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Bruce Lee and his skill - statements by various people

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  • #31
    Originally posted by KARATEMAN
    what does TOM YUM statements even doing with this conversation
    Im afraid that doesn't make any sense old chap. Didn't they have a basic literary class in the penitentiary you frequented?

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    • #32
      Muse: To think. Amuse: to cease to think. DVD amusement: to allow a DVD to do your brain's job for you... Some culture we live in...

      As I wrote to someone on another discussion about this topic: In other words, Lucid, your testimony about what you saw your instructor do would have to act as someone else's video clip. It would then be a matter of verifying your credibility as a witness (insert jubaji remark here) that of others whose credibility was proven sound and adding to that other means of proving Lee's ability.

      Example of a credible witness who wasn't even there! Why then is this person a credible witness? He is a PROVEN fighter. Someone who DOES KNOW a thing or two about that. One of their KNOWN practices, is that of studying other fighter's movement, body structure, etc., for what it says about an opponent's possible skills, attributes, weakenesses, etc. Of course, that's only a part of winning.

      Check out what this fighter, PROVEN THE WORLD OVER, has to say about Lee, and whom he lumps Lee in with, in light of the question asked of him.

      MMAToday: Are there any fighters you look up to now?
      TO [Tito Ortiz]: Not anyone now currently, but I look at people who put it all together like Ali, Bruce Lee 30 years ago. George St. Pierre and BJ are great fighters. I cant respect anyone in my weight class anymore because I get caught up in watching them and being in awe instead of stomping on them, which is what I need to be doing.

      http://www.ultimate-fighter.ca/Forum...ic.php?id=3915

      Was that on a UFC site - the very venue so many raised on mind-numbing, wouldn't know how to clearly think a thing through any other way, DVDs, claim Lee would have been creamed in? Was that statement made by an actual UFC top dog! Did he say NOT ANYONE NOW CURRENTLY and then lump George St. Pierre and BJ [Peen, who does remind one of Lee] in with Lee? Must be fixed, hunh?

      Here's one I borrowed from someone else:

      Balck Belt Magazine: What’s your favorite martial arts movie?
      Frank Shamrock: It would have to be Enter the Dragon. The philosophy, ideas and energy of it tell a lot about life. It’s truth, and that’s why it’s always going to be there. You see the truth. There may be a lot of story and [filler], but there’s a big piece of truth you can’t run away from.

      http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/567

      Bottom line: Those who so easliy dismiss Lee on THEIR perceived strength of the witness of video clips not only betray their actual ignorance of other means of credible proof used for decades now by law enforcement, courts of law, archeology, ad infinitum, but do so at the expense of what contribution that aspect of Lee's legacy that matters in this regard could contribute to their own martial growth.

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      • #33
        You are making a huge assumption to draw the conclusion that they are talking about his fighting ability, they arent talking about video evidence and Frank said he admired the philosophy behind it.
        Tito didnt actually explain what he admired about those fighters other than they"put it together" which means what? they have character? they can fight?

        Again, we can quote and make as many guesses as we like but thats all we have, guesses. For all i know Bruce Lee was fantastic, but i dont know that, because i know there is a massive gap between being good in a gym and in a film and cutting it in real combat.
        Saying he can fight is an assumption. i think he made a huge mistake in not videoing his fights as you have alot of people asking alot of questions. the most important being why was Bruce so careful to avoid the camera.
        Name one fighter in his league or even close to it that hasnt appeared on film.
        i cant think of any.
        so the question remains, why no video in a time where everyone was on film and bruce even had a video camera and filmed demonstrations and training but never any fights.
        The question remains, you can dig up any vague statement and draw conclucions that you think they are stating but at the end you cant prove he can and i cant prove he cant. and thats where i sit, i wont say he can fight when i dont know he can. thats all.

