Sword Arts

[Tant01]

Funny boy

Yeah, Tant, I find LOADS OF PEOPLE on web forums think real hard before they spew their opinions and views.

... Quit pouting, quit rolling your eyes like a child, and get over it.

Pouting? LMAO...

MW had a valid point. It does little for your POV (point of view) to dispense meaningless advise... It does even less if your advise or opinion is misleading... When your "facts" are not factual...

Recent events in UK are creating outcry for yet MORE weapon laws and tighter control of knives in general.

In some cities there is a virtual ZERO tolerance policy regardless of the intent or letter of law. You WILL get jail time if you get caught with ANY sort of knife...

But don't take MY word for anything.

[Blue Wave Gym]

Mike I was going to post this friday

When you first posted you comments. I agree that studying a stick or blade art would be more effective than weilding a stick like a sword for the reasons you stated and most things you'd find would be more liek a stick in length. However do you think a skilled kendo exponent or other sword art person couldn't defend themselves with an overhead strike from a broom length why should they change their range or grip to one of a stick. At home I train with bastons, knives and a boken as well as a shortend broom that is between a sword and baston in length and I feel as comfortable with it, the baston or boken. Your comments really mad me think that's why I didn't post before how is the follow up with a baston different thna with a stick that is sword lenght also what about the machette used in battlfield combat the are militaries who tain in the use of the machette (not bolo or kukuri) so it is a short sword what do you think.

[Tant01]

....

A.) What I think of the value of militaries training against and with sword-type weapons, and

B.) Whether or not I think training in a sword art would equip a person to defend against strikes with sticks.

To the first part, I think the value for militaries is distinctly different than the value for civilians. Militaries carry that kind of gear as a part of their regularly issued kit, so it makes perfect sense to train with it nad be capable with it. That benefit and practicality ends abruptly when you enter the civilian world where carrying a bolo around all day might be inappropriate or unfeasible.

.....So the ability of a... person to deal with strikes like the ones you mentioned has very little bearing, since those are not generally the kinds of attacks they're likely to face.

Hope that answers the question...

Not to argue the point (if it's still there) but to offer my perspective...

There ain't much use for a katana, that's for sure. What's interesting to me about "sword arts" is the versatility of the weapon. There is no need these days to sever arms or heads but the sword makes a fine stick. Some specialized skills with it include but are not limited to using it while still in it's sheath as an impact weapon. Also disarming the weapon with haste and skill. Grappling with the weapon or reaping the legs without intent to sever. Choking, locking, and surgical cutting to incapacitate as opposed to outright slaughter.

There is often a pommel to counter balance a blade... Makes a damn fine "stick"... Golf club, bat, shotgun, broomstick, antenna or a chair... Fencing principles, shielding and footwork are invaluable...

Just my humble opinion... Nothing like learning proper distance and timing...

[Blue Wave Gym]

Mike I was asking if a person trained in a sword art woud be able to defend themselves with a sword length sitck against the types of attacks you mentioned, not defend themselves against attacks with a sword length stick. I assumed that the attacker would use a typical weapon.

[nathan rd]

I see.

When, pray tell, is the average guy going to be carrying around a sword length stick? Wouldn't something less obtrusive be, well, less obtrusive?

At a parade in October last year a man was arrested in Oklahoma City for carrying two swords underneath his jacket. Click here for article. The short article is underneath the picture of the dancing girls.

[Tom Yum]

I think its more of a hobby, Mike. People have different preferences.

Some folks like to ride horse, bicylce, rollerblade or jog for fun rather than as an efficient form of transportation. They might be able to get out of their neighborhoods, pick up a thing or two at the store and make it back home - not nearly as capable or efficient form of transport as car or bus, but they do it because its a hobby and they get some benefit out of it.

I've seen people in different cities actually do all of their grociery shopping and bring it home on their bike, even though they could buy a car or ride a bus.

[Tom Yum]

Absolutely, Tom. It's fun to do those kinds of things. I don't know if you got a chance to read the thread on Japanese Sword Arts, but I recently took up Iaido as a way to relax and meditate and I like it. In that arena, it serves a purpose, and it has real value.

But it isn't practical. Not by a looooong shot.

My gripe (and it's not even really that, since I don't care one way or another) is that the art IS NOT a self-defense art. It uses archaic methods and tools, is steeped in ritual, and emphasizes no person to person training. This is just a matter of people trying to make what they like fit what they need. If you're looking for self-defense, look at self-defense arts. Not at a system that was expressly designed to preserve an ancient tradition after it was outlawed. And while studying the methods for quickly drawing a katana, making a cut, and then putting it away or maybe studying how to fight another person weilding a bamboo version of the same, wrapped in thousand dollar armor might make a person a little more capable of reacting to specific attacks, that hardly means it's a good way to go in terms of preparing for real-world attacks.

