Shotokan discussion from Belt Thread

[Thai Bri]

Correct - it is also criticised by people who DO have a clue.

[Hardball]

BUMP. I was about to start a thread entitled what about "Shotokan" And then I found this one. Very interesting. I am Bumping it to the top for a friend.

[Hardball]

Man this was a great thread. I especially liked the "BAD MO FO TALK" Hilarious

[Nit]

The main thing you need to know about *ANY* martial art is this, unless you are training specifically for an attack which is likely to happen to you, then what you are being taught won't be effective for you for a long time and unless you train hard.

It doesn't matter what art is 'the best', pick one that teaches you how to whallop the shit out of an aggressor, and stops you getting whalloped. ignore any mysticality, leave that for the 'professional artists' and get working on body conditioning and punching / kicking hard, fast and on target.

There is an invisible thread between 'self defence' and 'martial art' that many instructors cannot seem to seperate, for the average bloke/lass on the street all you need to so is train not much more than what you already know.

names to look up are Geoff Thompson (Dead or Alive) & Richard Dimitri (The Shredder).

Rgds

[MADDOG]

Hello,

When my Old School American TKD MDK instructor decided to relocate I then trained for 3 years in Shotokan.

MDK to Shotokan, I taught, would be a logical transfer based on their mutual history. I was wrong.

In Old School American TKD MDK, are focus was self-defense/ martial.

Shotokan’s focus was some where in between sport, martial and a refinement of the basics.

Please, note this not a bash of Shotokan. This was just my experience at one Dojo. I will state that Shotokan will excel your basic percussion techniques. Shotokan focus purely on the basic and teaches the hows and whys. I have yet to experience a better teaching of the biomechanics of performing techniques, than my Shotokan experience.
As with all arts, it is what you make it. My TKD MDK is no different. It has become the norm at most TKD School to be teaching a McDojo MA. When I say that I teach TKD MDK I always have to prefix it with the ‘old school’ and request that any inquiries should first experience this art before making a judgment. I would recommend this strategy for any art.

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[HtTKar]

ryanhall that guy sounded like a real a$$. He would have been that way, whether he was a boxer, wrester, or Yoga practictioner. Shotokan is not as bad as people make it out to be. However, I do think that it caters to a family friendly atmosphere. You get a lot of weaker minded people attending shotokan than, for example boxing.
Without any training at all, I would say that a potential boxing student would already beat a potential karate student. Only because some people are born fighters, and others are not. Those that are not born fighters choose arts that do not put them at risk of bruising their ego. Put a born fighter in any art, he will excell, and he will always be a tough dude to fight against. Not all karate schools cater to the family atmosphere however. These usually teach "hard style" with full contact sparring, and tons of body conditioning. These schools weed out the weaker people that go somewhere else for instruction. If people want to take martial arts, you really cant stop them. You cant make people tougher if they're not devoted. All you can hope for is that its too hard for most people to stick around and they go to a different dojo. The problem is, that in a big city there can be 100s of karate dojos to choose from. One of them is bound to accept anybody that walks through the door.

[Cobra_nVidia]

There's a couple of things I would like to add to this Shotokan bashing thread.

1. The name shotokan can be used freely. Only the Shotokan Karate of America and the Shotokai (which have as their headquarters the Shotokan) have any real ties to the Funakoshi family. The JKA (the most popular style) is not on this list, nor are the McDojos

2. Shotokan is about conditioning. Any Karate person who thinks the stances are anything more than strengthening you legs (and no, you cannot gain the same benefits using weight training. If the power of your legs mattered, I would be immovable in the basic stances) is completely ignorant of the work of Yoshitaka Funakoshi, acting to lower the stances. Another style that uses some lower stances is Goju-Ryu, which as you know derives from Naha-Te, and is also about conditioning

3. The biggest problem with the martial arts of the classics is that people give no thought to actually using the techniques. Of course, this doesn't really matter, as MOST people taking Karate, at least Karate-Do, are not really there to learn how to fight. The aggressive people are usually shown the door

4. Although the movements are sound in many cases, the applications to techniques have been lost. The Gedan barai is not useful as a block - nor is it intended for utility against kicks (that would be the X-block's territory, a double-double bone block!) Only the circular blocks can even be considered true blocking, and they are considered more "advanced". Blocks such as Uchi-uke and age-uke contain the block in the "set" half of the technique.

5. There are numerous other problems in Karate, such as being too tense (tensing the muscles have never helped me remain stable in a stance, or execute a powerful punch; quite the opposite in fact) and not understanding chambering (a grappling move) that plague and make it merely a manaquin version of the real thing. Ha!