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        • #34
          again, just a thought.

          maybe he'd be killed by the time he set the camera up?

          heh, we do know many fighters who can fight, and some are people we actually know, but haven't been on film. could be friends, teachers or family.

          but ah, i guess we'd be going round and round.

          anyway, just a question.. does anyone know of any person who's competed successfully with JKD? any names that I could search for? or there's none?

          Comment


          • #35
            Further to a previous post on a thread entitled JKD vs MMA, its a difficult call to make. A number of people from a JKD background have successfully entered the competitive arena, the question is have they taken JKD into their chosen sport, or have they just become good fighters in that sport?

            The immediate person who springs to mind is of course Erik Paulson, legendary MMA fighter and coach, you'll have no problem looking him up.

            Rick Young from Scotland, has won numerous World and Pan Am BJJ titles.

            My friend Neil Mcleod here in the UK, former British Vale Tudo champion, 16 times British Full Contact Stick Champion, 3 times European and 2 times World Champion.

            Shaun Sherk is from a JKD background, trained by Greg Nelson.

            You could go on but the question remains, is this JKD or are these just incredibly talented athletes in their chosen sport? To be frank, I think it is largely the latter, but has their JKD background helped - and I believe yes. Erik always credits his Jun Fan training and all of his many years at the Inosanto Academy in his fights, Rick Young the same. Neil Mcleod is a classic example of really exemplifying JKD in the cage, I've seen Neil use original Jun Fan techniques - just to prove a point! But bless him, he's mad.

            I box, but I don't do "JKD" boxing, I just box. However, have my years of JKD helped me in my boxing training? Yes sir, I wouldn't be there without it.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Ghost View Post
              You are making a huge assumption to draw the conclusion that they are talking about his fighting ability, they arent talking about video evidence and Frank said he admired the philosophy behind it.
              Tito didnt actually explain what he admired about those fighters other than they"put it together" which means what? they have character? they can fight?

              Again, we can quote and make as many guesses as we like but thats all we have, guesses. For all i know Bruce Lee was fantastic, but i dont know that, because i know there is a massive gap between being good in a gym and in a film and cutting it in real combat.
              Saying he can fight is an assumption. i think he made a huge mistake in not videoing his fights as you have alot of people asking alot of questions. the most important being why was Bruce so careful to avoid the camera.
              Name one fighter in his league or even close to it that hasnt appeared on film.
              i cant think of any.
              so the question remains, why no video in a time where everyone was on film and bruce even had a video camera and filmed demonstrations and training but never any fights.
              The question remains, you can dig up any vague statement and draw conclucions that you think they are stating but at the end you cant prove he can and i cant prove he cant. and thats where i sit, i wont say he can fight when i dont know he can. thats all.
              I'd have to disagree with you. One, if you read the entire Frank Shamrock interview, the entire piece, has to do with his life as a fighter and all it's affected. In that context, he was asked:

              What’s your favorite martial arts movie?
              It would have to be Enter the Dragon. The philosophy, ideas and energy of it tell a lot about life. It’s truth, and that’s why it’s always going to be there. You see the truth. There may be a lot of story and [filler], but there’s a big piece of truth you can’t run away from.

              His answer is in the same vein, as the gist of that interview - "the philosophy, ideas and enrgy of it that tell about life...." What life could Frank be talking about then if not about such things as what is really behind Lee's role - that of a warrior, both phylisophically and physically (the energy). I'll give you this much. Te "life is combat" thing.

              True, where both those interviews are concerned, they are open to interpretation much more so then my point. What the heck isn't.

              As for my point, that taken together and honsetly scrutinzed, many things do point to a man of incredible martial skills. Comments by figthers who'd recognize that sort of thing, what video we do have, credible eye-witnesses, etc.

              Still, and here is my second reason for disagreeing with you -even with all that, just as there are scores of people on both sides of any issue, who'd debate, for example, who was the greatest middle-weight boxer to ever set foot in a ring and never settle the matter no many how much film they saw, simply because of how people process things - differenly, you'll always find those who agree with you, along with those who never will.