To borrow your analogy, the guy on the bike enjoys it, and it works. But if he got a call that his wife was dying at home, I've got real money that guy jumps in a cab and says "Step on it!"

When it matters, don't try to convince yourself that the bike has you covered. Ride because it's fun, and because you like that brand of exercise, but please, for the love of God, don't try to tell the guys who drive ambulances and fire trucks that a bike will get them to their respective emergencies just as well.

I know you have it in perspective Tom. The above is not meant to be argumentative, it's just that your question allowed me to expand in that direction.

I agree, Mike. As I mentioned earlier, some people will use less efficient forms of transportation most of the time, because they enjoy it and probably because they have the time to do so.

The guys who drive ambulances and fire trucks have a very specific, job that requires getting from point A to point B in the shortest amount of time. That being said, they need motor vehicles because they move faster. The most efficient form of transport may not be the most practical in all environments or situations though.

For example, police officers ride bicycles and horses on duty in environments that cars cannot efficiently maneuver in - in places like amusement parks or areas where there are alot of people, obstacles or narrow passageways. These forms of transportation allow relatively quick and mobile transportation in such an environment although they are not as efficient as an automobile.

The sword is a bulky, old fashioned weapon that you'll almost never see anywhere and I'd put my money on the firearm over it in most situations but I'd hate to be at the end of a sword handled by an effective swordsman even with another edged or blunt weapon in hand - a sword could make a decent self-defense weapon in the privacy of one's own home in such hands, as exotic as it might seem.

As a street weapon? Obviously not.

[Tant01]

"sword" and "arts"

...


For example, police officers ride bicycles and horses on duty in environments that cars cannot efficiently maneuver in - in places like amusement parks or areas where there are alot of people, obstacles or narrow passageways. These forms of transportation allow relatively quick and mobile transportation in such an environment although they are not as efficient as an automobile.

The sword is a bulky, old fashioned weapon that you'll almost never see anywhere and I'd put my money on the firearm over it in most situations but I'd hate to be at the end of a sword handled by an effective swordsman even with another edged or blunt weapon in hand - a sword could make a decent self-defense weapon in the privacy of one's own home in such hands, as exotic as it might seem.

As a street weapon? Obviously not.

Since carrying a sword is illegal here in Ca. it's fairly a non issue. However I stand by the idea that the principles of many fencing styles will enhance your performance in close conflict...

Anyone who learns to PARRY and step off the line of attack can realize the practical application of fencing principles...

But don't take my word for anything.

[Tant01]

Don't mind me...

Tanto, I don't think anyone's disputing that. All I'm saying is that if you want to learn to parry and move off line, there are lots and lots of arts out there that will teach them even better, and they'll teach them in conjuction with a whole litany of other fight-applicable skills.

... To reiterate:

I think sword arts have tons of value, across a whole broad spectrum of areas. I just don't think they are practical for self-defense.

.......

Hehehehehe.... Just poking fun at the overall significance of the thread itself.

Like any other skill (butcher, baker, candle stick maker) we usually get out of it what we put into it. When we minimize a skill set to the point that a sword is perfectly useless it has been confined into oblivion.

A sword is such a symbolic thing... It reminds me that life is one mistake from over. A breath away lies our own oblivion.

In THAT respect there are few arts that compare...I consider most stick/ knife arts in the same regard. Kali, arnis, eskrima, silat...

Not Japanese so much as weapon based but similar one and all. I'd like to see more folks practice the sword like exercises and footwork. The grappling is a whole NEW game with a blade, ya know? OR is it an OLD game???

Personally I could find more use in a length of rope than a sword...

[sojobow]

Or a length of barrel...

I've read half the responses posted so far (in this thread) and I admit that your answers are really basic and come very close to true rationality. The basic point you make regarding not wasting ones time with Sword Arts and sticking to and training in a fighting art is the efficient path. I do, somewhat, disagree.

My own disagreement is based on the question I've been trying to answer myself and anyone in a martial arts should think on: What is the purpose of "The (A) Book of Five Rings"? How important is it to "know the ways of others" or "know the ways ('professions') of others?"

If you believe that the object of life, in general, is to "Win", then you have no problem investing time and energy in just about every avenue that would assist you "overcomming Man."

