ninjitsu

[darrianation]

Dar,

It doesn't seem like you're getting the point of all the variations. They have been brought about in order to respond to the number of "what if's" that have arisen from Jcmack's origonal explanation of the basic form of the technique. We both know that techniques rarely work as scripted and need to be altered given the situation.

The base technique is actually not unlike the gunting that you would find in arnis, in theory. You are right in saying that the idea is to damage the arm, giving you anywhere from 1 - 10 seconds of time where the attacker's arm will be immobile. There is a nerve line that runs the length of the arm and, if practiced to perfection, it is possible that one could knock out an attacker by using this technique. When correct application of this technique occurs, chi is sent back up the nerve line, directly to the brain, which can shut down(although this is usually accomplished soley by the best masters and is not the central focus of the technique. I have never done this and don't expect to.) Other effects can be seeing the arm drop and pin to the attacker's body in a lifeless state. Some people who have a higher pain tolerance will require to be hit in several different places in order for the pain to register. This is how you would deal with your "Bubba."

The key to understand when pondering this technique is that ninjitsu stylists are not head hunters. So many people go for the face when fighting that it has become cliche' and most "Bubbas" are immune to shots to the face. The ninjitsu stylist practices how to effectively attack other areas around the body that can be exploited easily with minimal training. These locations are often left out of other arts and street fighters. Some of these include, but are not limited to: leg attacks, ankles, feet, back, and of course the arms.

The idea behind striking these areas is to be able to seperate a limb from his body so that it can be manipulated. If you can control any of the attacker's 5 points of balance (head, 2 arms, 2 legs) you can control his body. When attacking a limb, such as the arm, repeated strikes to appropriately planned locations will result in that limb becoming like puddy and inflicting pain on the attacker as if you were attacking his or her actual visage or trunk. Just as a martial artist learns how to use proper techniques against certain parts of the body, so the ninjitsu stylist learns the proper techniques to use against the limbs.

For example, kenpo stylists have something like 24 poison strikes. One of which is a knife hand to the temple. When you analyze the technique, you see that the side of the hand represents a relatively narrow striking surface area, enabling it to collapse the bones protecting the outside of the eye socket and would cause a break in that region. Furthermore, the pressure point beneath the surface of the temples leads directly to the brain and affects the functions of the nervous system. This point is labeled a "dummy point." If you strike an attacker in the temple, but not hard enough to break that area, you will cause him to stumble and probably fall to his knees, if not to the ground. Those who have been struck in this manner often will have a delayed reaction and don't realize the reaction they have until they can shake off the strike. I.e, they will keep fighting from their knees until they realize where they are.

These points of attack exist on the limbs and throughout the remainder of the body. The same chi lines that run through the temples and other points on the skull also exist all over the body and can be invoked to perform the same response. The point on the inside of the arm is a "pain point" and if struck would cause the person to recoil in pain as if they had burned their hand on an oven. On the face, other "pain points" would be the point beneath the piltrum of the nose and the upper corners of the forehead.

Study of these points throughout the body, such as dummy points and pain points will open a new range of targets that do not limit the martial artist to more traditional zones. Any dim mak book can confirm my information about the effect of striking the pressure points. Furthermore, exploitation of these locations often has a suprising effect on the attacker, furthering the offset of mindset and balance created by the application of the technique.

-Hikage

Overall fair enough, but I am not missing the point I just don’t agree with the point, fully anyway.

I think we both agree (at least at a basic level) That techniques that rely on exact timing, precise targeting, and flawless execution are less desirable than ones that don’t have to be so neat and tidy.

I also disagree that finesse techniques while being harder to accomplish will be any more effective against Bubba then you’re so called head hunting. What you really need is a baseball bat, a heavy chair, or a .44 Magnum, anything less will probably mean a trip to the hospital or morgue. The way to defeat him empty handed is to be meaner, nastier, and go for his eyes, throat, groin, and hit him as many times as you, can, for as long as you can. But even then there are no guarantees.

