Mas Oyama vs Helio Gracie(in their primes)

[Garland]

But he was just a man, and I don't think he would last particularly long on todays MMA circuit..... even if he were allowwed to use his bull killing blows......

Name anyone on the MMA circuit who has a bigger work ethic than monsters like Kimura and Oyama.
Kimura was a top-notch judoka, and has been cited as the best fighter Japan ever produced. Oyama was an intense motherfucker that killed bulls, beat his body into a weapon in solitude, killed somebody with a single punch, and turned karate into something that rivaled muay thai for supremecy in the stand up arena...and I'm a muay thai guy.

Are people like Muhammed Ali, Jack Johnson, Karl Gotch, or Kael Sanderson all being wrongly put on pedestals? NO. They accomplished some pretty fucking amazing shit. Is saying Michael Jordan was/is the best baller in the world bullshit too? Unreasonable hero worship?

What is this..."oh, they ain't shit" talk? It's like assholes who bash Bruce Lee. The fact of the matter with Sigung Lee is that it doesn't matter if he had a single real fight in his lifetime (which he did)...the point is he left a lasting legacy and furthered the martial arts more than any body ever has with the exemption of Boddhidarma and a few Shaolin monks.
It's like JKDguy bashing fucking Helio Gracie, for godsake...look at what BJJ has done to the world of martial arts and combat sports...and look at the people Helio did fight.

WHO do you guys think you fucking are? I mean...I like you Bri, you bring your opinion, which I often value, to the table...but...c'mon man. These guys were "heros" in the sense that they furthered their field and their sports. They were pioneers and originals, and they worked under shittier conditions, and they had a MUCH stronger work ethic.

Even if what you say was true, that these fighters wouldn't hold their own in a modern ring fight (which is complete bullshit) these guys would STILL be superior based on their passion, their obsessive work ethic, and their sheer will and spirit. Who are you people to spit on their legacies?

[Uke]

From what I have seen ( in videos), have heard ( from other martial artists ), have read ( in magazines, online..etc.. )

I have to say that Mas oyama was an extraordinary fighter and i strongly agree with Uke, and hell just my opinion based on what I have seen, I think he would have done awesome in todays MMA.

my two cents,

Of course he would have, Jiu-fu fighter. Thai Bri is just one of the many martial art agnostics that believes nothing is true until he himself sees it on YouTube.

[Jiu-fu fighter]

From what I have seen ( in videos), have heard ( from other martial artists ), have read ( in magazines, online..etc.. )

I have to say that Mas oyama was an extraordinary fighter and i strongly agree with Uke, and hell just my opinion based on what I have seen, I think he would have done awesome in todays MMA.

my two cents,

[Thai Bri]

You haven't provided any details, only the usual perverse hero worship.

Go figure.

[Uke]

I said "the myth of the invincible martial artist." That does not mean that he didn't actually exist, now does it? Please pay attention to detail.

And here we are, exaggerating his prowess. Where are the films of all these fights?

The guy was fanatical, and he did acheive great things in many ways. But he was just a man, and I don't think he would last particularly long on todays MMA circuit..... even if he were allowwed to use his bull killing blows......

Ok, let's pay attention to detail.

You ask: "Where are the films of all these fights?", which is no evidence to the contrary. Just you asking for proof you aren't willing to find yourself.

Then you go ahead to write: "The guy was fanatical, and he did acheive great things in many ways. But he was just a man, and I don't think he would last particularly long on todays MMA circuit..... even if he were allowwed to use his bull killing blows....."

Which is just more of you expressing your opinions, not facts. I stated names, dates and facts, which are the only real details that matter. Every opinion about what he might and might not have been are just speculation and conjecture, not details. No one stated that he was more than a man. His accomplishments were very real and attainable with his kind of work ethic. And this man was alive until 1994 and respected by every martial artist that new him and knew of him. That was during the UFC period. No one in the world questioned the level of his power or prowess then because he had proven himself countless times. No one who fought him said afterwards that his power or prowess was exaggerated, and those men were defeated with one punch.

Pay attention to this detail: Its always men who never fought him or people like him who have mostly negative to say. Go figure.

[Thai Bri]

My question is where is the myth?

I said "the myth of the invincible martial artist." That does not mean that he didn't actually exist, now does it? Please pay attention to detail.

And here we are, exaggerating his prowess. Where are the films of all these fights?

The guy was fanatical, and he did acheive great things in many ways. But he was just a man, and I don't think he would last particularly long on todays MMA circuit..... even if he were allowwed to use his bull killing blows......

[Garland]

his record was 3-3-6.

"Helio eventually fought 17 fights including matches against the world wrestling champion, Wladek Zbyszko and a qualifying fight against the #2 jiu-jitsu fighter in the world, Kato, who Helio choked unconscious in 6 minutes. This victory enabled him to enter the ring with the world champion, Masahiko Kimura, who outweighed Helio by over 80 pounds. Helio Gracie holds the record for the longest match in history for a battle against his former student, Waldemar Santana, which lasted an amazing 3 hours and 40 minutes!"

http://www.gracieacademy.com/helio_gracie.html

Quality over quantity.

[SamuraiGuy]

Helio was like 130-140 pounds.

And I know GJJ is all about how the smaller man can win,but lets be realistic here.

Even Kimura said Helio had better technique than him. Doesnt mean Kimura couldnt smash him though.

It would be like pitting the best 140 LB Kyukoushin (sp?) karateka against Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (Big Nog), and having them go at it, who do you think is gonna win.

