Can Karate be effective?

[robertlee]

. Yes the vertical can be faster perhaps. And yes reverse and srtaight is basicly the same. But in say stance. rear hand punch is reverse. lead hand straight. Just away to seperate . Yes Its started as A karate punch. I just said Both can be useful. And they both have power. You over defended just one type of punch. vertical fist. I agree in its use. And train it very often. But each person will have there method. Can not condem what others do. If it helps take them forward. . Is your style a spin off Or Chito ryu. No big deal. As good training is good training. And yes some old ways have been lost thru translation. And may never be recoverd. But Its a changing world today. And todays ways. Work for today. A person gets what they put out In the M/A training. And I may not ever be a computer wizard. I did not grow up un them. Just use one some. But I will say youg people can do more then I can on a computer. But they need to remember. Its not the best way to stay in shape.. Lets call this a draw. As no sence taking it more forward in words. And My years in training are as I said. No key board warrior here.

[sojobow]

The fist in punching

. But I will say youg people can do more then I can on a computer. But they need to remember. Its not the best way to stay in shape.. Lets call this a draw. As no sence taking it more forward in words. And My years in training are as I said. No key board warrior here.

*salute*

To those who will listen, robertlee is able to post without a cut&paste from the internet. Because of his years of experience, I'm listening more and talking less. Youth is indeed wasted on the young.

On the subject of horizontal versus vertical fist, I've read every post so far and find it interesting. A couple of post did reference the actual use of the two different punches. Basically, what I've learned, the type of fist is dictated by the target you're focusing upon. Some examples would be:

The area above the top lip and below the nose cannot be struck with a verticle fist. You must use a horizontal fist. However, if your aim is the nose, a horizontal fist works well. In this example, we're talking about two areas less than 1/2" apart.

Another would be the throat and the chin. To get to someone's throat who has slightly lowered their chin to defend, you must use a horizontal fist as a vertical fist won't enter the gap.

There is also a necessity of two (actually three) different fist to attack to sternum, solor plexis and mastoid process. Two different fist for the groin - depending on the angle of attack (from above or below). Notice, in some attacks to the same target, the fist will have changed due to the angle of attack.

There is a third fist very effective for strikes to the eyes, temple.

You have the most power up and down your centerline.

Your style does not dictate the type of fist used, the target does.

peace

[Mad_Mally]

I agree. Vertical fist is best used in close to the body (or at least I find that it is). I also think that a vertical fist helps to protect the wrist some when striking a body.

[Whispers]

It will be effective as long as you practice full contact sparring at some point so that you learn how to apply the techniques in a full out match. Also you'll want to practice with kicking sheilds and what not so that you can develope power behind your blows.
If they don't do full contact in your dojo, just get some friends and do it at a local gym with wrestling mats or what not.

[bodhisattva]

"And yes some old ways have been lost thru translation. And may never be recoverd."

Greeetings, Robert Lee.

I agree with much of what you say, but the above quote, I must disagree with.

The truth is ALWAYS now. No "old ways" can be lost in fighting. Fighting will bring out what is useful, and if it is useful, it will remain.

If it does not remain, it is a moot point.

Fighting shows one when to use a vertical fist : when you can.
Same with a "horizontal fist" : when you can.

It is like standing in front of a cage. If the bars are vertical, you will stick your hand through vertical. If the bars are horizontal, you will stick your hand through horizontally.. There is no question which works best, in the moment.

Because the target isn't the only thing to dictate when a vertical fist will work... the MOMENT is.. The moment dictates the target, and the target dictates what works. But they are, in essence, not separable.

No one had to teach me how to stop hit with a lead hook on my opponents jab. He kept hitting me, and then I found the opening. The moment is the teacher. Getting hit is the teacher.

A punch is just a punch.
A kick is just a kick.

Honest.

[robertlee]

What was lost was some of the tools af training. And application. From leaving one country to the other. Its kind of like. You visit a school watch some one donig a form Asking them what this move means or does. And they say I was never taught what it does. I just do it in the form. Then its lost. because appilication is unknown. BUT yes allways for the person to be able to understand and do. They must find a point of training that is close or real to resistive training. Then they learn more about what they can get off on different people. In real time not prearranged time. Same as whwen aperson goesto college then hits the job market. Book text teachs how to. the job teaches short cuts application in different circumstances. Field training. will have variables to book training. Bled over to the M/A world. learning the tools teachs movement application. Then spar teaches real life skill appliction. No more if and what ifs just do see do agin. If it works you keep it if not you forget it.

