The Bow

[LoneWolf1]

Just because it might not seem practical doesn't mean it didn't exist, just look at weapons like the flamberge or some of the swords the kage ryu use. Also if weapons like this did exist they probably wouldn't be around now since less than 1% of weapons/ artifacts that were around then are not today. Even if they found a piece of some such bow they most likely wouldn't be able to to tell you how much the pull weight was. I'm not saying this was the norm only that it could have been used.

[MatthewAlphonso]

A flamberge was believed to have been useful back then, otherwise it would not have been used.

A 200 lb bow could not have been used. Just think about it, pulling a bow like that, repeatedly, could not be done. It would simply tear your muscles and tendons apart. It would also be unpractical, imagine what would happen if your string popped, that string flying and hitting you in the face, lacerating your arms, etc. Or if the bow snapped, not a pretty picture. You still have not presented any scientific evidence, the burden of proof rests upon you. Present some evidence, other than simple myth and legend. As for that, you still haven't cited your sources, do that, and it'll make it a bit more believable.

[kesslari]

There is a difference between shooting 144 yards and shooting a 200 lb bow.
Modern compound bows, with sights et al, can easily be shot at 100+ yards. I wouldn't risk shooting an animal at that yardage (too much risk of wounding and a not-clean kill), but if I was shooting at an adversary where a wound was not a moral dilemma then no problem.
A friend just got back from Bhutan. Archery is the national sport. They shoot homemade bows and arrows. The traditional target field is 145 meters long, with targets (about the size of tombstones) at each ends. Groups stand by the target at each end, drinking and hanging out, and shoot arrows back and forth. They consistently hit that target at that distance. This is documented in the August/September edition of "Traditional Bowhunter" magazine. The author mentions that when he (an unknown foreigner) stood to take a shot, the locals all moved waaay back from the target.
Korean traditional archery also uses a long field - 142 meters, I believe.
Shooting at massed adversaries doesn't require much accuracy, more important are large volleys of arrows shot together. When 100's of arrows are raining down at the same time, it's likely that some of them will hit something. Worked pretty well for the English at Crecy and Agincourt.
There were some pretty fantastic feats of shooting in the old days. People practiced a lot, and got pretty good. The Ottoman Turks set a record for archery distance (at 874 meters!) that lasted well into the middle of the 20th century. They were also known for being able to shoot 60 arrows in 60 seconds, accurately, on a galloping horse. I had some questions about this record until recently, when a Hungarian fellow, Kassai, successfully shot 8 arrows in 10 seconds into a target off a galloping horse. That's pretty amazing shooting, and suggests that people who had practiced riding and shooting from childhood could probably do better by a bit.
JK

[MatthewAlphonso]

Thank you for that Kesslari, my contention wasn't with the idea that someone could shoot that far. It was simply that someone could do it on a flat trajectory.

Also, thanks for the info on the traditional Bhutan and Korean archery, though the 60 arrows in 60 seconds still sounds questionable. And though I have heard of the Turkish 874 Meter shot, I was told (on the historical forums I go to) that it was with a specially made crossbow and was used to harrass the British from within encampments.

Do you have anything to say about the sinking of ships, or penetrating 2 people, as well as their armour? or anything about the 200 lb bow?

[kesslari]

Hi Matt,
I'll start with what I *do* know.
The 874 meter shot was made, with witnesses (I believe they were British), with not a crossbow, but with a special flight bow (bow designed for distance shooting). The Turks were crazy for flight shooting. Very short, efficient bow, and very short, light arrows (fly farther). It was a demonstration, not a military harrassment.
As far as sinking ships - not something I have heard of. I have heard of 200 lb draw bows being used as training tools, I don't recall anything definitive about them being used in combat. I recall Pope and Young's research finding a Chinese war bow of phenomenal draw weight, might have been 170 lbs or so (don't remember specifically) but it was a surprisingly inefficient bow and didn't shoot with nearly as much power as it otherwise might have.
I could imagine 200 lb footbows but again, I don't have definitive knowledge of them. Similarly, I could imagine an arrow piercing 2 people, even with armor (depending on the armor), depending in large part on the weight of the arrow. Arrow velocity depends a great deal on arrow weight, even more than on arrow speed.
As far as flat trajectories at that distance, the word that comes to mind is "hogwash".
The ATARN site (www.atarn.net) has some seriously scholarly and informed people who could shed more light on these questions, if you're interested.
JK
JK

[MatthewAlphonso]

I can just about guarantee that even a naked person would be quite capable of stopping an arrow with his body, it's not simply a matter of armour (even though it does help). Armour was designed to stop swords and arrows (and bullets, at least for a 100 yrs or so) that's why soldiers would carry daggers and knives around, stick it in the visor, groin (ouchies) or armpit (though often the armpit would be closed off with maille) archery would primarily have been mass fire in order to harrass the lightly armoured folk and spook the horses with the hope that someone was stupid enough to have their visor raised (more common than you think, happeneg quite a bit at Agincourt, sorry, most of my experience is European) and most armours, at least plate, was designed to deflect arrows away from the body, that's one of the reasons Gothic armour has all the nice curves and dips.

Now it's my turn to direct you to a scholarly forum. www.arador.com They are a group dedicated to educating us youngsters about the error of our ways when it comes to armed and armoured combat. Almost all of them have some experience in either making weapons/armour, or using them against opponent that're swinging at them. You can find quite a bit of detailed info, for example this quote about that Turkish distance shot.

