One Bad Karateka

[Motion]

Man!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5faGD5b6Zw

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

is it those long stances that makes them so vulnerable to getting their legs kicked out from under them or what?

[dogzilla]

i dont think i seen a very long stance in their, it was like half half, the realy long stance is like, when he is in long stance he is to your stomach height, or at least my cousin was trained in that kind of stance very very long


but heck i didnt train karate, what im even saying about... any karate dude here to explain in plain words?

[Motion]

If this guy could back up his karate with some BJJ or submission wrestling then he would really be one tough person to deal with outside of Karate tournaments.

[Jiu-fu fighter]

all I can say, is I never agreed with the chambered hands in karate,
sure they make for powerful punches, but the face is left unprotected

if he got some boxing,,,, well, he is already awesome , but he could be even greater

and like the last guy said, some bjj too for the ground

damn.... he would be unbeatable

[Tom Yum]

I'm going to sound like a broken record again, but I can't emphasize enough that there are traditional martial artists out there who can fight. And fight really well...

in arts like shotokan karate, tang soo do, kenpo karate, certain styles of gong-fu and some other not so well known Korean styles. To name a popular example, take Judo Gene Labelle.

If Boar were here, he'd make you repeat the following mantra:

Its the individual, not the style that makes the fighter.

Bruce Lee himself said that an individuals attributes make him a superior fighter.

[Motion]

I'd be curious to know what his training methods were. Aren't all fighters largelly the product of their training? He must have done things that enhanced his skills in a particular way.

[Uke]

This guy was great. Its a TMA competition not a NHB. He's fast and he had great form even on the attack. Did you notice how well he executed those foot sweeps? This guy reminds me of Jadi Tension.

Anyone know who that is??????
Probably not.

[Uke]

Its the individual, not the style that makes the fighter.

Bruce Lee himself said that an individuals attributes make him a superior fighter.

I still only agree with that statement 50%. If it were true, then no school would dominate competitions. No school could bring home all the trophies. That school that produces champions has to be doing something right.

It would be either that or they recruited fighters for their school.

I agree that personal attributes play a big part, but I think that what Bruce meant when he stated that was that you can't take technique A-J and expect them to work for every person. Fat people won't fight like skinny people. Tall people won't fight like short people. They can try, but most won't enjoy success because they are trying to go beyond what they have to work with.

However, Bruce had a number of techniques that he taught. And using those finite amount of techniques, he helped each fighter to find their strong points and then pick which tools to use according to what those strong points were. But they were still using the tools that he deemed efficient for fighting.

The same is seen in TMA's. Just because they don't initially train for a custom fit doesn't mean that they don't encourage personal exploration once you've mastered whatever tools they see fit for combat. Each man will lean toward using whatever favorite techniques he has, and he will then begin developing personal strategies for using them.

Still, I say that there are superior methods of combat and teaching those methods of combat. People who are faster and stronger would excel with less effort, but the method would be the same.

I gave this example before. Early on in the UFC, its no secret that BJJ was dominating the event. It wasn't that they were any better conditioned. They weren't stronger or even necessarily faster. It was purely technique based wins that dominated. BJJ was one of the few arts earlier in NHB where the fighters would keep good form when they fought and didn't resort to brawling and flailing. Most other styles looked just like each other because once they got hit, they reverted to brawling.

If the previous statements about it being about the individual were true, that would mean that every man using BJJ had to be in better shape, faster and/or stronger, and more well rounded than the men they were beating. I KNOW that wasn't the case.

It had to do with what they learned, not with particularly who they were. Brazilians were winning in all the events. From Rickson in Pride, to Renzo in WCC, to Royce in UFC.

That wasn't a coincidence. That wasn't by chance.

[Tom Yum]

I still only agree with that statement 50%. If it were true, then no school would dominate competitions. No school could bring home all the trophies. That school that produces champions has to be doing something right.

It would be either that or they recruited fighters for their school.

I agree that personal attributes play a big part, but I think that what Bruce meant when he stated that was that you can't take technique A-J and expect them to work for every person. Fat people won't fight like skinny people. Tall people won't fight like short people. They can try, but most won't enjoy success because they are trying to go beyond what they have to work with.

However, Bruce had a number of techniques that he taught. And using those finite amount of techniques, he helped each fighter to find their strong points and then pick which tools to use according to what those strong points were. But they were still using the tools that he deemed efficient for fighting.

The same is seen in TMA's. Just because they don't initially train for a custom fit doesn't mean that they don't encourage personal exploration once you've mastered whatever tools they see fit for combat. Each man will lean toward using whatever favorite techniques he has, and he will then begin developing personal strategies for using them.

Still, I say that there are superior methods of combat and teaching those methods of combat. People who are faster and stronger would excel with less effort, but the method would be the same.

I gave this example before. Early on in the UFC, its no secret that BJJ was dominating the event. It wasn't that they were any better conditioned. They weren't stronger or even necessarily faster. It was purely technique based wins that dominated. BJJ was one of the few arts earlier in NHB where the fighters would keep good form when they fought and didn't resort to brawling and flailing. Most other styles looked just like each other because once they got hit, they reverted to brawling.

If the previous statements about it being about the individual were true, that would mean that every man using BJJ had to be in better shape, faster and/or stronger, and more well rounded than the men they were beating. I KNOW that wasn't the case.

It had to do with what they learned, not with particularly who they were. Brazilians were winning in all the events. From Rickson in Pride, to Renzo in WCC, to Royce in UFC.

