Shotokan discussion from Belt Thread

[Cobra_nVidia]

Did I miss what you meant here?

I meant that few people realize that in "Traditional Shotokan" there are only 5 Dans, not 10. It's ONE of the measures you can use to distinguish legitimacy (that is not to say another style cannot have 10 dans, or 15, or 50)

Kool. I hope your right, because I believe you.

(In a Mr. Burns voice) Excellent...

[HtTKar]

I meant that few people realize that in "Traditional Shotokan" there are only 5 Dans, not 10. It's ONE of the measures you can use to distinguish legitimacy (that is not to say another style cannot have 10 dans, or 15, or 50)

Thats my point on this one. Kanazawa was never 10Dan until he was in SKIF.
You say SKIF is traditional, but you also say that "Traditional Shotokan" doesnt have 10 Dans.

Kanawaza being the founder of SKIF and also being 10th Dan seems contrary to what you say. It would seem that if SKIF was traditional, then the highest ranking member could only be 5th Dan.

Also here is a link for a SKIF Rokudan

http://www.skif.freeserve.co.uk/stirling.html

This link also shows many SKIF instructors above 5th Dan

http://www.skkifwatford.co.uk/SKIF%20Head%20Instructors.htm

So SKIF allows more than 5 Dans, as does JKA. Other than having a slightly different focus, what keeps JKA from being considered traditional? I only ask for more understanding. Hope I'm not bothering you too much.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Most Japanese Martial Ways use a system of 5 dans for technique, 6-10 are honorary
So a 8th dan is still the same as a 5th dan in skills

Because Karate traditionally didn't use a kyu dan system, Funakoshi therefore didn't have a 5th dan before he went to Japan

Honorary grades can be issued by a variaty of people and institutions

For instance, the top students of a teacher can decide to award their teacher a higher grade ( this is how Mas Oyama got them)

Or the Budokan could award it because of what one did for a specific MA
Even the Royal Family can issue it ( Hironori Ohtsuka got his Meiji this way)

So to say someone isn't shoto because he has a higher grade than 5th is nonsense

[Cobra_nVidia]

You say SKIF is traditional, but you also say that "Traditional Shotokan" doesnt have 10 Dans.

Did I say SKIF was traditional? I had to look up what SKIF actually meant. I believe I said

Only the Shotokan Karate of America and the Shotokai (which have as their headquarters the Shotokan) have any real ties to the Funakoshi family

which is what your referring to

This is the Shotokai and the Shotokan Karate of America

http://www.shotokai.com/

http://www.ska.org/

So to say someone isn't shoto because he has a higher grade than 5th is nonsense

And yet you have no specific examples...

Let's look at the two "Shoto" organizations - the SKA and the Shotokai

Did Master Harada grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Hironishi grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Egami grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Oshima grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Funakoshi (Gichin or Gigo) grade above 5th Dan? No

Funakoshi established 5 - and only 5 Dans. That's NOT how my system works, but we are also not Shotokan, so it doesn't matter. As I said, other organizations may work as they wish - even the JKA, which does not have any rights to the Shoto name, nor is it involved in publishing Funakoshi's works.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

And yet you have no specific examples...

Let's look at the two "Shoto" organizations - the SKA and the Shotokai

Did Master Harada grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Hironishi grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Egami grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Oshima grade above 5th Dan? No
Did Master Funakoshi (Gichin or Gigo) grade above 5th Dan? No

Funakoshi established 5 - and only 5 Dans. That's NOT how my system works, but we are also not Shotokan, so it doesn't matter. As I said, other organizations may work as they wish - even the JKA, which does not have any rights to the Shoto name, nor is it involved in publishing Funakoshi's works.

So if the Butokukai or the Budokan decide to honor them for what they have done for Karate, they immidiately become NON Shoto?

[Cobra_nVidia]

So if the Butokukai or the Budokan decide to honor them for what they have done for Karate, they immidiately become NON Shoto?

Give a Shoto example. Ohtsuka and Oyama are non-shoto.

And yes, some people (ex. Oshima) have been offered higher Dans, but have refused to be given a rank higher than Funakoshi got. How could anyone in Shoto accept an honour which Shoto himself did not accept?

BTW, the 10 Dan system involves more than just 5 Dans of technique and 5 Dans of honourary promotion. For example, when I go for my 6 Dan, I have to come up with a thesis, and by 7 Dan I need to have evaluated it in training.

Any one of the 10 Dans can be given through Karate, or honourary through public contributions (e.g. an internationally respected figure promoting Karate...)

[Hardball]

This Shotokan thread has gotten HOT. I hope I didn't ERROR in pulling this BUMP. I took shotokan for a year but ran out of tuition money. I liked everything about shotokan except for the side snap kick and the amount of time they spent perfecting the usless stances. Especially the part about keeping your back foot flat on the ground. I moved on to being a ronin; then when I got more money i took up jujitsu. Because of this thread I would never go back to shotokan. Although I like their Heain Forms 1-5.

Bowing Out

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Give a Shoto example. Ohtsuka and Oyama are non-shoto.

