of an attacker

I know my adrenaline would be off the scale as soon as the cowboy would have turned to me, something Matt was probably lacking

[darrianation]

broken arrow writes:
quote
"Unless they take it seriously train correctly and teach outcome based strategies and mental/psychological preparedness." Could you explain what you mean and give some examples of how you train these?

I’m not nessasarily talking about the techniques. I am talking about intensity of training, Not Bsing people into thinking that after a session or two they can go out and defend themselves against anyone, at any time, under any circumstances. teaching with partners that do not cooperate. Not giving them fals confidence but building their confidence through hard training, Physical conditioning, and real world based scenarios.

Taking SD seriously to me means that you realize that it is a matter of life and death in the most literral sence. That there are limitations to teaching and learning SD and there needs to be an understanding of this and hounesty. You give your student’s the best training you can with the best workable techniques as possible so they can stand a chance out there in the mean streets. No sugur coating!

This cannot be done in a hodge podge way, the way it seems to be done in a lot of schools.

My instructor and the instructors over him they don’t really have a clue when it comes to self-defense. They can teach the shotokan SD corriculum but they don’t understand it beyond that. You can teach a monkey to the push the buttons but that doesn’t mean he knows what he is doing. Our studen’t and instructors should be taught beyond just pushing the buttons.

Now when you first teach a beginner a new technique sure you show it slow and practice at it with a cooperative partner, but as student gets better then he must begin doing things faster and faster with less coopperation. The student must prove to himself that the technique will work for real. This needs to be done by going full speed against a uncooperative partner, only limited of course with consideration to saftey.

The things the teacher needs to to know and understand to be able to effectivley teach effective SD is thes five things.

5 ingredients in order of importance.

1) Intelligence- Awareness. Using your head and using common sense. Recognizing a threat. Avoidance – Knowing de-escalation techniques, escape routes, when to fight, and win not to fight.
2) Mental toughness- Dealing with stress, adrenaline, anger, and fighting with determination and ferocity.
3) Physical conditioning.
4) Physical strength.
5) Skills- Punching, kicking, techniques (ma training), and etc.

You need to be creative and innovative to teach these. You also have to have a true understanding of what you or your students may be up against in a real situation, not just another button pusher. A button pusher can teach and learn the techniques but he won’t be able to teach some of these other things. There are other important stuff that needs to be taught too; like the law and consequences of your actions and dealing with being injured or dealing with seriously injuring or even killing some one else. These things can be very psychologically traumatic.

[darrianation]

Quote by broken arrow.
“Also the term self defense is misleading. Someone may think that a few choke defenses are all they need, somebody else may think kickboxing is the ticket. Things that are part of my self defense training that aren't in your list are first aid, E&E and other areas that aren't directly connected to fighting. Same term different meanings.”

There are other stuff I would do to, and you guys have given me good ideas as well.

First aid I never thought about teaching it as part of a SD corriculum, but that is a very good idea. I am a certified first aid instructor and CPR instructor. I think that would very valuble to teach. In fact I just taught a first aid class today to the teachers of the the school discrict’s adult education program. Next week I’ll do their CPR.

[darrianation]

Your both missing the point. The same thing can happen to ANY person from ANY art. Unless........

Unless you get into the pre confrontation issues like:-

awareness
avoidance
the fence
verbal de-escalation etc.

And unless you learn how and when to strike pre-emptively.

Matt was an ass for having a go at cowboy dude. No offence, I've done that kind of thing myself as a younger (and even more stupid) man. But Matt could have avoided the whole thing.

And, even if this cowboy picked on him for no reason whatsoever, Matt could have lined him up and taken him down by using the fence and the pre emptive strike. Just how long did the cowboy stand there? Just one "odd" question would have made him think "what the fluck is he on about?", and then that precise moment could have been used to put him in sleepy land.

Yes, I DO think that the vast majority of Karate is crap. But Matt could still have APPLIED it if he'd known about the pre confrontation issues.

And where did I get all my impressive knowledge ( )? I got it here www.geoffthompson.com

Look for videos such as "the Pavement Arena" series. Or books such as "Dead or Alive".


You guys need to look at this. Honestly. I only got into it in the last couple of years. It helps you actually APPLY your skills. It takes you to the next level.

Yes if you have seen other of posts in other threads you'll see I have made references to awareness, avoidence, etc. You are totally right these things need to be a part of any self-defense instruction.

I am a fan of Geoff Thomson too. I have the three second fighter, animal day, and watch my back.

[Thai Bri]

Making reference is not enough. No way. These things are your main weapons. If you get physical you have already f###ked up. In leaping about and punching things, we all lose sight of this fact.