              Again, when my own curiosity as to Lee's possible fighting skills arises, one that always stands out is that there are other ways to research or prove a thing, other then just a video clip, in it's abscence, I look to that, to a body of things collectively.

              Not to prove how awesome he was a fighter out of some blind, mindless idol worship, but to find out as closely as possible, given the limits imposed by the abscence of video clips (to date), the truth of that matter for myself.

              I find way too few do that. On one side the video clip, unable to appreciate nor seek to find the possibility of some other reason for it's lack, crowd, jump to their conclusions, while on the other, the "well he did not compete, though I can't explain that" crowd jump to theirs.

              The only reason I even stepped forward was because of my firm conviction he was an astounding martial artist of a human being whose legacy can contribute to others in their own pursuit of "truth." Especially when they find out he was more then simply a martial artist but an example of what it means to fall, get up, fall again, yet come back fighting once more. Even if he died from one of those falls.

              Is he alone in that? Why not let's just go off and compare who was greater at overcoming the racism Lee encounterd, while we're comparing whos was better at what? Theres just more in the man than his fighting skill.

              Let's do this. Both of us. For the heck of that. Let's compare what we've both found that is for and or against his having or having not been an astounding martial artist. Again, it does not matter. He's gone. Rest in peace.

              Let's not make it a point of contention, but of research.

              Here, I'll start off. As we go, we can find out the rules for making that possible, if it's there. I mean, perhaps the arguement needs reinvention.

              Personally, Tito's answer for me - his "put it all togther" statement, has to do with his MMA mentality, that a "fighter" is someone who, in his view, is a legend like Lee or Ali, so well rounded in their game that they are worth his looking up to. I know you disagree. But that does not either of us right. Even though Tito is the one who put Lee in the same category as the awesome fighter, Ali.

              As you implied, we'd have to ask Tito. Then again, if he took our call and agreed with me completely, what if Frank did not agree? You see my earlier point?

              We can't go by one or two things, nor would they be conclusive to everyone anyway.

              Take me, for example, I don't bowl. Yet, once, after watching a champion bowler blow everyone away, I went up there and bowled 14 strikes in a row - which I later found out 13 strikes are considered a perfct score! Unfortunatey, out of my own insecurity I waited until no one was around, in case I screwed up!

              I'm the same way, I've at times have had doubts about my ability to defend myself, or no interest in proving myself, yet I've often faired better than I expected when I had no choice but to get in there and duke it out, or was simply fed up with some street bully during some encounter which finally drove me nuts!

              Still, had their been witnesses, the debate would've been, not, "I don't believe it," but "I don't believe you never bowled."

              If you're mearly interested in dis-proving Lee's skill, we may never come to agreement. Just as there are people now who say Jet Li blows Lee away.

              If you're interested in researching the matter; just to get at the truth, then we have that in common and can go from there.

              Here's a clip, for it's visible proof of an amazingly highly developed ability to explode - with power - from a complete stand still and with very little movement. Perhaps we can categorize that aspect of our quest here under, say, "Indicators of Possible Physical Power" or something, as we build our catalog of varrious evidences for, or against Lee as a total martail artist. Here's that clip. I look forward to your feedback:

              http://youtube.com/watch?v=tKFMCwC_iTQ

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
                anyway, just a question.. does anyone know of any person who's competed successfully with JKD? any names that I could search for? or there's none?
                How about Paul Vunak and the SEALs who used to go out on the weekends and fight for real? Thank God Vu is still around to teach.

                JKD's philosophy itself seems to be to take the best of a style to complete your full range of combat. I'd imagine some of the tools can't be used in competition, take eye shots and even when done accidentally in competition take the fight out of a fighter (i.e. Penn vs. Hughes UFC 63).

