Any clips of Ninjistu fighter?

[koto_ryu]

I think I will Maybe the next time I'm at Wendy's you can hook me up with some fries to say congratulations.

[chris davis 200]

he he he - just re-read my post!

NOTE TO SELF ;- Never try to either spell or get your point accross after coming back from the pub!!

[chris davis 200]

OK - a more coherent response ! (maybe!)

And it's obvious you didn't cover too much during your few Bujinkan lessons, as if you follow the list of teachers from the different ryus back throughout history, you will see that it does in fact go within the range of approximately 1500 years. If they have 33 previous grandmasters and one right now for 34, thats a heckuva lot of years you're talking about, much more than 1000.

Ok – but this is more based on opinion than reality – the line of succession of the oldest Koryu School in Japan currently is on its 20th Soke (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Bujutsu) It seems almost inconceivable that the Soke Tradition in Bujinkan stretches back nearly a third as far again! Especially when the use of the term Soke only really appeared after the tokugawa shogunate came into power. (1600’s)

And if we look at the lineage of the arts we see that you kind of have things a little wrong!!

Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu - This school was organized by Takagi Oriemon Shigenobu in the beginning of 1600 (not 1500 years ago)

Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu - This school is believed to have roots in China and is also said to be founded in the 12th century (not 1500 years ago)but no documented evidence exists or has been presented to support this date. Hatsumi claims to be the 26th Soke of this style in his lineage – nearly all other Kukishin Ryu Lineages are around the 19th Soke mark.

Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu – This school is believed to have been founded in the mid 12th century by Genpachiro Temeyoshi – as with many lineages this traces back through some very very prominent Bushi – the likelihood that these samurai were Shinden Fu Ryu Soke is very unlikely as they also seem to be soke of many other lineages also. And seeing as the Soke system was not in place at the time of the arts conception they were most definitely not referred to as soke.

Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu - Sakagami Taro Kunishige organized the ryu and served as head from 1532 to 1555 (not 1500 years ago) . Some say that the first Soke was Tozawa Hakuunsai, who formulated the system in around 1156 (not 1500 years ago – notice a theme?) but this again is unsubstantiated.

That’ll do for now…..

Now lets actually take a look at what Soke Means? And when it came into practice or use.

Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.
Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.
Osano Jun (187-192) argues that the first martial art in Japan to adopt a true soke system was the Kodokan School of judo. Osano could be right. The Kodokan set the standards not just for members within one training hall in one location, but for all participants in judo throughout the nation. The Kodokan defined the art; it controlled licensing and instruction; and it established branch schools with instructors who maintained permanent affiliation with the headquarters. If the Kodokan does not recognize something as being "judo," then it is not judo. Therefore, there is no such thing as a new style of judo. All of these elements constitute essential characteristics of traditional soke organizations in Tokugawa-period Japan. In actual practice, however, no one ever refers to the Kodokan, or its current head, as the soke of judo.9 The term seems out of place with judo's emphasis on modernity. Having analyzing the term soke in this way, Osano also criticizes the present-day use of the soke label by some Japanese teachers who represent traditional martial art lineages (i.e., koryu). Osano asserts that such usage not only is incorrect but also reveals an ignorance of traditional Japanese culture.
Osano's strict historical understanding is probably too strict. He overlooks the legal and social changes in the status of soke that occurred after 1868. After Japan began to modernize, social critics denounced soke organizations as a disagreeable legacy of a feudal system based on hereditary privilege, which stifled innovation and restricted knowledge for the financial benefit of undeserving family heads who no longer possessed the skills of their ancestors (Nishiyama 1982c, 263-273). Soke organizations saw their networks of branch instructors wither as interest in traditional arts declined and former students broke away to found rival schools.10 Soon many traditional soke disappeared, especially in arts based on direct competition among participants such as Japanese chess (shogi) and in less well-known forms of dance and song. As more and more of these intangible cultural legacies disappeared, modern Japanese gradually developed a new appreciation for the soke families who had managed to preserve their own family traditions and teach them to new generations. Without the determination and persistence of the heirs of these families, direct knowledge of many traditional Japanese arts would have been lost.
Today one could argue that the historical differences between the heirs of Tokugawa-period family lineages which operated as commercial guilds (with the natori system) and the heirs of localized teaching lineages such as those associated with martial traditions are less significant than their modern similarities. In both cases the current successors remain the only legitimate sources for traditional forms of instruction in the arts of that lineage. In both cases the current successors have assumed responsibility for preserving the historical texts, special tools, unique skills, and specific lore that have been handed down within their own particular lineage. In both cases the current successors distinguish their traditional teachings from newly founded rivals by pointing out how their teachings remain faithful to the goals and forms taught by previous generations. Based on these similarities, many modern writers use the terms iemoto or soke as designations for the legitimate heir to any established main lineage. Used in reference to present-day representatives of traditional martial art lineages, therefore, the soke label properly denotes their roles as successors to and preservers of a particular historical and cultural legacy. It should not be interpreted as implying identification with a commercial network (as criticized by Osano) nor as being equivalent to "grandmaster" or "founder" (as mistakenly assumed by casual observers), and might best be translated simply as "head" or "headmaster."
Consider, for example, the case of Kashima-Shinryu (see Friday, Legacies of the Sword). In his books and articles, Seki Humitake, the current head of and nineteenth-generation successor to the Kashima- Shinryu lineage, uses the label soke as a designation for the Kunii family. He uses this term as a way of honoring the role the Kunii family played in preserving Kashima-Shinryu traditions. Down to the time of Seki's teacher, Kunii Zen'ya (1894-1966), Kashima-Shinryu forms of martial lore had been passed down consanguineously within the Kunii family from father to son from one generation to the next. Seki's modern use of the label soke simply acknowledges that legacy.11 In the writings of Kunii Zen'ya and in the traditional scrolls preserved within the Kunii family, however, the word soke cannot be found. Kunii Zen'ya never referred to himself or to his family as the soke of Kashima-Shinryu. He simply signed his name. In writing out copies of his family's old scrolls (these copies would be handed out as diplomas), though, he usually would add the words "Kunii-ke soden" before the title of each scroll. For example, if he copied an old scroll titled "Kenjutsu mokuroku" he would give it the title "Kunii-ke soden kenjutsu mokuroku." In this example, the original title simply means "fencing curriculum" while the longer version means "the fencing curriculum transmitted within the Kunii family." Used to represent this sense of "transmitted within a family," the term soke seems perfectly reasonable. It merely implies that the lore associated with this curriculum was taught exclusively within the Kunii familial lineage.
In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize

