What is exactly ninjitsu???

[grubbogoppoly]

Where do they say anything about hwa rang do being hapkido. You obviously have only gone to hwa rang do.com website and made blatant assumptions. Yes Joo bang lee was a original founder of hapkido. Who cares? Just because A happens before b does not mean that A caused B. By this logic that you use I could prove that ice cream caused an accident that I got into. I had ice cream on saturday. Sunday I got in an accident. OH MY GOD!! That MUST mean that ice cream caused my accident. By the way, the hwa rang warriors and the martial art are separate entities moron. The art is just based on the concepts, ideals and methodology of these warriors:P. This is what all arts are(with some adaptations of course,such as the code of ethics). Did I say I was a fugging sulsa?

"It is not 2000 years old, it doesn't actually trace any history back to the heydey of classical Korea. Get over it and yourself. And while you're at it try reading up on Korean history, specifically martial history. "
I didn't see you state any history other than the stuff on our web site(blatantly misrepresented I might add).

After all of that being said. .
"That said, its no big deal if people practice made up martial arts. I do. JKD is a recent invention, about 4 decades old now. Does that make it any less effective because of it modernity? No, its probably more effective. Arts that have been "preserved" are likely to have lost touch with reality over hundreds of years."

All the people that have been asking about the art have been asking for "something street effective". I said that this was a good art and you go into your bs about how it is a "adapted art". Well, by your own account then this is an effective art.:P Stupid F*ck

[grubbogoppoly]

HOPLITE: Still haven't gotten an answer from hoplite, SO I will try one more time.
"Be cautious if a style or instructor claims spirituality is important to their martial art. Often they have compromised both their spirituality and martial ability. "
Please explain this quote. I really just want to understand your line of thinking. Do you think that a martial art can not include "spirituality"? I just want a real conversation. Not, anymore more of this my style is better than yours bs.

[grubbogoppoly]

I have a better reply for what ninjutsu is. To answer the original question. .Go to barnes and noble or borders and read a book on it. Such as ninjutsu:history and traditions. Then go and talk to instructors about the art. Instead of listening to all of these people make up your own damn mind. I don't mean to be mean. Just that that is the best way to figure it out. You want to know about ninjutsu? Then why are you asking a bunch of people who don't take or know anything about the art.

[RobertG]

Stupid **** eh?

All right grubby lets break this down for you again.

Joo Bang Lee was teaching Hapkido is Korea (which is a derivative of Japanese martial arts). He was not teaching "Hwarang Do" because no such thing ever existed (according to Korean historical documents). Then Joo Bang Lee watches You Only Live Twice and reads the Destroyer books. He decides that he can make a lot of money off of guilable Americans by modelling a Korean martial art after Ninjitsu and the art of Sinanju (which Remo Williams used in the Destroyer books). He comes to America and teaches Hapkido with some Eastern Medicine, a lot of pseudo spirituality, and stuff ripped straight from ficition. Voila! Now you've got Hwarang Do. Oh yeah, the whole monastery story was ripped off straight from the Kung Fu series as well.

I also said some modern, derivative arts can be effective. Modernity isn't necessarily a strike against you. Dressing up in black and thinking you're Remo Williams is a big strike against you. Does Hwarang Do have some effective stuff in it? Sure. Its basically Hapkido after all. But your weapons techniques make people cringe. Even if the whole story where true, you don't learn to knife fight from a bunch of Buddhist monks (its sort of against their principles to gut people). But since JBL fabricated the knife skills without so much as even consulting the local FMA community in Southern Cal, well, yeah, HD's knife skills look like, well, not realistic.

As for Ninjitsu, yeah, lets all go to the bookstore and read books by people with a financial stake in Ninjitsu. Or we can read scholarly works that you probably have to dig through a major university library for, and therein you will see there is little to no historical support for the existence of Ninja's or Ninjitsu prior to the peaceful Tokugawa era (when they were fabricated by storytellers for entertainment purposes). Duh.

[grubbogoppoly]

Again. .You show NO true understanding of hwa rang do. You say the knife defenses don't work. Why? Uhhhhh, monks. Shows your ignorance. That was just a lot of fluff with NO fact in it what so ever. So, you say they haven't been proven to work or tested. Well, they do. Like I said, we do them with real knives at our school(by the way if you think getting cut in a knive technique is failure then you are wrong. You will get cut if someone has a knife and wants to cut you. It is just minimizing the damage). So here is one question for you. What has been tested?

[jules]

The idea that hwa rang do is the same art that the old Hwa rangs used is utter bullshit. The idea is crap. Sorry that's just the way it is. Why do you think Hwa rang do not widespread in korea? Becuase anyone who claims to be a practioner of the "old hwa rang do" would be laughed at. The last record of anything remotely related to hwa rang do was during the Shilla dynasty which ended during the 900's. ANYONE who claims to know so called "hwa rang do " is talking out of his arse. Tae Kyun? Yes it was used uptill the japanese occupation. Su-Bak? Not likelly. Koong Jung Mu sul? Perhaps becuase it was used by the Royal guards untill the japanese occupation (and perhaps they passed it on to their children). but friggen hwa rang do ? Give me a break.