6. There are lots of stories of its effectiveness, and its ineffectiveness. It is rarely the same practionioner. Don't ever think just because you "know" Karate you are a competent fighter

[sirmattu]

way toooooooooooo many ignorant people on this site!

[HtTKar]

I'm British and I still don't know what a 'wap' is...

Mind you I would agree in the statement that all Americans are big fat wap's... don't they all wear TShirts that all too small (XXXL) theat have "I'm #1" too?

WOP means Worker withOut Papers. There just happened to be a lot of Italian immigrants at the time. So this stuck as a derogitory Italian Term.


Cobra_nVidia is that you...Your one hot chick.

2. Shotokan is about conditioning. Any Karate person who thinks the stances are anything more than strengthening you legs...is completely ignorant of the work of Yoshitaka Funakoshi, acting to lower the stances.

The stances are more than just conditioning the legs. For example when learning how to do a (boxing) Falling-step jab, you first take large steps of about 3'. This teaches your body the mechanics without telegraphing. After your body learns the mechanics, you will react the same whether taking a 3' or a 3" step. As you progress your are supposed to raise your stances up to normal heights. The lower stances are used only in practice...This is a technique for training your body against telegraphing. If it was just conditioning, there are many more efficient ways to condition your legs.

5. There are numerous other problems in Karate, such as being too tense (tensing the muscles have never helped me remain stable in a stance, or execute a powerful punch; quite the opposite in fact). Ha!

You should never be tense. Being tense is common among beginners, but as you excell you should keep your body loose and light of your feet. The only time that you should tighten your fists (in a grabbing action) is right at contact with another person. This adds a snap to you punches and kicks. Being tense makes you slow to react, and makes you tire out quickly. I hope noone beleives that any art would purposely teach people to remain tight and tense, in a low stance during a fight. If there is any question, you should ask your instructor.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Cobra_nVidia is that you...Your one hot chick.

Nope, it's Adriana Lima

The stances are more than just conditioning the legs. For example when learning how to do a (boxing) Falling-step jab, you first take large steps of about 3'. This teaches your body the mechanics without telegraphing. After your body learns the mechanics, you will react the same whether taking a 3' or a 3" step. As you progress your are supposed to raise your stances up to normal heights. The lower stances are used only in practice...This is a technique for training your body against telegraphing. If it was just conditioning, there are many more efficient ways to condition your legs.

Unless you're saying the stepping has an effect on something other than the legs, we're talking about the same thing.

What other methods could be superior to improving stability than forcing the legs to hold your center of gravity stable with a wide base?

You should never be tense. Being tense is common among beginners, but as you excell you should keep your body loose and light of your feet. The only time that you should tighten your fists (in a grabbing action) is right at contact with another person. This adds a snap to you punches and kicks. Being tense makes you slow to react, and makes you tire out quickly. I hope noone beleives that any art would purposely teach people to remain tight and tense, in a low stance during a fight. If there is any question, you should ask your instructor.

In sport Karate, there is a lot of tension during a technique, especially near the end. In real "Kime" Karate, there is no tension. The fist is closed, and atemi is used to chose the correct target. In Kime Karate, the energy is not dispersed within your own body, but transfered to the target. It takes a lot of work and hand conditioning to do this (I have noted that as I hit cement floors, etc, my fist finds the perfect form to do this without any needless tension).

[HtTKar]

Gichin was from Naha, as is Goju-Ryu. This is why they are so similar.

One thing that people forget is that Yoshitaka was not taught by Gichin. It was an Okinawan custom to not train their own offspring. Gichin could not train with Azato because he was so sickly. Azato started to train him, but found that it was too difficult for Gichins weak body so he passed him off to Itosu (who at the time was teaching a softer version of Karate).

Azato did train yoshitaka though. Azato re-introduced the deeper stances and greater strength that Gichin was not capable of by teaching Yoshitaka. Yoshitaka later added these to shotokan along with some other Kata. Azato and Yoshitaka were both great, However Azato taught very few students, and Yoshitaka only taught for 9-10 years.

Unless you're saying the stepping has an effect on something other than the legs, we're talking about the same thing.

Here I mean that the intended effect is not actually on your legs, not to strengthen your legs, or provide balance. Rather it is a way of teaching so that when you move you do not telegraph. Your body stays at the same height throughout all movements. You learn to not move backwards, or outwards before striking, etc. Sure it does strengthen your legs, but that is not the intention, rather a side-effect. Being able to kick, strike, or evade without telegraphing your intentions is the intended affect.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Gichin was from Naha, as is Goju-Ryu. This is why they are so similar.