[darrianation]

Making reference is not enough. No way. These things are your main weapons. If you get physical you have already f###ked up. In leaping about and punching things, we all lose sight of this fact.

Thai-
What I was trying to say (in which I didn't do a good job of, my bad) is you are right. Teaching awareness and avoidance needs to be emphasized from day one. The best defense one could have is not to be in a situation that they would have to defend themselves in the first place.

As you said going physical means you have already messed up.

Another D' story.
There are two SD instructors. Instructor one teaches his students sound practical techniques and to be ferocious fighters. His students are always in fights and of course they always win. So instructor one must be a good instructor.

Instructor two teaches his students sound practical techniques and to be ferocious fighters, but he also teaches his students awareness, threat assessment, verbal skills and escape. His students are never in fights. So who is the better instructor?

I say instructor two. Sooner or later one or more of instructor one's students will get thrown in prison, seriously injured, or even killed. Instructor one might even be charged or sued. I think instructor one does a disservice to himself and his students.

Instructor two's students are safer. Being and staying safe is what self-defense should be all about.

[kengar]

If you get physical you have already f###ked up.

I see this many places, and I think it is plain wrong. You can have all the awareness, and de-escalation you want, but if a criminal is hell bent on harming your how can you feel you fu(k)d up. I feel you fu(k)d up if you have never taken the safety of your family or yourself seriouly.



ken

[HAKIM82]

What's wrong with karate? Nothing,What's wrong with MA's? Is the real question!

Hello to you all:

I am a Ju jitsu man in NYC ( VEE ARNIS JITSU) and I must say that is a great thread. All of you gentlemen have made fine points as to what is the problem in Martial Arts not just Karate.

I think there are many great Karate stylist out there that would lay many a men in the morgue or in the hospital but because some can't that does not mean that karate as a whole is not effective. On the other hand there are also many Ju Jitsu guys be it or Brazillian, eclectic or japanese that may get mopped up by the street thug and the same goes for every other style under the sun.

I was recently in London and I picked up an issue of Combat and MA Illustrated, WOW! I thought New York had there fair share of MA schools in the directory but England takes the cake....anyway I was reading about one of the Gracies who was in Spain at a Seminar and some guy challenged him and it got ugly and he may have got the worst of it so he came to the challengers place of business for a return match and in the article he is reported to state that " he came to this guys's job to even up the score because he was not ready the first time around"

I laughed because that statement if true is "what's wrong with the martial arts". When it gets down and dirty there is no getting ready -you do or you get done.

In America I believe that MA's is really about commercialism. It is Pepsi Vs Coke, Snapple Vs Nestley Ice Tea, etc. It not about what you really need to survive - plain water.

We are into fads what ever latest action star is doing Jimmey Cagney did judo -people flocked to Judo, Sean Connery did karate-Karate became popular, Bruce came along -Kung fu schools thrived , etc, etc, and now ultimate fighting -BJJ is selling like hot cakes. It is the commercialism that has clouded the issue. My style is better than your stye crap. Each system should concentrate on being modern as in it's effectiveness within it's own traditional framework. Each style must evolve to fight the modern man whether he is a 5' Aisian or a 6'5 heavily muscled white or black man from London or Los Angeles and everyone in between. Every style has it's weak points. The question is can you exploit those those weak points? You! Not your superman grandmaster 10th degree shihan professor guro commando training founder of your unbeatable system. No one man or system is unbeatable it just boils down to that day, hour, minute, and the other man in front of you. Who hits hardest and first will more than likely win anyway, My instructor says he teaches us self -offense not self- defense

In reality not many people can train to be total 24 hour walking commandos unless that is there job, if you are an accountant ,etc, and you are studying a MA ( pick one out of the hat) there is a limit as to how realistic your training can get before your boss asks you where are your teeth and why are you limping to our three o'clock meeting. So whatever you study you must have the right training mindset to be able to handle real world situations to the best of your individual ability and not to be the sole litmus test as the effectiveness of an entire system. In reality You have to choose a system or systems that you pick the most effective techniques for your body type and mental abilities.

So as to add my five cents it does not matter what you study, if you are not mentally ready to be tested by some thug who has no problem killing you in front of your wife and children or the village priest at the drop of a hat- You are going to die. Plain and simple! If you can not respond to his attack with greater savagery in the first 10 seconds most situations are settled -you are through anyway

So rule number # 1 Leave people the hell alone .

#2 Run or back away and play it safe if you have the out,

#3 if you have no out and it's on you better defend yourself with a - my life or his life mentality

#4 weapons first and bare hands second

#5 it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by six if rules # 1 and 2 did not work for you.