That wasn't a coincidence. That wasn't by chance.

Some styles, on average, are more competition focused. Because of that, the average guy from that school will be a little bit better fighter than most.

The reason why the Gracies won was simple:

1. They trained to take a fight to the ground and finish it there for over 50 years in live, full-contact matches against resisting opponents, most of whom were stand up fighters.

2. Most karateka and gonng-fu guys at the time trained in a mix of point/light contact fighting and full-contact (with stops) with no or very minimal grappling.

The Gracies exploited a weakness in the more "macho" fighting styles while competiting on NHB events. Technically speaking, it is the individual that matters, as Helio Gracie, a unique individual discovered this weakness in other styles, emphasized certain ranges and attributes and made it his own, training others in a system that he developed and was a little different than traditional Japanese jujitsu.

[Uke]

Some styles, on average, are more competition focused. Because of that, the average guy from that school will be a little bit better fighter than most.

The reason why the Gracies won was simple:

1. They trained to take a fight to the ground and finish it there for over 50 years in live, full-contact matches against resisting opponents, most of whom were stand up fighters.

2. Most karateka and gonng-fu guys at the time trained in a mix of point/light contact fighting and full-contact (with stops) with no or very minimal grappling.

The Gracies exploited a weakness in the more "macho" fighting styles while competiting on NHB events. Technically speaking, it is the individual that matters, as Helio Gracie, a unique individual discovered this weakness in other styles, emphasized certain ranges and attributes and made it his own, training others in a system that he developed and was a little different than traditional Japanese jujitsu.

Not true. The Gracies have been winning for years before ever coming to America. They've won judo competitions. They've won Sambo competitions. And in all those competitions they all are adept on the ground. There is a reason why the BJJ players were winning. And you theory only addresses the UFC era of their success.

Even during the UFC era, my reasoning as to why they won still stands true no matter how explain. Regardless as to whether they exploited weakness or not, it was their training that taught them to do so.

Now out of context, you're attempting to be technical about the fact that its Helio Gracie, the individual who discovered the weakness. That semantics, but on all counts you're still wrong. Maeda was still teaching judo the way it was presented before the final Kodokan syllabus was created. There was a real heavy influence from the Fusen Ryu school of jujitsu that not only emphasized newaza, but defeated Kano and his entire school using that approach when they realized that they were outclassed using tachiwaza. Helio only used the techniques that he did because he was too weak to use the other Japanese techniques due to childhood illness, but he wasn't the first to use the newaza only approach.

Proof that its not always just the individual are the fighters who begin at other schools and become mediocre competitors. They give their all but the quality of the style and training is inferior to other schools. Once they go to another school that may fit that bit, they become champions and sometimes even legends.

The biggest most puzzling part of this all is that you've already agreed that fighters are made. If you believe that, then you have to agree that styles have a large hand in making and molding them.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showpost.php?p=264132&postcount=9

Lastly, a style is only the framework used in making a fighter. Its supposed to condition his movements and reflexes to respond intelligently and practically. If the style/system doesn't have a crucial and intricate role in making a fighter, then what does?

All attributes do is determine how they will use that style and which techniques they will depend on due to speed, strength, power, agility, and length of arm and leg.

[shaolin-warrior]

Great video. this guy definitely studies hard, and is a great tactician. He exemplifies grace under pressure. To him, stepping onto the mats is just another day at the office. Now, the second topic, I believe anyone can be taught to fight and fight well, well enough to bring home trucks full of trophies. But, and there is always a but...... This guy possesses not only skill but a survival instinct that can't be taught, only learned. We have many preteens at our school who come from rough inner city neighborhoods in Ct. Their ability to adapt to a threating situation is instinctive. They have no concept of flight or fight, fleeing isn't an option where the live. We teach them proper form and mat etiquette and after that, they just naturally excel.

[Uke]

Great video. this guy definitely studies hard, and is a great tactician. He exemplifies grace under pressure. To him, stepping onto the mats is just another day at the office. Now, the second topic, I believe anyone can be taught to fight and fight well, well enough to bring home trucks full of trophies. But, and there is always a but...... This guy possesses not only skill but a survival instinct that can't be taught, only learned. We have many preteens at our school who come from rough inner city neighborhoods in Ct. Their ability to adapt to a threating situation is instinctive. They have no concept of flight or fight, fleeing isn't an option where the live. We teach them proper form and mat etiquette and after that, they just naturally excel.

That proves the point. A school doesn't necessarily have to be four walls. The pre-teens who come from rough inner city neighborhoods that have that ability to adapt to a threat have one thing in common: They come from rough neighborhoods. Its not special attributes that make them better survivors. Its the school of hard knocks. That is the school that teaches them how to survive.

[shaolin-warrior]

I agree. but you cant teach a middle class child a socio-economic byproduct no matter how hard you try. These kids live on the same planet but in way different worlds. Sad but true. There are exceptions to every rule, albeit few and far between.

[Uke]

I agree. but you cant teach a middle class child a socio-economic byproduct no matter how hard you try. These kids live on the same planet but in way different worlds. Sad but true. There are exceptions to every rule, albeit few and far between.

Hmm .. I have to disagree. Take the same middle class child and put him in the rough neighborhood and eventually he too will develop those instincts. I know this to be true. Not in all cases, but for the most part if they are transitioned young enough they will make the necessary adjustments.

But the point is that we agree that its less about the individual and more about what they are being taught, and sometimes in what conditions.