What is exactly ninjitsu???

[koto_ryu]

Maybe then...someone could critique his style in a descriptive, detailed, and intelligent fashion as to juxtapose it against other Ninjitsu styles. What is it that makes him a fraud regardless of whether you believe he was in the Kumite or C.I.A. Help me out if you will.

http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15731&highlight=frank+dux

[Bloody Face]

It's the fighting arts that I'm concerned with.

I hate to say this but I still haven't really been convinced. Really I am just looking at this objectively, not a he said/she said internet rumor but I am talking about the system of fighting...all the rest may be lying, it may not be, that is not my buisness nor my interest at all. I could care less if people think he isn't telling the truth in several aspects of his life, whom really does? it's really quite common to exagerate certain elements of life that we have participated in.

What is important to me right now is whether anyone has studied with him in his system, along with experience in other systems as a basis for juxtaposition or analytical observation. I can tell you that there are professional martial artists that have staked their reputation behind backing him as far as people like PauloTocha whom also has been known to have participated in underground fighting events similar to what Frank Dux is claiming, hell, many people could at least attest to the reality of underground fighting, especially intergang fighting, just maybe not at the level of what he has claimed.

It is not in my best interest to defend him as a person, I am just looking for someone whom has trained with him or his associates and can provide insight into what is Dux Ryu, the rest does not interest me at all because it's all in the end, just speculation and assumptions, or if fact, not pertaining to his current level of martial arts teaching.

[koto_ryu]

I hate to say this but I still haven't really been convinced. Really I am just looking at this objectively, not a he said/she said internet rumor but I am talking about the system of fighting...all the rest may be lying, it may not be, that is not my buisness nor my interest at all. I could care less if people think he isn't telling the truth in several aspects of his life, whom really does? it's really quite common to exagerate certain elements of life that we have participated in.

Much of what he says however is a lie, he just says them for the marketing. A good bit of BS in the martial arts world are people claiming similar things he has claimed as well. If you want read all his articles posted in that post and make your own assumption. Read Meet Frank Dux as well. He's almost as bad as CHAK in my book.

[Bloody Face]

Once again, I respect your opinion and his as I do not know him nor whether he is a pathological liar or underestimated, and misunderstood teacher. I also have to add that hearing someone else's opinion of him as a person is helpful as to whether he just might be a respectable personality or not, but, still I am speaking of his fighting or teaching skill... If that cannot be answered then I really will not form an opinion of him other than he might be a disengenuous soul.

Like I said before, it's really the fighting style and teaching ability which I am interested in, and, many people have stated that he is actually quite gifted physically in that regard.

Maybe we could all make a list as to whom might be respectable in Ninjutsu...sound like an idea?

[Hikage]

Maybe we could all make a list as to whom might be respectable in Ninjutsu...sound like an idea?

Interesting idea, unfortunately I don't think it is going to help you. We could compile a list of reputable ninjitsu people but you're going to run into 3 problems.
1) The list will be too short. Most of the big names out there you will not come into contact with and will therefore be of no use to you.

2) The list will be too long. Most of the people you will come into contact with will be 4 - 6th dans who are really only local to a certain area. I actually seem to find a new ninjitsu instructor within an hour of where I leave every 3 months whom I did not know existed before. I do not have time to rate all these, nor have I gone to see any of them. However, to be fair, I'm sure some of them could be included on our "list."

3) Someone will invariably come on here and say "All ninjitsu instructors are crap" just to spam us over.

I think you're origonal idea to get someone from DRN on here, who knows what they're talking about, and stand up for his/her art. I, unfortunately, I as unfamiliar with it as you are, but as a ninjitsu guy am awfully curious.

-Hikage

[Bloody Face]

Nah, I really do not care if someone actually agrees or disagrees with the posters here, or myself...it would just be interesting to hear from someone whom has at least seen the system in action or having attended one of Mr. Dux's classes to give an objective and insightful perspective.