[JkD187]

WHAT THE FVCK?! ...no. just stop now, please.

Find anythere there to disagree with? i sure dont know how anyone can argue with facts.http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/i...lies/smile.gif

[Garland]

...some people would look at these next clips and make judgements...I just thought they were cool...and it amazes me how good kyokushin guys are at learning other arts. (Kyokushin is just a Japanese term for muay thai...no, really... I'm half joking)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoBiueeRpiI&mode=related&search=[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zpMAVcvH5Q[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWhSh_huZGs[/YOUTUBE]

[Garland]

Helio was NOT a great or even good fighter if you honestly look at his recorded fights most of his fights were draws...his record was 3-3-6.Thats back in the 30s-50s when pretty much NOONE knew BJJ that is rediclously medicore and thats being extra extra nice.Helio im sure was a great teacher but even then the Gracie's "Dead Guard" method is obsolite nowadays.

WHAT THE FVCK?! ...no. just stop now, please.

[JkD187]

Excellent Post.As much as i love BJJ and all other aspects of MMA....i have to say one thing:Helio was NOT a great or even good fighter if you honestly look at his recorded fights most of his fights were draws...his record was 3-3-6.Thats back in the 30s-50s when pretty much NOONE knew BJJ that is rediclously medicore and thats being extra extra nice.Helio im sure was a great teacher but even then the Gracie's "Dead Guard" method is obsolite nowadays.Oyama was a true fighter with an extremely high leveled work ethic constantly testing the boundries of the human limit and whooping peoples asses.Helio was a tiny framed person all his life and never had the attributes or build to finish of guys with little skill.Oyama would litterly murder Helio...also on a side note if the padding on the mats were thinner in the Kimura vs Helio fight,Kimura would of knocked him cold with his amazing throws.

[Uke]

How can you say that? He was reasonably well muscled, but that's it. No matter how much he puffed up his chest he looked less strong than an average Rugby forward.

This reminds me of things I used to read about regarding a guy called Choki Motubi. Billed as a 7 feet tall monster by many, actual photographs show him as about 5 feet 7 inches.......

The myth of the invincible martial artist! We want to believe it so much we see it when it plainly is not there.

My question is where is the myth?

Mas Oyama wasn't one of those masters that lived in some obscure place and only whispers of his legend survived. This man died in 1994. Many of his fights were televised in America. He went to jail for killing a man with one punch, but was found innocent of murder because the man accosted him with a knife.

There is footage of his bull fights, and if the bulls were sick, how do you explain him getting impaled by one and being hospitalized for 6 months? More than that, there are a lot of men alive today who have met Oyama and can testify to the power of his strikes. He traveled the world taking on challenges, yet leave it to some to call him "mythical".

There's nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate, but there is definitely something wrong with trying to discredit an icon that did less boasting and more proving than nearly any other martial artists in the 20th Century. I read these boards and see who people worship Bruce Lee, a man that they've NEVER actually seen fight outside of movie sequences. But Mas Oyama, a man who fought 270 people in no rule televised matches that usually ended with one punch, fought bulls that were released into large arenas and not confined quarters, and killed a man with one punch is being scrutinized pending further proof. How much more can a man do than defeat hundreds of men on TV, fight and knifehand chop off their horns, and kill a knife wielding man with one punch in front of dozens of people who witnessed it?

Tons of credit is given to the Gracies for taking on fighters, but they didn't want to fight him. Oyama was taking on anyone who would fight one year after Kimura broke Helio's arm. And in that match, there were rules. They weren't striking each other. Helio knew that if he had gotten hit just once by Oyama that it would have finished him.

Oyama isn't mythical in the least. He was just a fanatical man who sought to reach new levels of conditioning and prowess that average men won't ever know. That's what made him great. Kimura, probably the greatest judo icon next to Kano, was the only man Oyama said trained just as hard as he did. And we see how easily Kimura defeated the great Helio Gracie.

Greatness comes from hard work. Legendary status is for men who put in the hard work to rise above the level and accomplishments of average men. They go above and beyond. They are rare, but not "mythical".

It just bothers me when people say things like that about men who are dead now, but more than proved their mastery when they were alive. Go let Master Pan Qing Fu aka IronFist hit you and see if he's mythical. I doubt that you will go, but the proof of higher levels of conditioning is out there.

[Thai Bri]

Look at his frame. The man was a monster. He got bigger with age too. Scary scary.

How can you say that? He was reasonably well muscled, but that's it. No matter how much he puffed up his chest he looked less strong than an average Rugby forward.

This reminds me of things I used to read about regarding a guy called Choki Motubi. Billed as a 7 feet tall monster by many, actual photographs show him as about 5 feet 7 inches.......

The myth of the invincible martial artist! We want to believe it so much we see it when it plainly is not there.

[WildWest.]

Coming from a country with a considerable agriculture background I can honestly tell you first hand that a fully grown bull is an absolute beast of an animal. They are incredibly strong, powerful and huge. They can shatter thick fence posts without even blinking an eye.

Oyama may have been an awesome martial artist (I don't dispute that) but to kill a bull, especially a fully grown one, sounds a little hard to believe.

As a side note. I was travelling in Swaziland (Africa) some years ago and watched about 100 young boys/youths kill a considerably large bull, complete with horns, with their bare hands as a sign of their masculinity in front of the King. It took them over half an hour to do it. I'm not talking little kids, but guys aged around 17 - 25. They don't just lay down and die.