That's news to me, who told you that? Officially, he was born in Shuri. That's proabably why he was trained more by Itosu and Azato, who were students of Matsumura. Although he did study some with Higashionna, hence the similarities to Naha-Te. Also, all Karate styles bear a resemblance to the styles of Kung Fu talk in Fukien province, as that was where Sakugawa and Higashionna went, though separated by over a century...

One thing that people forget is that Yoshitaka was not taught by Gichin. It was an Okinawan custom to not train their own offspring. Gichin could not train with Azato because he was so sickly. Azato started to train him, but found that it was too difficult for Gichins weak body so he passed him off to Itosu (who at the time was teaching a softer version of Karate).

True

Azato did train yoshitaka though. Azato re-introduced the deeper stances and greater strength that Gichin was not capable of by teaching Yoshitaka.

Again, where? Shuri is known for high stances.

Here I mean that the intended effect is not actually on your legs,

So it's on your arms?

[HtTKar]

yeah,
Gichin was born in Shuri. He began learning Shorin-ryu (Shuri-te) from Azato, but was unable to continue. However he moved to Naha, and learned Shorei-ryu (Naha-te) from Itosu. He mixed these two main styles together to form shotokan.


I do have a question though.
Why do you not consider the JKA as being Shotokan? Nakawama, one of Funakoshi senior students, was JKA. Funakoshi was also the head of JKA and Japan Karate Do Shotokai until his death which was 20 years before SKIF was even created. Mr Kanazawa, the only Shotokan master to hold 10th Dan, used to be JKA before splitting off and creating the SKIF. SKIF was not even created until 1977. I only ask because this is the kind of information that is hard to find anywhere. What keeps JKA from now being considered as shotokan? Why is SKIF considered shotokan eventhough it wasn't created until 1977? I am learning a lot through this discussion and hope to keep learning. Thanks for your time.

[Cobra_nVidia]

yeah,
Gichin was born in Shuri. He began learning Shorin-ryu (Shuri-te) from Azato, but was unable to continue. However he moved to Naha, and learned Shorei-ryu (Naha-te) from Itosu. He mixed these two main styles together to form shotokan.

Itosu developed the Pinan Kata. He was Shorin-Ryu (may have even been the first to coin the term, or Chibana)

I do have a question though.
Why do you not consider the JKA as being Shotokan? Nakawama, one of Funakoshi senior students, was JKA.

Masatoshi NakaYama?
Specifically, I think I said the JKA does not have a Funakoshi Family's permission to use Gichin's poetry name, Shoto. Which is true. Both the shotokai (obviously) and the SKA have permission to use this poetry name.

Funakoshi was also the head of JKA

He was given an honourary title (Emeritus I believe, "retired") and was never in charge. He told his student, Master Harada, not to associate with Japan at all, but instead found his own organization outside of Japan.

Mr Kanazawa, the only Shotokan master to hold 10th Dan,

That's one of the reasons the JKA isn't really "Shoto". Funakoshi was 5th Dan, Egami was 5th Dan, Oshima is 5th Dan...
Belts are related to Budo, and the 5 Dans related to Taoism

What keeps JKA from now being considered as shotokan?

JKA style utilizes tight muscle contractions to achieve Kime. These isometric contractions of the arm and chest act to stop the punch, and make it ineffective. As well, most JKA people consider the BEST KARATE series to be the bible of Karate. Shotokai and SKA (Oshima in fact translated Funakoshi's books) utilize the Karate-Do Kyohan, and Nyomon (sp?) to follow Funakoshi's wishes....

[HtTKar]

JKA style utilizes tight muscle contractions to achieve Kime. These isometric contractions of the arm and chest act to stop the punch, and make it ineffective. As well, most JKA people consider the BEST KARATE series to be the bible of Karate. Shotokai and SKA (Oshima in fact translated Funakoshi's books) utilize the Karate-Do Kyohan, and Nyomon (sp?) to follow Funakoshi's wishes....

Kool. I hope your right, because I believe you.

That's one of the reasons the JKA isn't really "Shoto". Funakoshi was 5th Dan, Egami was 5th Dan, Oshima is 5th Dan...
Belts are related to Budo, and the 5 Dans related to Taoism

Mr Kanazawa, never became 10th Dan until the year 2000, which was almost 30years after SKIF was created. I'm not sure what he was before he left. Did I miss what you meant here?