[HtTKar]

I went to their website at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~ninjitsu/ and was amazed to see that they state thier art has been around for more than 2000 years. The main site www.frankdux.com is currently offline. But anyway I found this email address that may be of interest. Since noone here can help you out, maybe you'll have better success by writing directly

Please email ninjitsu@scf.usc.edu if you have any questions about Dux Ryu Ninjitsu. Please know that your messages are not directly sent to Sensei David Silverman or Hanshi Dux, but are actually sent to the USC Dux Ryu Ninjitsu Club. Therefore, your questions and comments will be answered by Sensei David Silverman's more experienced students, most of the time. Questions and comments sent for Hanshi Dux and/or Sensei David Silverman are usually forwarded to them. A reply to your email from them depends on their schedule, since they are very busy. If you do send in any questions or comments for either of these two, please address that to us so that we know it is sent for them. Thank you.

[Cobra_nVidia]

Ninja's suck. Except Ayane and Kasumi of course. Maybe they do suck, too...

[jcmack]

The only thing I know of Frank Dux is from the movie Blood Sport. I can only report what I have heard of him. The concensus from others I have talked to in the Bujinkan concerning this man say that he does not practice traditional ninjutsu. Many regard him in a similar way as with Ashida Kim and Frank Tew. However, I have no evidence to either prove or disprove his credentials as a ninjutsu practitioner, or evaluate the effectiveness of what he teaches. Sorry to be of so little help.

[Bloody Face]

Frank Dux e-mail

This is basically the response of a former associate and current Ninjitsu DOJO owner via e-mail.

"Does he have a good martial arts system? Yes, I think so." When I asked if it is a legitimate form of Ninjitsu, he responded "That depends on whom you ask...it is NOT Japanese Ninjitsu though, more of a combination of many aklectic styles and variations on the theme."

He then goes on to say of how physically ill Mr Dux is at this time and that I or anybody else would be very hard pressed to see him give even a demo anymore...I guess we'll never know.

[sojobow]

Nah, I really do not care if someone actually agrees or disagrees with the posters here, or myself...it would just be interesting to hear from someone whom has at least seen the system in action or having attended one of Mr. Dux's classes to give an objective and insightful perspective.

Currently training in DRN (a few short years). It is an eclectic system and is excellent.

Here is something that may be of interest:

"A little background/history of DRN
(my perspective based on discussions with Dux and my personal experience with this art and others)

DRN started out 25 years ago as a modification of a combination of the form of ninjitsu taught to Dux, the style of jujitsu taught to Dux (the two main traditional MA influences on the system), and his personal experiences. If you had watched a class back then, you would have easily recognized the influences. Overtime, the style has been modified considerably. Although we keep the "ninjitsu" moniker, and inform people that we are derived from Koga ninjitsu, we tell them straight off, if they are looking for traditional "ninjutsu", we are not the place, as they will find very little similarities. We are our own system.

Why Dux does not clear up the controversy about his instructor is between him and his teacher, and although a few know, Sojo isn't one of them. "

The website (and the Frank Dux Forum) is now semi-private. We do invite guest to join in. But we DO NOT discuss the Controversy. We try hard to discuss martial arts.

[Hikage]

Ok, sounds legit. But then so do many things. What do you guys believe about kihon happo? Where do you differ from traditional ninjitsu. What made him decide to take away from an art that has worked well for thousands of years?

-Hikage

[sojobow]

Ok, sounds legit. But then so do many things. What do you guys believe about kihon happo? Where do you differ from traditional ninjitsu. What made him decide to take away from an art that has worked well for thousands of years? -Hikage

Upfront with the point that I've never trained in bujinkan or budo taijutsu. I may have been banned from martialtalk for saying that I believe that the bujinkan style is an eclectic style. The basic eight of kihon happo is supposedly taken from 4 different Ryu. From what i can see in videos i've seen, I basically think they are ok. I do believe the stances in all 8 can be improved upon making the tori even faster and adding more power to the techniques. But again, take my opinions with a grain of salt as I haven't trained in the style. I also don't see them as "Ninjutsu" techniques but only techniques gleaned from the 4 Ryu which are not all "Ninjutsu" Ryu. But the use of the 8 basics is a good way to begin one's study in this artform.