And yes, some people (ex. Oshima) have been offered higher Dans, but have refused to be given a rank higher than Funakoshi got. How could anyone in Shoto accept an honour which Shoto himself did not accept?

BTW, the 10 Dan system involves more than just 5 Dans of technique and 5 Dans of honourary promotion. For example, when I go for my 6 Dan, I have to come up with a thesis, and by 7 Dan I need to have evaluated it in training.

Any one of the 10 Dans can be given through Karate, or honourary through public contributions (e.g. an internationally respected figure promoting Karate...)

Of coarse Ohtsuka and Oyama aren't Shoto, Ohtsuka split of even before the name Shotokan was used, also they ( gichin Funakoshi and hironori Ohtsuka) had different visions on Karate, whereas Funakoshi stressed Kata, Ohtsuka stressed Kumite, he and Konishi, were the first to experiment with it
as far as Oyama goes, he didn't care much for the training of gigo ( giko?) Funakoshi, the only things from it in Kyokushin are the Pinan Kata and is the reversing of the terms soto and uchi, which as far as I can judge came from gigo, seeing that Wado uses it the same as Okinawan styles

Most japanese MA styles that use the kyu dan system use 5 technical grades and 5 or more honorary
I don't think it is so much that Shoto people don't want a grade higher than the founder but more a kind of protest that Funakoshi never received a higher grade ( possibly due to him being Okinawan) of the Butokukan or the Budokan
Take into account that Funakoshi got his 5th dan because the japanese kept asking what grade he was therefore on Okinawa they decided to give him 5th because in japanese MA that was the hhighest Tech grade, they didn't give him a higher grade because non of the masters on Okinawa at that time had any grade at all, plus Funakoshi wasn't the best Karateka, he was the best candidate for a diplomatical job, he was wel mannered and well educated, things you need to be an ambassador of Karate

A different Ambassador would have resulted in Karate being less well known but also less fragmented, less people would have found that the Karate they were instructed was lacking in one way or another

As a last remark, I do not see why Funakoshi is considdered the father/founder of modern Karate seeing that he did no more that convey Yatsutsune Itosu's changed Karate system, it is he who made Shorin based japanese Karate what it is ( working in rows, moving up and down the dojo doing basics, the pinan kata the ommitance of Bunka, oyho and henka as well as Kyusho and tuite, in short the simplicication)

[Cobra_nVidia]

Of coarse Ohtsuka and Oyama aren't Shoto, Ohtsuka split of even before the name Shotokan was used, also they ( gichin Funakoshi and hironori Ohtsuka) had different visions on Karate, whereas Funakoshi stressed Kata, Ohtsuka stressed Kumite, he and Konishi, were the first to experiment with it
as far as Oyama goes, he didn't care much for the training of gigo ( giko?) Funakoshi, the only things from it in Kyokushin are the Pinan Kata and is the reversing of the terms soto and uchi, which as far as I can judge came from gigo, seeing that Wado uses it the same as Okinawan styles

Of course they are non-shoto. So they have nothing to do with Shoto Karate. So don't use them to say I'm silly for thinking there are no Shoto-Ka beyond 5th Dan. There aren't. Not even the SKA has them.

Most japanese MA styles that use the kyu dan system use 5 technical grades and 5 or more honorary

The Dan system adopted by the JKA involves approximately 3 technical grades, and up to 9th Dan. At 4th Dan, you can produces 1st Dans, and hence the focus is no longer on your physical abilities.

In fact, the Dan system is related to Budo, no Bujutsu, so technical ability is secondary.

I don't think it is so much that Shoto people don't want a grade higher than the founder but more a kind of protest that Funakoshi never received a higher grade ( possibly due to him being Okinawan) of the Butokukan or the Budokan

That doesn't make sense. If they are willing to protest the fact that Funakoshi never recieved a higher grade, they wouldn't want to grade higher than the founder. In fact, Oshima refused higher grades because he did not want to grade higher than Funakoshi. Also, who introduced the Kyu-Dan system? It was Kano. He would have given Funakoshi whatever he wanted.

Take into account that Funakoshi got his 5th dan because the japanese kept asking what grade he was therefore on Okinawa they decided to give him 5th because in japanese MA that was the hhighest Tech grade, they didn't give him a higher grade because non of the masters on Okinawa at that time had any grade at all, plus Funakoshi wasn't the best Karateka, he was the best candidate for a diplomatical job, he was wel mannered and well educated, things you need to be an ambassador of Karate

So let me see if I have this straight
1. There are 5 technical grades and 5 honourary grades
2. Funakoshi recieved the highest technical grade
3. He didn't recieve the "honourary grade" because he was not technically good enough?
By the rules of the JKA, he SHOULD have gotten at least an honourary 10th Dan, had he not refused.

A different Ambassador would have resulted in Karate being less well known but also less fragmented, less people would have found that the Karate they were instructed was lacking in one way or another

It's doubtful. Either it would never have left the Ryuku islands, or it would have fragmented the exact same way. Notice Oyama and Ohtsuka created DIFFERENT organizations - in other words, they didn't agree with Funakoshi, or each other. Think about the thousands of Kung Fu styles that have come and gone...

