Standing locks

[danfaggella]

In arts like aikido/small-circle JJ/Chi na, standing locks, like come-allongs, and submissions are often demonstrated. I question the validity of such moves. I wonder why the opponent does not simply jam his other fist into the guys face while he is trying to put on some wrist attack. Is there a secret in making these moves successful? There are so many standing arm locks and standing wrist locks but it seems like they are so simple to wriggle out of and avoid, not to mention there is a free hand to pummel the guy trying to aply them. Am i wrong in saying such moves are ineffective?

[medic06]

Standing joint locks are typically set up with strikes and off balancing, sort of like throws. The locks end with the opponent either on the ground or up on his toes. Just like ground work proper positioning and body mechanics are a must.

[blitz]

You can't always jam a fist when you are in some holds... just like when I twist someones arm to some extent where they can't turn around or they risk making it worse ;O

[Tant01]

In arts like Judo it's called "Kansetsuwaza" and in my opinion it's an art all to itself...

Complete with striking, throwing and ..."heiho" (traditional strategy)

[danfaggella]

I want to learn more about making such moves work in actual freefighting, maybe I should read more about Quin Na?

[Tant01]

Attachment

I want to learn more about making such moves work in actual freefighting, maybe I should read more about Quin Na?

http://www.judoinfo.com/quiz0297_2.htm

Yes, read more. Many styles have variations of quick effective locks and limb destructions. Stick & knife fighting concepts come to mind. ...triangle/figure four locks are simple enough to learn and can be used in straight or bent versions from inside or outside standing, kneeling or on the deck.

[aseepish]

Thinking back to my training in Aikido and Hapkido (a looooong time ago)...

A properly executed standing lock off-balances your opponent, and places him so that his uncontrolled side cannot effectively strike you.

In FMA/Silat, the lock is simply "there". You don't go looking for it. It arises when you're in the middle of something else (clinching/trapping). This makes it less likely you'll be hit during its application. If the lock fails or is failing, the practitioner abandons it and goes back to a primary striking tool - an elbow or knee strike.

[Tant01]

Good tricks draw ships into open water.

...
In FMA/Silat, the lock is simply "there". You don't go looking for it. It arises when you're in the middle of something else (clinching/trapping). This makes it less likely you'll be hit during its application. If the lock fails or is failing, the practitioner abandons it and goes back to a primary striking tool - an elbow or knee strike.

Depends on the practitioner...

Taking advantage of the targets presented during the natural course of the event is like destroying a target of opportunity. It is there for it's purpose for a certain time and you just happen to be there to destroy it at the same time. This is less frequently the case than the exception. A skilled silat man will go after the target that he chooses but usually this will be by some evasive route. It might involve multiple targets to first destroy the defenses of the primary target. It might involve deliberate and elaborate deception, false attacks and a series of actions and reactions but the objective is constant.

Destruction of the primary target can be accomplished many ways.

Usually the practitioner will know where his target will be, when it will be there, the practitioner will know when it is fortified and when it is weak and when he needs to be there to destroy it. That is when it is most economical to deliver your payload.

"Torpedo" silat... Straight line attacks and explosive impacts.

[Sagacious Lu]

In arts like aikido/small-circle JJ/Chi na, standing locks, like come-allongs, and submissions are often demonstrated. I question the validity of such moves. I wonder why the opponent does not simply jam his other fist into the guys face while he is trying to put on some wrist attack. Is there a secret in making these moves successful? There are so many standing arm locks and standing wrist locks but it seems like they are so simple to wriggle out of and avoid, not to mention there is a free hand to pummel the guy trying to aply them. Am i wrong in saying such moves are ineffective?

We practice a lot of these, and if done correctly they can be devastating. They aren't easy to do, generally speaking you have to set them up with one or more strikes, and you have to be fast but they def. work. You have to pick the right tool for the right job but if you apply them correctly your oppenent shouldn't be able to hurt you; it's very difficult to generate power behind a strike when you're in a joint lock. It may be possible to roll out of some techniques, but then again I've seen people try to roll out and they wind up in more trouble then they started in.

[paradoxbox]

If you're questioning the validity of such locks you've obviously never had one applied to you. If someone gets an outside armbar on you, how are you going to punch them? You'll have to reach across your chest to hit them. Good luck with that.