So Soke was generally not in use prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate. Prior to the 1600’s.

It also refers to the Family Head of a tradition – not the grandmaster or master of a tradition necessarily.

Katori Shinto Ryu’s Soke does not even practice the art if I remember correctly – he designates a headmaster to teach.

This is not to say that Masaki Hatsumi’s teachings do not have merit – he is a skilled Budo Master – but your assessment of the Bujinkan Lineages is quite off the mark.

And it's obvious you didn't cover too much during your few Bujinkan lessons

It was more than a few. I hold a high Kyu Rank.

Anyways! Here I will leave it.

Chris

[koto_ryu]

Once I can actually dig up my Ninjutsu History and Traditions book (it's somewhere in this huge box filled with martial arts books, I like collecting them and checking out the different styles), I'll put up the proper lineage of the arts and what ranking he holds on each. And just because he's Soke now doesn't mean they called them all that back in the day, similar to why would someone back then call themselves the Grandmaster of Flying Turtle Kung Fu? Shihan van Donk has a good bit of info on the subject, and being on my way to become an instructor someday, I think I probably know what I'm talking about. You may have been taught differently though, which I'm not denying, but some instructors don't concentrate as much on history as others. I've done more homework for my ninjutsu class lately than many of my college courses (The fries bit was not for you anyways, it was for "May I take your order?" jubaji )

[chris davis 200]

thanks i would dbe interested in your account of the individual Ryuha history.

Regards
Chris

[jubaji]

I think I will Maybe the next time I'm at Wendy's you can hook me up with some fries to say congratulations.

Sure thing, 'doc'

[jubaji]

Pre-soke major?

being on my way to become an instructor someday, I think I probably know what I'm talking about.

hahahaahhaaahaha Wow. You're 'planning' to do alot, aren't you doctor?

[koto_ryu]

hahahaahhaaahaha Wow. You're 'planning' to do alot, aren't you doctor?

Sorry, jubaji, not all of us want to work at Wendy's and spend our times on different forums being a troll

[jubaji]

freshman master

Sorry, jubaji, not all of us want to work at Wendy's and spend our times on different forums being a troll

Well, we can't all live up to your awesome imagination.

[Hikage]

Once I can actually dig up my Ninjutsu History and Traditions book (it's somewhere in this huge box filled with martial arts books, I like collecting them and checking out the different styles), I'll put up the proper lineage of the arts and what ranking he holds on each.

Put down the book and back away from the keyboard. No one care the proper lineage of a bunch of dead guys.

Have you ever seen what happens when you give a kid a cardboard box and a pair of scissors? Mindless destruction, that's right. Koto lays out a statement, which for this metaphor we'll call the box. Then others come along and destroy this box for whatever reason.

To be honest, I don't really care about the lineage junk that koto's posting. The box has just been so destroyed that it's impossible to understand what this thread is really about. Someone mind bottom lining this for me??

Thanks

-Hikage

[Thai Bri]

Ninjitsu is horse shit - that is the bottom line.

[koto_ryu]

Chris,

The oldest school in the Bujinkan is the Gyokku Ryu, which was founded in 600 A.D. by Cho Gyokko, a Chinese-Japanese female martial artist who had a blending of kung fu styles as well as nihon-ryu jujitsu. The Gyokko Ryu is where much of the kihon happo came from, the others are anywhere from 1000 A.D. to 1600 A.D.

[koto_ryu]

Ninjitsu is horse shit - that is the bottom line.

And as we all know, we should all bow down to the infinite wisdom from Thai Bri and take it seriously For he is a true Kung Fool master.

[Hikage]

...........ok. another one of those threads. Gotcha.

-Hikage

[koto_ryu]

To be honest, I don't really care about the lineage junk that koto's posting. -Hikage

Did you ask for it? No. Then I don't care if you read it or not.