The basic difference in what I can see between traditional ninjutsu and more modern styles is that modern styles no longer concern themselves with studying how the ancient Ninja accomplished their accomplishments (which is Sensei Hatsumi's definition of Ninjutsu). Modern styles basically looked back at the accomplishments of the Ninja, decided what would be of use today and disgarded that which is now perceived as of little modern use.

As far as an art working well for thousands of years, we may be dealing with an opinion here and not reality. My own opinion is that certain elements have pasted the test of time in particular, element having to do with warfare, strategy development, subterfuge, leadership, mystics, etc. The armed and unarmed fighting elements of the ancients have little use today as most of the weapons are obsolete. Not sure the original Ninja put much emphisis on hand-to-hand combat. Hand-to-hand fighting elements may have been added to the system as time passed. Think we still have this Romantization with these secret warriors though.

So, I guess when you say "worked for thousands of years," i would agree in that the system has gone through constant evolution and now probubly doesn't resemble the original system. There are no pure Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Ryu in existance today. Everyone is adding to the mix such that the term is only a moniker. But its fun anyway.

You're welcomed to show me where I'm wrong in the above. The whole subject is a learning process for me.

[koto_ryu]

8 can be improved upon making the tori even faster and adding more power to the techniques.

Still, videos are difficult if not impossible to properly judge an art. I've seen many a WC video that made me say "WTF????" but since I haven't personally encountered it yet, I don't have any negative opinions on it.

Modern styles basically looked back at the accomplishments of the Ninja, decided what would be of use today and disgarded that which is now perceived as of little modern use.

I don't believe that to be entirely true, especially for the Bujinkan. If we were just doing that, why would we still be training with kyoketshu shoges, katanas, yaris, and shukos?

The armed and unarmed fighting elements of the ancients have little use today as most of the weapons are obsolete.

True in some respects (it's doubtful you'll ever have to take a sword off of someone) but the unarmed aspects are still very useful, as many of the armed ones.

Not sure the original Ninja put much emphisis on hand-to-hand combat.

Hand-to-hand training was an integral part of ninjutsu, whether you're going by the traditional eight skills to define ninjutsu or the 18 skills according to the Bujinkan.

There are no pure Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Ryu in existance today. Everyone is adding to the mix such that the term is only a moniker. But its fun anyway.

Well, even during that era, keep in mind ninjutsu was evolving to what they learned, adding in skills as they saw fit (e.g. kayakujutsu).

[sojobow]

Still, videos are difficult if not impossible to properly judge an art. I've seen many a WC video that made me say "WTF????" but since I haven't personally encountered it yet, I don't have any negative opinions on it.

It wasn't until a couple of months ago that I learned from a chinese martial artist the problems with viewing and judging anything using videos. You're correct.

Hand-to-hand training was an integral part of ninjutsu, whether you're going by the traditional eight skills to define ninjutsu or the 18 skills according to the Bujinkan.

What then happens when you've learned, to almost perfection, the eight skills or the 36 skills and the opponent is still better than you and he/she has only half the experience/background?

Well, even during that era, keep in mind ninjutsu was evolving to what they learned, adding in skills as they saw fit (e.g. kayakujutsu).

Seems an impossible task for us and them. Soon as you learn something, that "something" becomes obsolete. Then people come back with if what you learned wasn't taught to you by a Japanese, it's not legit. Then what happens when what you were taught by a Japanese, doesn't work on that same guy/girl who is still better than you? I've always maintained that Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu is just too darn complicated. (Even in casual discourse.)