[grubbogoppoly]

"The art is just based on the concepts, ideals and methodology of these warriors:P. This is what all arts are(with some adaptations of course,such as the code of ethics). Did I say I was a fugging sulsa?"
READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE YOU TALK!!

[grubbogoppoly]

Jules. .In addition:
"Why do you think Hwa rang do not widespread in korea?"
So I guess you live in Korea then?

Or you think that quantity=quality? Why do you think that there is such a bad rep for a lot of martial arts? One reason is anyone can start a dojo/dojang even if they are a bad teacher

[Thai Bri]

Grubby - your Hwa rang Do knife defences only work against a compliant devotee of Hwa Rang Do, ya dip shit.

Perhaps it should be renamed Hwa Rang Don't.

[IPON]

Interesting, Robert G; My understanding was that teh hwa rang were elite force (I guess almost like our special forces) my understanding (please see link) was that people were groomed for teh hwa rang not that is was an option. I think this is basically what you were said

http://www.vanooyen.org/taekwondo/understand_hwa_rang_warriors.html

I think this is the type of like were you have to think and not believe everything you read. While I have never heard anyone state that hwa rang was a direct extension of the techniques of teh original hwa rang this article does.

http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/hwarangdo.htm

Anyway, just trying to get the right story Just curious

[jules]

grubbogoppoly,

Becuase anyone who claims to be a practioner of the "old hwa rang do" would be laughed at.

anyone who claims that they know Hwa Rand do would be laughed at and taken to the local loony bin in korea. They can't pull that bullshit in korea, only in the US.

[grubbogoppoly]

I congratulate jules for being able to quote himself and then paraphrase himself.

[hoplite]

Clarification

Grubbogoppoly,

On September 27, 2003, I stated, “Be cautious if a style or instructor claims spirituality is important to their martial art. Often they have compromised both their spirituality and martial ability.”

The term “spirituality” has often been used with varying definitions of meaning. In the clarification that follows, I would use meanings three and four as given by Merriam-Webster OnLine :

Spirituality entails values that exit independent of the practitioner, and these spiritual values extend beyond the martial arts to influence all aspects of life.

If the practice of a martial art requires training for action contrary to a practitioner’s spiritual values, and the practitioner does not reconcile the contradiction between belief and practice, then the practitioner is compromising their spiritual values.

Also, if a practitioner reconciles a contradiction between their spiritual values and martial practice by reducing the efficacy of their martial art, then the practitioner is compromising their martial ability.

Thus if a style or instructor claims the special importance of spirituality to their martial art, then it is possible their spiritual values or their martial ability has been compromised.

However, I do not imply a style or instructor, that claims spirituality has no part in their martial art, is necessarily more effective.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by IPON
Interesting, Robert G; My understanding was that teh hwa rang were elite force (I guess almost like our special forces) my understanding (please see link) was that people were groomed for teh hwa rang not that is was an option. I think this is basically what you were said

http://www.vanooyen.org/taekwondo/understand_hwa_rang_warriors.html

I think this is the type of like were you have to think and not believe everything you read. While I have never heard anyone state that hwa rang was a direct extension of the techniques of teh original hwa rang this article does.

http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/hwarangdo.htm

Anyway, just trying to get the right story Just curious

The story is this--most people will admit that indigeneous Korean martial arts were pratically extinct, perhaps even prior to Japanese occupation. But, certainly by the time of Japanese occupation there were almost no indigeneous Korean martial arts. There most certainly was not an Hwarang Do. The institution had died out long before. The only people who will not admit this are Hwarang Do people. They would have you believe that monks secretly practiced an art (the scope of which apparently exceeds and is exceedingly different from historical accounts of the Hwarang) for over a thousand years. Then they taught all of it to two brothers. They then let the two brothers leave the monastery and go to Souther California and teach white people--even though they hadn't let it outside the monastery for a thousand years. Oh, and somehow, despite the fact these monks never actually fought anyone outside the monastery, nor even left it, they maintained a superior, realistic fighting art. I could go on and on. And you could believe silly stories or historical fact. Extant Korean martial arts are essentially all derivatives of Japanese martial arts. Those that are not are generally not taught outside of Korea. There is no story to get straight.

There is more evidence for ninjas than there is for authenticity of Hwarang Do--and there isn't very much evidence for ninjas. So there you go.

Grubby is just bitter he's been paying twice as much as any other practioner of Hapkido for several years because they called it Hwarang Do and promised him he could levitate shit and turn invisible with his Sulsa powers.

[platinum_angel]

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