Same deal with shoulder locks, etc.. Maybe you should train more before questioning the validity of things you haven't even investigated yet.

[danfaggella]

I've been put in a bunch of them, some more devistating that others. Some are from aikido, others from kung fu, a few from hapkido, ect... Some are better that others, some are easier to perform than others. Simply because they are martial arts techniques and that many of them CAN be effective doesn't mean that questioning thier ability to be aplied in combat or thier validity on a resisting opponent is wrong or blasphamy. I've been put in standing locks by guys who know a lot on that issue and I've been able to wriggle out easily and quickly without opening myself up, some are not so good, some are not so easy to aply, questioning martial arts is part of progression for me.

If someone asks me about thai kicks and thier effectiveness under certain conditions, im not gunna say "hey, you've never even been thia kicked before i bet! You dont know shit, man, cuz those hurt! dont you EVER question the mighty art of MUAY THAI!!!!"

[Tant01]

Thanks!

I've been put in a bunch of them, some more devistating that others. Some are from aikido, others from kung fu, a few from hapkido, ect... Some are better that others, some are easier to perform than others. Simply because they are martial arts techniques and that many of them CAN be effective doesn't mean that questioning thier ability to be aplied in combat or thier validity on a resisting opponent is wrong or blasphamy. I've been put in standing locks by guys who know a lot on that issue and I've been able to wriggle out easily and quickly without opening myself up, some are not so good, some are not so easy to aply, questioning martial arts is part of progression for me.

If someone asks me about thai kicks and thier effectiveness under certain conditions, im not gunna say "hey, you've never even been thia kicked before i bet! You dont know shit, man, cuz those hurt! dont you EVER question the mighty art of MUAY THAI!!!!"

Indeed..... Thats good ju. If you can't apply it because you only learned a "compliant" version or the steps are too complicated or detailed it gets in the way, you get your ass kicked... On the other hand if you know how to set it up or surprise a guy with it or you "soften him up" first a simple lock can fall right into your arms (or legs) and then you only need to decide if you break it or not...

[paradoxbox]

Properly performed standing arm locks are almost impossible to resist, the only exception is wrist locks. The reason is because you twist your entire body with the lock. That's not just compliant training partner speak. That statement applies just the same to people who are resisting the hell out of you.

It is unbelievably difficult to strong arm your way out of most good standing arm locks, and if someone already has a good grip on your arm you won't be able to yank it away in time. When someone is actually moving their feet and body as well as twisting up your arm for a lock, you are in big trouble, they are basically moving your arm with their entire body weight plus arm strength.

And the faster the person rotates their body the harder your arm is going to snap when one of the joints hits its limit. They work in just about all scenarios where someone has left their arms out too long. Go try it yourself if you don't believe it. This is why I would only ever use my judo throws training against someone I know isn't trained in armlocks.

[danfaggella]

I've been put in them, as I said, and some where better than others, even when performed my high ranking martial artists. There are variables, and not all locks are the greatest or are easy to pull off on different people. I can question some of this stuff all day if I like, but for now I wonder if you guys ever pull it off when you're in trapping or clinch range on a resisting opponent, and maybe mention a few locks that work a lot for you.

[Berserk001]

Properly performed standing arm locks are almost impossible to resist, the only exception is wrist locks. The reason is because you twist your entire body with the lock. That's not just compliant training partner speak. That statement applies just the same to people who are resisting the hell out of you.

It is unbelievably difficult to strong arm your way out of most good standing arm locks, and if someone already has a good grip on your arm you won't be able to yank it away in time. When someone is actually moving their feet and body as well as twisting up your arm for a lock, you are in big trouble, they are basically moving your arm with their entire body weight plus arm strength.

And the faster the person rotates their body the harder your arm is going to snap when one of the joints hits its limit. They work in just about all scenarios where someone has left their arms out too long. Go try it yourself if you don't believe it. This is why I would only ever use my judo throws training against someone I know isn't trained in armlocks.

Yes I agree with some wrist locks definetly don't work on all people but arm locks can work on all people if performe properly.An example of a good arm lock is the one you find in the kata seipai of karate use by nahate influenced styles.