I agree here about the off balancing your opponent, but again I disagree on how. I think that having the aim of going after the arm complicates your task. Great in theory but the reality is you don’t want to complicate things anymore than you have too. Now if it happens naturally, like if he grabs onto you leaving his arm vulnerable then fine, but I’d rather palm strike him, head but, or stick my thumbs in his eyes. Offset his balance by movement making him re-adjust to you, or by shocking/shredding can also be a great way to off balancing him without resorting to fine motor techniques.

And the Kenpo thing I studied it for about 2 ½ years. I think pressure point fighting has some merit, but again it won't work well cosistantly enough when someone is lowering the shoulder closing like a banchee, and throwing a barrage of punches at you.

[jcmack]

I started out explaining a technique. It is just that, a technique. I made no magical claims about it except that it was effective and repeatable. Any technique can be replaced by another if the situation allows it. There is no reason why you couldn't use a knife edge or whatever else you want to use. The point with techniques is to be well rounded enough not to be limited to one particular technique. So maybe I would like to use a ura shuto(knife edge from opposite shoulder), but I could also use the technique I described or a thousand others I could come up with at the moment.

Now, Hikage and I are having to delve into the principles of fighting with you to explain all the "what if" scenarios you are coming up with. How can you grasp or understand deep principles of fighting when you can't grasp a single simple technique. We are running in circles with you. I think it is time to accept the fact that you can't understand this. You really need someone to show it to you.

[darrianation]

I started out explaining a technique. It is just that, a technique. I made no magical claims about it except that it was effective and repeatable. Any technique can be replaced by another if the situation allows it. There is no reason why you couldn't use a knife edge or whatever else you want to use. The point with techniques is to be well rounded enough not to be limited to one particular technique. So maybe I would like to use a ura shuto(knife edge from opposite shoulder), but I could also use the technique I described or a thousand others I could come up with at the moment.

Now, Hikage and I are having to delve into the principles of fighting with you to explain all the "what if" scenarios you are coming up with. How can you grasp or understand deep principles of fighting when you can't grasp a single simple technique. We are running in circles with you. I think it is time to accept the fact that you can't understand this. You really need someone to show it to you.

I think it's more then just about the technique, it's about overall effectiveness, for average individuals with average physical attributes. We are talking a lot of theory, but we have to remember functional effectiveness under stress, fear, eacitement, and adrenaline.

And I like the What ifs.

[jcmack]

There are so many factors involved when you talk about functional techniques. If you have a full understanding of balance and, and of the technique you are attempting, and of the fight itself, then any solid technique that isn't too far fetched will work. There is a time and a place for every techique. Fighting isn't about technique anyway. At least not only the techniques you use.

[Hikage]

I think it's more then just about the technique, it's about overall effectiveness, for average individuals with average physical attributes. We are talking a lot of theory, but we have to remember functional effectiveness under stress, fear, eacitement, and adrenaline.

And I like the What ifs.

Dar,

I'm with you, the "what if's" are a good thing, but I believe they have a time and a place. When teaching a "basic technique" it's not generally good idea to let beginner run around asking "What if? What if? What if?" What you end up with is a technique that looks nothing like the origonal.

How many Bubbas have you run in to? It been my experience, being 5'8 170 lbs, that a ...

palm strike, head but, or stick my thumbs in his eyes.

doesn't work. I've encountered several "Bubbas." My most recent Bubbas were a number of men who were working as bouncers and body guards for "Buddha Brothers" who asked us to come and teach them some schtuff. These Bubbas were rather large indivuduals with varying levels of experience and intelligence. One of these guys could lay on his back and put his hands above his head on the floor. A guy weighing about the same as myself stepped onto his hands. "Bubba" was able to lift him from the floor. Granted it was only momentary because he soon fell off, but he was certainly off the floor a few inches. These are the kinds of individuals I was dealing with.

