Is ninjitsu a respectable style?

[koto_ryu]

Where did I come from?

Well. I did plenty of Kata. For one.

And I found it was "hooey".

And when people say "Performing kata will make you a better figher!!!" I tend to jump up and say "Hooey."

Because, simply put, it is.

If you've ever shadowboxed, you've done a version of kata. Shadowboxing is good for boxers, so kata's good for martial artists, as long as they maintain reasonable expectations (i.e. not doing seven-hit combinations and the like) and vary their routines.

[bodhisattva]

Shadowboxing is random and without much structure..it looks a lot like fighting - footwork, striking, evasion and body movement are much like how a person would actually move while defending oneself.

The movement, the strikes, the blocks, the stances..in kata, they look nothing like actual fighting. They are often the opposite of what one should do in a fight.

[koto_ryu]

Shadowboxing is random and without much structure..it looks a lot like fighting - footwork, striking, evasion and body movement are much like how a person would actually move while defending oneself.

Anyone who moves and performs and strikes and evades in a fight like a kata..well..we call him "the loser" usually.

Hence the reasonable expectations I put in my post. Anyone can use katas and adapt them to learn similar to shadowboxing.

So they are very very different. Besides, many people use shadowboxing as a mere warm up. They do not claim it is a key training technique for developing realistic fighting skills. And if they do, I disagree with them..

Means you'll be disagreeing with a lot of the greats: Champ Thomas, Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali, Roberto Duran, etc. I'd rather take their word for it, especially Champ's considering the man boxed for over sixty years

[medic06]

Bodhisattva,

I think you might be on to something there. Forget about kata, forget about shadowboxing. Forget about developing technique. Everyone should lift weights and beat their heads against the wall until they don't feel any pain. Then they will be ready to fight

[sirmattu]

then you simply dont understand it, welcome to being in 95% of the martial arts world.

[Cobra_nVidia]

And when people say "Performing kata will make you a better figher!!!" I tend to jump up and say "Hooey."

"Performing" kata will not make you a better fighter, but practicing breathing, speed, and learning practical techniques will.

Are these elements in Kata? Yes, frankly, they are. Just because you and your instructors were too thick to understand them doesn't mean they don't have a use. But of course, if you don't understand Kata, then yes, they are useless.

Is Kata the best, most efficient way to teach you these components? No, not at all. Hence my post, which you didn't actually read.

Shadowboxing is random and without much structure..it looks a lot like fighting - footwork, striking, evasion and body movement are much like how a person would actually move while defending oneself.

There does not exist a training method that is random and without much structure. Relative to a kata, of course, but a kata isn't designed for that.

A Kata is designed so an instructor can pass on techniques without writing them down. But it's too hard to keep it all in the head, so they developed kata, where the movements were useless without a training strategy and without understanding the applications, that was the whole FUCKING POINT.

The movement, the strikes, the blocks, the stances..in kata, they look nothing like actual fighting. They are often the opposite of what one should do in a fight.

Oh no they are not.
They don't look like boxing.
Boxing is not what you should do in a real fight, there are better methods. And they are in a kata.

[medic06]

then you simply dont understand it, welcome to being in 95% of the martial arts world.

By the way, I was being sarcastic. . .

[koto_ryu]

Boxing is not what you should do in a real fight, there are better methods.

And what better methods are there? Lop saos and centreline strikes?

[bodhisattva]

What a room full of insulting crybabies. Cobra, you sound like a freaking woman with all your little crybaby cursing.. (in shrieky girl voice) "that was the whole FUCKING POINT".. really. You sound like a high school chick.

I'm GLAD you do kata. Please continue.

You guys go ahead and fight your "invisible pals" in your basement or your backyard - turning on the girls and probably a lot of the guys too with your sexy mystic way of becoming a better fighter.

I will continue fighting REAL people who REALLY HIT and REALLY TAKE ME TO THE GROUND..

And I will really learn to fight.