[medic06]

bodhisattva,

how long have you been training? Just wondering. . . .

[Tiger and Crane]

If you look at some of the great Karateka of the past (Mas Oyama, Fumio Demura, Tadashi Yamashita, etc.), of course you see that Karate is useful and effective in combat. But I think the problem with Karate is that it has become so watered down, it is only a shadow of its' former self. And this is also true for most other styles, including Kung Fu which is one of the styles I study. If some of the great Kung Fu fighters from the past such as Wong Fei Hung were to see the training that goes on today, he would most likely laugh.

I think there are several problems. First, a lot of teachers stayed loyal to the old way of thinking that some techniques are too "deadly" to be taught until the student is far advanced. In some cases the student would leave the school before learning the entire system, then start their own style or open their own school without understanding the full way of their art. Some students train and don't like the way the system is taught, or they try to add ideas from other systems, or they try to adapt the style to fit their own personality. Thus the original styles became watered down versions.

That is why many martial arts that were once effective in combat have become more of a sport than a martial art. Take another example, Tae Kwon Do. TKD was once used on the battlefield, but now it is best known as an Olympic sport.

I can't speak for other countries but here in the US, there is the fear of being sued by a student causing injury to himself or another student in class. Instead of teaching the full applications of the techniques, as the training was done in the past, teachers now are content to show a watered down version of the style. That way, the students are happy because they think they are learning the "real" style and they do get some benefit (health, mental balance, relieving stress, etc) from the training. And the teacher is happy because he doesn't have to worry about losing his school or personal property in a lawsuit

[bodhisattva]

I think there are several problems. First, a lot of teachers stayed loyal to the old way of thinking that some techniques are too "deadly" to be taught until the student is far advanced.

hee hee.

That is why many martial arts that were once effective in combat have become more of a sport than a martial art.

The REAL sport fighters (boxers, wrestlers, bjj, muay thai) tear the martial artists/combat fighters a new asshole when they fight them. Check out the first few UFC's, friend.

I can't speak for other countries but here in the US, there is the fear of being sued by a student causing injury to himself or another student in class. .

We're a boxing and bjj gym. I don't think we've been sued yet, or even threatened. Good coaching makes all the difference.

[jubaji]

I can't speak for other countries but here in the US, there is the fear of being sued by a student causing injury to himself or another student in class. Instead of teaching the full applications of the techniques, as the training was done in the past, teachers now are content to show a watered down version of the style. That way, the students are happy because they think they are learning the "real" style and they do get some benefit (health, mental balance, relieving stress, etc) from the training. And the teacher is happy because he doesn't have to worry about losing his school or personal property in a lawsuit

What do you base this on? Can you cite three examples of Karate Dojo being sued out of existence because they trained their students too well?

[Tiger and Crane]

hee hee.


The REAL sport fighters (boxers, wrestlers, bjj, muay thai) tear the martial artists/combat fighters a new asshole when they fight them. Check out the first few UFC's, friend.

Lmao, you can't compare cage fighting (where there are rules and a referee) to actual combat. And UFC sucks compared to Pride and K-1. Remember when Sakuraba took 4 of the Gracies to school? That was classic. But that is off the topic. You helped to illustrate my point exactly, that martial arts have become watered down and yes, that is why many martial artists don't know what to do when they fight someone of another style. On the same account, many SPORT martial artists like BJJ and Boxing get beat down when there are no rules in the fight. I've seen a "cage fighter" get his ass kicked by an old biker in a bar fight. Does that mean BJJ is useless in combat? Of course not, and neither are traditional martial arts when they are trained correctly. "It's not the style but the fighter" as the cliche goes.

We're a boxing and bjj gym. I don't think we've been sued yet, or even threatened. Good coaching makes all the difference.