What you described simply will not work, excepting perhaps a momentary opening from the thumb to the eyes. A small guy such as myself cannot expect to work the mass of his body. I need to be able to seperate that limb from his body and work him with multiple strikes from there. I've tried both ways and for me, if I stand up and attack his center mass, I die. When we work these men, they are coming with all they have. Similar to police officers, these gentlemen need to be shown that the techniques work and we had to actually apply what we were doing. They take several repeated shots affecting their balance and I've found that the most effective shots are directed to the less-commonly targeted regions. These regions are less protected by their mass and still have a serious effect on them.

On a man this size, I'm not referring to applying only "gunting." Let me give you a sample technique. Bear in mind, as with any technique, this is a freeze-dried technique. Real application would require minute variations on the basis of the situation:

1. Bubba punches with a straight right punch.
2. Side step, mirror and drop a hammer left fist onto the high point of the forearm.
3. Using the same left fist and in the same motion, turn the hammer fist sideways and lead into his bicep as his forearm drops like a stone skipping in water, causing his arm to recoil exposing step 4.
4. Right hand slams a fist into the area between the shoulder and the clavical.
5. At this point, his arm has dropped slightly and his body has been turned to the outside.
6. Drop the bone in the left forearm on to his same bone in the right arm and sweep his arm out so the elbow is straight out, opening a space.
7. Right fist comes down on the back of the tricep, which is now exposed as the left hand braces
8. Right hand now holds as the left slams into the side of the bicep (where the bone is exposed.
9. Right leg kicks Bubba’s right knee, studdering his balance.
10. left hand scoops bubba’s arm and passes arm over head to right shoulder, exposing his elbow.
11. As you duck under the arm, right hand slaps Bubba on the stripes of his peck, which could cause him to cough, pulling hand through and back fist his ribs on the way back out.
12. Bring both hands down on the top of the elbow breaking it and causing Bubba to bend over.
13. Many Bubbas can withstand a broken bone, so the fight is not yet over.
14. Hook the crook of his arm with left hand and slide your body so you are in front of his bent body.
15. Strike the top – back of his neck with the webbing between your index and thumb (dummy point) and drive his head to the pavement …
16. at the same, pull your left arm in front of you, still hooked onto his arm. This causes him to flip over and drop your body weight.
17. Drop your knee on the side of his face.
18. Finish him how you prefer. Wrist lock, arm lock, more strikes, roll away, etc.

Bear in mind, this sort of technique, especially the barrage of punches at the beginning is the sort of thing which we drill repeatedly in class. It sounds like a lot, but after some practice, it becomes reflexive – hence the rationalization behind drills. The whole technique takes less than 3 seconds.

Furthermore, there are aspects on which I did not elaborate. I.e., What would happen if he were to throw the other punch? There are a number of ways you could attack that. You could block, strike, duck, etc. the incoming punch. You could completely switch and them perform the same technique on the other side. I don’t really worry about that hand because I’m so far to the outside and I have control of his one arm. I’ll feel him before I see it. In order for him to strike you, he has to turn his entire mass. Furthermore, his right arm must go short in order for his left arm to go long. There are any number of ways to stop this.

I know what you are going to say regarding this technique and honestly I really don’t care. I’ve used it and similar techniques with success against my own “Bubbas.”

Dar, you need to understand that what might work for you, probably being at least medium-sized or larger, will not work for a smaller man such as myself. I need to work to the outside. I need to be able to dissect a small part of his body. I’ve been doing it long enough to know it works.

Oh yeah, and the reason why “Buddha Brothers” came to us? Because they went to the more ‘common schools’ in the area. They attacked these martial artists the same way they came at us and walked through them as if they were nothing. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. It doesn’t work.

I’m not sure how to word this question so I’ll ask it and then qualify it. “How many Bubbas have you worked and what is your success rate?” I don’t mean to imply that you have not run into any; you’ve been in this too long not to have encountered them.

-Hikage

[jcmack]

I agree with you for the most part Hikage. It is my experience that to take away a Bubba's balance, you take away his strength. Then his extra weight works against him as he tries to rebalance himself. This is how I aproach a fight against a Bubba anyway. I have a friend here in Memphis who has recently set the world amatuer powerlifting record for the squat. He goes to the University of Memphis with me and can squat over 860lbs. He weighs over 320lbs easy. He is very easy to take down from a balance standpoint.