True, most of the Sword Arts associated with Kendo do seem in the area of a Hobby rather than a method of warfare, however, think on the point that an enemy TODAY, invades your home and draws a Sword? My first thought might be: better to have knowledge of his offense as you must now overcome him - or flee.

Truth is, regardless of Man's weapons proposed to you, you must still fight the Man and not his weapons.

Same thought would apply to someone testing for a highter wage: you must overcome the person that will make the decision. You might want to KNOW him and his Ways.

[sojobow]

Or a length of barrel...

Question: Would you carry your Gun to Church? But I come real close to agreement. When age, heath etc start ripping your body and you just can't do that spinning-reverse-flying back kick, just shoot him.

[sojobow]

I could not agree more that it is the man and not the tools that must be overcome. But it is absolutely foolish and unrealistic to assume that the tools make no difference. .

Then we basically agree. If a person is interested in taking a few lessons in the Way of the Sword, people should not deter them whatsoever. The weapon you or I might feel is older and somewhat useless today, still has value and any warrior must know something about it. Any person today, with just a minimal knowledge of the Sword, is an extremely dangerous person and by him or her knowing the Swords edge, also means or infers that this person just might also know a little more than just the Sword.

Quick aside. I recently watched a PBS show regarding the Japanese invasion of the American Naval Fleet in Hawaii December 7th, 1942. Interesting to note that a couple of the Japanese pilots had Samurai Swords with them in their cockpits?????????? Now, the pilots were not about to open the window and throw the Sword at some vessel, but it was important to them to have this Katana with them. Think there may have been some type of conflict between these pilots and the Japanese Government/Militay once it was noted this "connection" between the Militay and the "Nuevo Samurai".

Stating this, I'd think the American War Colleges must have studied why these pilots carried these Katana. You or I wouldn't know or have any clue unless we've had some experience studying the way of the Sword.

Again, you and I agree on just about everything so far. All I'd add is that we do not deter anyone from taking up a martial art that we might think is of no use. Remember, well over 90 percent of humans cannot defend themselves today and there are very few warriors left. If studying Kendo will get them in the mindset of martial arts, we never know how their interest will expand from there. Besides, how many Swords do own stashed away in your bedroom?

[Ryan Bellegante]

Why Train with a Sword?

I train in a system where the sword is the omote or outside and our aikijujutsu in the ura or inside. The reason to train with a sword is it demands the most out of you. A sword does not care who you are and what your opinion of yourself is. If you mess up with the sword you get cut and that shows you that hey guess what you did that wrong don't do that again. Combat with bladed weapons is the highest of all human combat you don't get second chances you only get one chance to win and continue on protecting the ones that you care for. That is a quick an dirty of why I train with a sword.

Regards,

[sojobow]

Where does that statistic come from? I think that's a grossly inaccurate estimate. I think a majority of people can defend themselves just fine, as evidenced by the fact that majortiy of people will survive to within a few years on either side of their life expectancy..

I'm on YOUR side and do really agree with your stance (95%). So, i'm not interested in being combative on this issue. You will not find my stat written down anywhere. I have been taught, and fully agree, that you, myself - or just about all human kind - don't have the time in their lives to research everything. We usually find experts on a particular subject, judge their wit, and - if found usually correct - we save a lot of time in research just as you've said about your Sword instructor.

No problem with your stance supported by life expectancy. I'd add thought that (1) quite a few people - after childhood - rarely have any type of physical confrontation for the rest of their lives; (2) if you consider fleeing as a method of survival, running away would also enter your statistic since this person "survived." (3) Quiting, give him your wallet, surrender also might take a few slots in your stats.

But then again, what happens when you do, in fact, run into a warrior? That physical confrontation is ON (your bluff didn't work). Fleeing/Running away will not help because the warrior has trained to run you down no matter how far or how fast you fell. The warrior will NEVER quit or accept your surrender especially if you initiated the confrontation.

Thus, I agree with you ACCEPT when the untrained stands against the martial artist (now maybe - the 95% stat holds up?)

But that's the thing. I don't see any real combative application in Iaido, nor does the instructor of the class. HE calls it a method of historical preservation, not innovation or realism.

There are other forms of sword training (Kenjitsu, Sulsa, FMA, Aikido) that do put some realism in the current use of the Sword. But, we're being redundant expecially when looking at this subject from a Sword-Drawing specialist. Maybe we've clarified our stances by now. Meditation is also a great use and is a "martial" benefit.

[TTEscrima]

The Virtue of the sword

Virtue of the Sword