You're quite right about flight arrows having long ranges, and Payne-Gallwey in "The Book of the Crossbow" discusses Turkish distance shots of 800 yards (but using very specialised equipment). This could be the sort of bow that was used against the army of Richard I of England to harass his soldiers from long distance; very little penetration, so his heavily padded soldiers ended up looking like pincushions but with few injuries.

I thank you for the new information and am looking forward to seeing your response.

[HtTKar]

Thanks for the great links guys.

I found this on ATARN.NET

From the time of Chinggis Khan and the Mongolian nation proper, there are many accounts of great feats of archery. In the ‘Blue History’, there is a story of Chuu Mergen who his a target from on horseback at about 130 meters. There are accounts of a national competition in which renowned archers such as Tsülegtii, Gölgön Baataar, Sübgetei Baataar, Toghtong Baataar and Khüldar all competed over a distance of about 600 meters, shooting at a cap of deer leather placed on the ground. All could hit the target with one of three shots

We often pull a draw-weight of about 50 - 60 pounds.

Since they still use traditional bows, it would seem that draw-weight everywhere is near 50-60lbs. Stinging a 60lb bow would be a two person job. 144yrds doesnt seem like much when you compare it to 600 meters.

The quote I had about flatline trajectory did seem profound to me. It is a direct quote however, so I put it up for question. Thanks again for the great links

[kesslari]

Hmm...
Stringing a 60 lb bow is a one person job. Stringing an 80 or 100 lb bow is a one person job. I am a traditional archer (meaning that I shoot recurves and longbows, not compound bows). A LOT of guys string and shoot bows in the 60 lb range. Many shoot heavier bows than that. Howard Hill, one of the greatest archers of this century, was known for shooting heavy bows, and shot bows up to 170 lbs while hunting. That's not the record, though, in this century, which is held by Gary Sentman, who drew and shot a 176 lb bow. I hadn't brought that into the discussion because neither of them were using their bows in ancient warfare.
As far as bodies stopping arrows - it is extremely common for hunters to get complete pass-throughs (arrow goes in one side, comes completely out the other side) on medium to big game with bows as light as 50 lbs. Deer (think skinned) and Boar (pretty tough skinned) are two game animals that I can vouch for this directly. This is with moderate tackle (50 lb bow) and arrows of moderate weight (slightly less than 500 grains). Pass throughs in the vitasl (through the rib cage) are not uncommon, and through the gut (no ribs) are extremely common. On the other hand, this is with extremely sharp broadhead points. The sharper the point, the better penetration. The type of heavier bodkin-type points that would be used against armourd opponents would not cut through flesh quite as well (though they would penetrate armour far better than broadheads, and would have no trouble penetrating flesh deeply *enough*).
I imagine that the very heavy arrows used, say, by the English or Mongols would have a great deal of velocity (hitting power), and would easily hit hard enough to go through an unarmored man. Again, I don't have hard data to back that up.
JK

[MatthewAlphonso]

The only reference I have heard of is on Arador and is a reference to a museum displayin which there is a display of a breastplate in which an arrow passed through the first plate and the head passed half way through the backplate. So, it is pretty plain to see that it would be near impossible for a person to get an arrow in and out of one person (short of maybe the neck?), and even then it simply would not generate enough power to pierce someone elses armour, you be lucky to make them fel the impact.


You also have to remember that by the time the first line of enemy troops got close enough for the archer to directly fire the arrows at them, the archers (being very lightly armoured, if at all) may have taken one or two more shots and would have definitly turned tail and run behind the guys with the spears.

[HtTKar]

Stringing a 60 lb bow is a one person job. Stringing an 80 or 100 lb bow is a one person job. I am a traditional archer (meaning that I shoot recurves and longbows, not compound bows).

Didnt know that. Thanks. I know you can put your leg through the bow and push down to string one up, but I thought this would be pretty hard with a heavier bow. For a compound you need a bowpress even with medium weight, figured you'd need a similar tool for recurves...or a helping hand. Maybe it's because the structure of a japanese bow is asymetricle, whereas other bows are symmetrical, I dont know.

As far as shooting an arrow through the person and killing another. This wasnt just a garden variety archer. it was Minamoto Tametomo-one of the greatest japanese archer ever. And it happened only once at Heijinoran.

http://www.chennaionline.com/columns...e/diary176.asp
The most famous of these warriors was Minamoto no Tametomo, an exceptionally large and powerful man whose arrows measured twelve hands and two fingers. His bow was so powerful that it took five men to pull it. He lived in exile in Oshima Island in Ishu and considered the island his private domain and refused to pay the taxes to the Central Government. Finally, the Central Government was provoked to send an armada of twenty small warships to humble him into payment. As a gesture of defiance, Tametomo shot a single large bulbed arrow over the bow of one of the lead ships. By mistake the arrow struck the hull of the ship, a few inches above the water line. The shot was so powerful that the arrow penetrated both sides of the vessel causing it to sink. The sight of a warship being sunk with a single arrow so frightened the other ship captains that they made an immediate retreat.

[MatthewAlphonso]

As far as shooting an arrow through the person and killing another. This wasnt just a garden variety archer. it was Minamoto Tametomo-one of the greatest japanese archer ever. And it happened only once at Heijinoran.

It's not a matter of the archer, it's a matter of the bow itself (as well as physics) and the reference you posted doesn't really seem like a historical reference. It's more along the lines of a legend (though saga seems more applicable) most of the things you read should be taken with a (rather large) grain of salt. I mean would you take the adventures of the stone monkey in "A Journey to the West" as a historical reference? (Yes, I know, "A journey to the West" is Chinese. I don't know any Japanese legends) Sure, there is almost always a historical basis, but not all that you read is true, would you believe all of the Musashi stories?