[darrianation]

Dar,

I'm with you, the "what if's" are a good thing, but I believe they have a time and a place. When teaching a "basic technique" it's not generally good idea to let beginner run around asking "What if? What if? What if?" What you end up with is a technique that looks nothing like the origonal.

How many Bubbas have you run in to? It been my experience, being 5'8 170 lbs, that a ...
doesn't work. I've encountered several "Bubbas." My most recent Bubbas were a number of men who were working as bouncers and body guards for "Buddha Brothers" who asked us to come and teach them some schtuff. These Bubbas were rather large indivuduals with varying levels of experience and intelligence. One of these guys could lay on his back and put his hands above his head on the floor. A guy weighing about the same as myself stepped onto his hands. "Bubba" was able to lift him from the floor. Granted it was only momentary because he soon fell off, but he was certainly off the floor a few inches. These are the kinds of individuals I was dealing with.

What you described simply will not work, excepting perhaps a momentary opening from the thumb to the eyes. A small guy such as myself cannot expect to work the mass of his body. I need to be able to seperate that limb from his body and work him with multiple strikes from there. I've tried both ways and for me, if I stand up and attack his center mass, I die. When we work these men, they are coming with all they have. Similar to police officers, these gentlemen need to be shown that the techniques work and we had to actually apply what we were doing. They take several repeated shots affecting their balance and I've found that the most effective shots are directed to the less-commonly targeted regions. These regions are less protected by their mass and still have a serious effect on them.

On a man this size, I'm not referring to applying only "gunting." Let me give you a sample technique. Bear in mind, as with any technique, this is a freeze-dried technique. Real application would require minute variations on the basis of the situation:

1. Bubba punches with a straight right punch.
2. Side step, mirror and drop a hammer left fist onto the high point of the forearm.
3. Using the same left fist and in the same motion, turn the hammer fist sideways and lead into his bicep as his forearm drops like a stone skipping in water, causing his arm to recoil exposing step 4.
4. Right hand slams a fist into the area between the shoulder and the clavical.
5. At this point, his arm has dropped slightly and his body has been turned to the outside.
6. Drop the bone in the left forearm on to his same bone in the right arm and sweep his arm out so the elbow is straight out, opening a space.
7. Right fist comes down on the back of the tricep, which is now exposed as the left hand braces
8. Right hand now holds as the left slams into the side of the bicep (where the bone is exposed.
9. Right leg kicks Bubba’s right knee, studdering his balance.
10. left hand scoops bubba’s arm and passes arm over head to right shoulder, exposing his elbow.
11. As you duck under the arm, right hand slaps Bubba on the stripes of his peck, which could cause him to cough, pulling hand through and back fist his ribs on the way back out.
12. Bring both hands down on the top of the elbow breaking it and causing Bubba to bend over.
13. Many Bubbas can withstand a broken bone, so the fight is not yet over.
14. Hook the crook of his arm with left hand and slide your body so you are in front of his bent body.
15. Strike the top – back of his neck with the webbing between your index and thumb (dummy point) and drive his head to the pavement …
16. at the same, pull your left arm in front of you, still hooked onto his arm. This causes him to flip over and drop your body weight.
17. Drop your knee on the side of his face.
18. Finish him how you prefer. Wrist lock, arm lock, more strikes, roll away, etc.

Bear in mind, this sort of technique, especially the barrage of punches at the beginning is the sort of thing which we drill repeatedly in class. It sounds like a lot, but after some practice, it becomes reflexive – hence the rationalization behind drills. The whole technique takes less than 3 seconds.

Furthermore, there are aspects on which I did not elaborate. I.e., What would happen if he were to throw the other punch? There are a number of ways you could attack that. You could block, strike, duck, etc. the incoming punch. You could completely switch and them perform the same technique on the other side. I don’t really worry about that hand because I’m so far to the outside and I have control of his one arm. I’ll feel him before I see it. In order for him to strike you, he has to turn his entire mass. Furthermore, his right arm must go short in order for his left arm to go long. There are any number of ways to stop this.