Yes but on the same token, when people sign up at your gym they know in advance what they're getting. A lot of martial arts schools function more as an after school day care than anything else. When the soccer moms take their kids in, they see everyone lined up doing kata or exercises and don't think little Johnny will get hurt in class. And you're 100% correct about good coaching making all the difference, provided your coach or teacher has been taught correctly himself. If he hasn't been taught correctly, then of course he has no business teaching at all but that hasn't stopped many from opening their own school.

[Tiger and Crane]

What do you base this on? Can you cite three examples of Karate Dojo being sued out of existence because they trained their students too well?

I base it on personal experience at a school where I used to train. A young student (she was about 14) was thrown incorrectly during a takedown technique and her arm was broken. The parents sued the school and the owner ended up closing the school as a result. That's why there are even insurance companies that specialize in this type of thing, for school owners who can afford it. I'm not going to cite countless examples but you can read more here:

http://tkdtutor.com/05Instructors/Lawsuits.htm

http://www.mpka.net/Soke_Says/mpka_necessity_insura.htm

[Tiger and Crane]

And a few quotes to further illustrate my point:

"Tae Kwon Do forms are copies of old Shotokan forms. A lot of the movements even in the Shotokan forms were watered down when it moved from Okinawa to Japan. Thus we were learning a watered down system of a watered down system. We read about forms holding all the secret of the art, yet all we do is block, kick, and punch. In this context then when we reach Black Belt we were still learning only the alphabet. Progressing up the Black Belt ranks made no difference, a few more forms with more precision and power, but still elementary."

http://www.classicaldimension.com/williesletter.htm

"Point 4: Some martial arts are no longer arts, they are now sports.

As time passed in modern society, some martial arts have changed into sports. The original combat skills were used for battle, but if battle is taken away, a forum for the use of these skills has also disappeared. Hence the rise of the sport version of combat skills, such as Judo and Taekwondo. While these sports originated from traditional combat skills, they have been organized, created, and defined with the purpose of competing under a specific format. Only certain techniques can be used, and there are rules that dictate how points are scored and a winner is determined. Many of the "Americanized" schools that exist today are also just sport versions of combat skills, and are not martial arts.

There is nothing wrong with being a sport version of combat skills, but it is essential that people understand the difference between martial arts and sports. Even in the way these are governed there is a difference. Sport combat skills are governed in the same manner as other sports. There are national and local organizations which oversee competitions and guidelines regarding fairplay. Just as in other sports, these organizations only have a limited jurisdiction and cannot control others within the same sport if they are in a different league. Again, the primary focus of the sport version of combat skills is competition and not the total personal development of the practitioners."

http://www.hwarangdo.com/publicnotice.htm

"In Asia most styles started out as family systems, taught only to family members to save their lives or the lives of their family or protect their honor. As family members married, the family system would be taught to new, non blood family members and so on. Unfortunately, not all of the system was taught to the new members. It was purposely held back. So the new members (non blood) would also hold back vital teachings as they passed it down to their generations. As this cycled on through out the country side, these arts became "watered down".

When Americans came along in the mid 1940's, the Asians (especially Japanese and Okinawin) only new the Americans from them dropping bombs on them. This being the case, how much of these ancient secrets do you think were taught to them? As an occupying force Americans witnessed Japanese martial artists flying through the air breaking boards and performing what they called "The dance of Death (forms)". The Americans soaked it up like a sponge. However, they were taught the most watered down versions of Karate. The same versions that were being taught to school children at that time."

http://pghkarate.com/origins.html

[Bullshido]

. A lot of martial arts schools function more as an after school day care than anything else.

That's one reason why you see "black belts" who are 8 years old. If the teacher doesn't promote students, then he knows after a while the student and/or parent will move on to another school who will promote them. Sad but true fact.

[jubaji]

I base it on personal experience at a school where I used to train. A young student (she was about 14) was thrown incorrectly during a takedown technique and her arm was broken. The parents sued the school and the owner ended up closing the school as a result. That's why there are even insurance companies that specialize in this type of thing

Ok, what was the name of the school? Do you have two more? I asked for three. And if, as you claim, there is insurance specifically for MA schools, then that can't be a condition that prohibits them from hard contact. Its a false argument.