As a last remark, I do not see why Funakoshi is considdered the father/founder of modern Karate seeing that he did no more that convey Yatsutsune Itosu's changed Karate system, it is he who made Shorin based japanese Karate what it is ( working in rows, moving up and down the dojo doing basics, the pinan kata the ommitance of Bunka, oyho and henka as well as Kyusho and tuite, in short the simplicication)

1. Introduced it to the Japanese Emperor
2. Adopted the Kyu-Dan system from Judo
3. Go it accepted as a form of Japanese Budo.

I agree, however. Funakoshi's Karate was Karate-Do, not Karate-Jutsu, or Sport Karate (Modern Karate). It focused on Kata and things like cooporation and humanity. These don't make you the best fighter, or the best sportsman. Motobu was without a doubt the master of the fighting aspects of it. Maybe those people that want to practice Karate as a fighting art (which I imagine is most here!) should look to him and not to Funakoshi.

As for the sport, umm....boxing is much more fun to watch

[HtTKar]

http://www.ska.org.uk/Grading%20Syllabus.htm

The above link is the grading syllabus for SKA. This shows up through 9th Dan

Below are three different Shotokai above 5th Dan
8th dan Norman Robinson (S. Africa)
6th Dan
Japie Storm (S. Africa) , Pierre Jordaan (S. Africa)

So anybody of any organization can be above 5th DAN. It is truly up to the individual whether or not they want to accept higher DAN rankings. Shotokai is still shotokan whether or not a couple people accept belt rankings over 5th Dan. It's all just personal preference at this point in time. Having above 5th DAN didnt start until the 1950's. At that time it was still Karate, not Shotokan.

I found a great article online that breaks it down

http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/essays/identity.html

[Cobra_nVidia]

http://www.ska.org.uk/Grading%20Syllabus.htm

The above link is the grading syllabus for SKA. This shows up through 9th Dan

hehe....different SKA

Below are three different Shotokai above 5th Dan
8th dan Norman Robinson (S. Africa)
6th Dan
Japie Storm (S. Africa) , Pierre Jordaan (S. Africa)

Those all come from the same place? I noticed he (Norman Robinson) trained with the JKA, and no mention of the actual Shotokai in Japan (www.shotokai.com) or in Europe (Master Harada's KDS http://www.karatedoshotokai.com/) and they allow tournaments. I wonder what makes them Shotokai? Probably just used the name.

I found a great article online that breaks it down
http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/essays/identity.html

Mogens is pretty kool. I don't see how this supports your post though, seems more like it's saying "DON'T ACCEPT ABOVE 5th DAN!"

Later,
LW

[HtTKar]

Mogens is pretty kool. I don't see how this supports your post though, seems more like it's saying "DON'T ACCEPT ABOVE 5th DAN!"

Right.
It supports your post. Thats why I put it up. Another way of saying what you were trying to say. One thing it does show is that the tradition of only 5 Dans is certainly dying off, and as now is only personal preference.

Another interesting point in that article is that at the time that Gichin was around you could only get to Godan. This was only the 1950's. Then again it wasnt called Shotokan at that time, it was simply karate. By the time that Shotokan developed into its own type of karate, people were already getting belts above Godan.

So, you're right. Tradition states (based on oriental philosophy/religion) that Godan is the highest rank that can be attained. However it seems that tradition isn't really holding up very well in the western world anymore.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Then again it wasnt called Shotokan at that time, it was simply karate.

You're right. Shotokan is the name of a dojo not a style. The first one was destroyed in the war, and the second was built in the seventies. Funakoshi taught KARATEDO, the way of Karate. In fact, Funakoshi Karate bared a resemblance to Kyudo (The Way of the Bow) Iaido (The Way of Sword Drawing) and Kendo (The Way of the Sword) in many ways, as opposed to Ryukuan Kempo.

The resemblances to Kendo involve the long range kihon kumite and the long range Kata applications. These changes both help protect the participants, but make it a not-so-realistic recreation of real fighting

As well, all Budo arts contain (must contain) Kata and individual practice. The actual fighting is not central to Budo, or Funakoshi Karate. Funakoshi Karate, like Iaido and Kyudo, was based around Kata, and was meant to promote the idea of no opponent but yourself...

[Hardball]

BUMP, let's revisit this SHOTOKAN system. Is it really that good or that bad? How would it stand up against someone who has crossed trained UFC style? A 5th degree Black Belt in Shotokan; what does he/she know? Is it just new katas with every Dan degree?

Opening Pandoras "Shotokan" Box

[Liquidsnake1500]

hello i was a green belt shotokan in just 4 months, thats 4 belts up from a white and its WACK! cos its unrealistic with them grading test to see if you can do organised katas. as i am a brasilian im angry that i did not know or take up BJJ till i was 17. iam 19 and do muay thai and bJJ and this helps me alot on the streets aswell as the mind. karate took my money away.
mma fighter will easly beat a karate black belt cos the black belt just punched and kicked the air and never trained under unwilling partner

plus BJJ fight to earn belts