You will just learn to dance around in your pajamas thinking "man, I'm getting really tough, I just beat all these guy's asses (they don't exist) and my technique is getting so much better!"

Of course, a real fighter will beat your ass into a mudhole, but nevermind that, right?

Keep hiding behind your teachers skirt, that's ok. When you get your ass beat, you'll wander over to the real fighting gyms like the rest of us.

Most of us real fighters started out in your "fake fight" classes. That's why we speak against it.

But just like a woman who is living with an abusive husband, no one is going to talk you away from your falsehood until you finally "get it" yourself.

Enjoy doing kata. Just don't trick yourself into thinking they are making you better fighters. And don't tell others that crap either, or you'll be getting them killed someday.

[bodhisattva]

then you simply dont understand it, welcome to being in 95% of the martial arts world.

Yeah. Like all those guys that REALLY fight.. Man. I wonder why the boxer, nhb fighters, and wrestlers of the world don't do Kata, since they have so much money in what they do.

Oh yeah. It's because kata is a waste of time, and they can't waste time. They have to ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO FIGHT..

And by the way, 95% of the martial arts world are doing kata in McDojo's just like you guys. So, welcome to the 95% of the martial arts world that doesn't understand FIGHTING.

[medic06]

Yeah. Like all those guys that REALLY fight.. Man. I wonder why the boxer, nhb fighters, and wrestlers of the world don't do Kata, since they have so much money in what they do.

Oh yeah. It's because kata is a waste of time, and they can't waste time. They have to ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO FIGHT..

And by the way, 95% of the martial arts world are doing kata in McDojo's just like you guys. So, welcome to the 95% of the martial arts world that doesn't understand FIGHTING.

you should beat each other in the head with a 2x4. That'll show those McDojo people

[koto_ryu]

You guys go ahead and fight your "invisible pals" in your basement or your backyard - turning on the girls and probably a lot of the guys too with your sexy mystic way of becoming a better fighter.

I will continue fighting REAL people who REALLY HIT and REALLY TAKE ME TO THE GROUND..

And I will really learn to fight.

You will just learn to dance around in your pajamas thinking "man, I'm getting really tough, I just beat all these guy's asses (they don't exist) and my technique is getting so much better!"

It's foolish to assume that people who do TMAs can't fight, and that only those who do MMA can. I've met some tough customers who've only done TMA, and some big sallies that do MT/BJJ and the like. It's the person who's in the fight first and foremost, not what style they do.

Keep hiding behind your teachers skirt, that's ok. When you get your ass beat, you'll wander over to the real fighting gyms like the rest of us.

Most of us real fighters started out in your "fake fight" classes. That's why we speak against it.

But even some of the full-contact people know when you find something good. How else do you explain a boxer/wrestler sticking with the Bujinkan (e.g. me)?

[Cobra_nVidia]

centreline strikes?

Centerline strikes are cannon for punching in Karate, Gong Fu, and English Boxing. But these people are fools, of course. These bare-knuckled fighters didn't know as much as you do about punching. I think it's appropriate that boxer's gloves are big and red, cause that's what your hand would end up as if you tried to punch a makiwara with a horizontal punching fist, at least unless you were from psuedo-Karate styles, such as Shorin-Ryu and Shotokan (but at least Shotokai recognized their punching style didn't work with the makiwara) which simply have no real power.

[koto_ryu]

Centerline strikes are cannon for punching in Karate, Gong Fu, and English Boxing. But these people are fools, of course. These bare-knuckled fighters didn't know as much as you do about punching.

I dunno, I never hit a guy in the mouth so hard his lower lip got stuck between his bottom teeth. Don't think too many other people nowadays have either.

[Tom Yum]

you should beat each other in the head with a 2x4. That'll show those McDojo people

Do you remember "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan...

He carried a 2 x 4 and an American flag into the ring. Everone thought the 2 x 4 was ok, because he was a good guy...lol.