I know what you are going to say regarding this technique and honestly I really don’t care. I’ve used it and similar techniques with success against my own “Bubbas.”

Dar, you need to understand that what might work for you, probably being at least medium-sized or larger, will not work for a smaller man such as myself. I need to work to the outside. I need to be able to dissect a small part of his body. I’ve been doing it long enough to know it works.

Oh yeah, and the reason why “Buddha Brothers” came to us? Because they went to the more ‘common schools’ in the area. They attacked these martial artists the same way they came at us and walked through them as if they were nothing. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. It doesn’t work.

I’m not sure how to word this question so I’ll ask it and then qualify it. “How many Bubbas have you worked and what is your success rate?” I don’t mean to imply that you have not run into any; you’ve been in this too long not to have encountered them.

-Hikage

I’ll answer the Bubba question real quick then I’ll get back to you on the other stuff.

Unfortunately I have been attacked by the so called Bubba on a few occasions, Twice on a one on one, both with weapons, and as a part of a multiple attackers also with weapons.

The Bubba #1, 6’3-4” and 260lbs of pure muscle and testosterone He was armed with a long wooden dowel like what you would hang your clothes on in a closet. I defeated him with eye gouges, elbows, and clinch knees. However I received some minor injuries as well.

Bubba #2 Approx 6’2-3’ 250lbs again he was also very aggressive he hit me with a beer bottle, and a rock. I defeated him by biting his eye and ramming his head into a metal pipe by pushing him backwards into it. Again I received some minor injuries.

Both Bubbas had criminal records, and Bubba #1 was extensive including aggrivated assault , assault, and other stuff.

The next one was against five guys; one of them was as big as a NFL lineman. I kept on my feet despite several attempted takedowns/tackles and being stabbed twice, And a skull fracture from a metal garbage can. A bystander stopped his car and pulled a gun on them, that’s the only reason I am still alive. The stabs were to non-vital areas arm and upper thigh and were defensive wounds.

I have also been robbed at gunpoint! I cooperated and I wasn’t hurt. I have also been involved in a few other non-criminal altercations like bars, parties, restraining patients (I am a paramedic), working security (for rock concerts/sporting events) and stuff like that.

I am a professional bodyguard (personal and corporate) but besides the occasional push I have not been involved in any violent situations while on the job. I have also been in firefights (gun battles) while in the military, and as a civilian I have drawn my concealed weapon twice in which I didn’t have to shoot because the bad guys decided to make nice and cooperated.

So, I would say I have some real world experience.

I have also been doing martial arts for 27 years and 18 of those years were in traditional martial arts.

[darrianation]

Okay I am back I'll try to give you more of my thoughts.

When you say center mass, you mean the torso, earlier you said that Ninjitsu does not head hunt, this sounds like a stylized difference and one I don’t particularly agree is the best solution. I do agree that simple jabs and crosses to Bubba’s head will not be the key, but agressive offense is.

Yes, this is a nifty technique, and don’t get me wrong I think its cool, but then again you know he’s throwing the right punch.

I had a friend with 20 years experience in Aikido and ran the aikido school here. He would always refuse to spar me because he kept saying it was to dangerous that he might break my arm. So, one day he finally got tired of me asking to spar and agreed that I could throw a punch and he would counter (this was his stipulation not mine) Well, I did to him what I always do to people in this situation, I feigned the punch and shot in for a double leg takedown, it worked like a charm. I have no doubt he could of countered my punch and put me on the ground if I did what he expected, but I did the unexpected and instead I had him down.

You cannot reason the effectiveness of any technique based on a modal of predictability. Also, the same level of fear, stress, anxiety, and the adrenal response is not present in the dojo environment. Things that often work well in the dojo, may not work so well when the real shit hits the fan.

I’m not saying side stepping and turning one’s own momentum against him won’t work because this is a solid strategy to use and very user friendly. I am agreeing that offsetting your attacker is key, but I am also saying there are other ways to do this other than attacking his upper extremities. I use the shock or shred method, I also use stepping in and out at angles. I think footwork is important when off setting your opponents balance. Keep moving at all times.

In training I have fought some big guys too. lost and won some. But don’t let us forget that avoidance is always best. Once a guy pulled a knife on me and I ran, and thank god I was faster. I am not afraid to admit that.

Hikage, I respect your views and you knowledge, but I guess we just have to agree to disagree, at least on some of this stuff.

[Hikage]

Okay I am back I'll try to give you more of my thoughts.

When you say center mass, you mean the torso, earlier you said that Ninjitsu does not head hunt, this sounds like a stylized difference and one I don’t particularly agree is the best solution. I do agree that simple jabs and crosses to Bubba’s head will not be the key, but agressive offense is.

Hikage, I respect your views and you knowledge, but I guess we just have to agree to disagree, at least on some of this stuff.

I think that's where we're going to have to leave it. I too trust that you know what you're doing and judging by your stories trust that you can defend yourself on a pretty good level. If it works for you, great. I'm glad that we at least understand where each other is coming from.

-Hikage

[osopardo]

Wait a minnit! Are you 2 bozos acting like gentlemen!!???!!!

We'll have none o' that aroun' heah!

[jcmack]

Now that's what I like to see.

[julian01]

omg
the shear closed narrow minded ,childish attituted shown here is quite scary.
ninjutsu works ,there is no augment.sheesh ninjutsu is not some sport or keep fit system.
it was developed(along with its blocks) IN THE FIELD/BATTLEFIELD..if it didnt work it would not have be passed on..because most probable they would have been killed IN THE FIELD..if it didnt work it was not used..this stuff has been tested.
how arrogant is it to turn your nose up at all that history? because its something that you cant understand in your little world of rules. some of you are blinded and have created your own cages,you have done that with your own egos.
damn now i feel silly for being dragged into this thread, its so damn predictable..just like alot of punches

[Hikage]

omg
the shear closed narrow minded ,childish attituted shown here is quite scary.
ninjutsu works ,there is no augment.sheesh ninjutsu is not some sport or keep fit system.
it was developed(along with its blocks) IN THE FIELD/BATTLEFIELD..if it didnt work it would not have be passed on..because most probable they would have been killed IN THE FIELD..if it didnt work it was not used..this stuff has been tested.
how arrogant is it to turn your nose up at all that history? because its something that you cant understand in your little world of rules. some of you are blinded and have created your own cages,you have done that with your own egos.
damn now i feel silly for being dragged into this thread, its so damn predictable..just like alot of punches

Awww, man. We actually kind of came to an agreement here. The peace was nice while it lasted. (welcome aboard, it's nice to have another ninjitsu stylist on the board here.)

-Hikage

[julian01]

people had the same bone and muscle centuries ago?and where life and death were concerned, used thier bodys in every way possible.ok some parts of ninjutsu today are more relevant than others(ie siting sword defenses, not that useful)
but the basic taijutsu is as relevant as long as humans have arms and legs.
as for fancy stuff being added for show,that goes against the basic principles.
people who do that no longer have the budo heart and have moved away from real ninjutsu.
again dont be fooled into think this is a dead art,there are meny special forces around the world who have studied in it
ps.sorry if i came across a bit arrogant in that first post(and this one lol)
ill not post again

[Ninpo Ikan]

Here's an honest answer for you: I boxed for many years before I became interested in the martial arts, and currently am devoting myself full-time to Bujinkan Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is an excellent supplement to your boxing skills, but I'm not going to say it's the only one. Judo, jujitsu, BJJ, wrestling, all are good supplements to one who is mostly a puncher. The punching will be a lot different from what you're used to, but soon you can get to the point where you'll be hitting just as hard if not harder. The weapons training will also be of a huge benefit to you. These are just my opinions, though, I'm sure any other martial art with kicking and grappling would benefit you just as well.