                Maybe a JKD practitioner could create a competition style, but frankly that's sort of how MMA has evolved on its own.
                Last edited by Tom Yum; 11-08-2007, 12:10 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Michael Wright View Post
                  Further to a previous post on a thread entitled JKD vs MMA, its a difficult call to make. A number of people from a JKD background have successfully entered the competitive arena, the question is have they taken JKD into their chosen sport, or have they just become good fighters in that sport?

                  The immediate person who springs to mind is of course Erik Paulson, legendary MMA fighter and coach, you'll have no problem looking him up.

                  Rick Young from Scotland, has won numerous World and Pan Am BJJ titles.

                  My friend Neil Mcleod here in the UK, former British Vale Tudo champion, 16 times British Full Contact Stick Champion, 3 times European and 2 times World Champion.

                  Shaun Sherk is from a JKD background, trained by Greg Nelson.

                  You could go on but the question remains, is this JKD or are these just incredibly talented athletes in their chosen sport? To be frank, I think it is largely the latter, but has their JKD background helped - and I believe yes. Erik always credits his Jun Fan training and all of his many years at the Inosanto Academy in his fights, Rick Young the same. Neil Mcleod is a classic example of really exemplifying JKD in the cage, I've seen Neil use original Jun Fan techniques - just to prove a point! But bless him, he's mad.

                  I box, but I don't do "JKD" boxing, I just box. However, have my years of JKD helped me in my boxing training? Yes sir, I wouldn't be there without it.
                  Hello Michael, thanks!! Really helpful information..

                  I suppose the training gained through going for JKD sessions would help complement whatever the fighter already possesses. However, just a thought.. do you think a martial artist, without having learnt any other art, like boxing or muay thai, would stand a chance in the ring or outside the ring if he had learnt only JKD?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
                    How about Paul Vunak and the SEALs who used to go out on the weekends and fight for real? Thank God Vu is still around to teach.

                    JKD's philosophy itself seems to be to take the best of a style to complete your full range of combat. I'd imagine some of the tools can't be used in competition, take eye shots and even when done accidentally in competition take the fight out of a fighter (i.e. Penn vs. Hughes UFC 63).

                    Maybe a JKD practitioner could create a competition style, but frankly that's sort of how MMA has evolved on its own.
                    Yes.. pardon my question. Now that I think about it, it was kind of the wrong question to ask. To ask if someone uses "JKD" as a style to compete, wouldn't really be JKD.. :P

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
                      However, just a thought.. do you think a martial artist, without having learnt any other art, like boxing or muay thai, would stand a chance in the ring or outside the ring if he had learnt only JKD?
                      IMO: In the ring, without question to succeed at any real level, you must become a disciple and athlete of the sport you choose. I believe good JKD instruction will offer a base of attributes and strategy. But step into the ring with a Thai Boxer of any quality, or a Boxer of any experience - you will soon find yourself in a different world. A good JKD man fully embraces that world and respects the sport he enters.

                      It is outside of the ring where for me JKD (at least the way I have been taught) comes into it's own. All ranges, with or without weapons, against one or multiple opponents, pressure tested, no rules. This is the way JKD (especially Sifu Paul's PFS) has taught me to fight outside of the ring. It hasn't let me down yet*


                      *I'll probably get jumped by 5 ninjas tonight

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Michael Wright View Post
                        IMO: In the ring, without question to succeed at any real level, you must become a disciple and athlete of the sport you choose. I believe good JKD instruction will offer a base of attributes and strategy. But step into the ring with a Thai Boxer of any quality, or a Boxer of any experience - you will soon find yourself in a different world. A good JKD man fully embraces that world and respects the sport he enters.

                        It is outside of the ring where for me JKD (at least the way I have been taught) comes into it's own. All ranges, with or without weapons, against one or multiple opponents, pressure tested, no rules. This is the way JKD (especially Sifu Paul's PFS) has taught me to fight outside of the ring. It hasn't let me down yet*


                        *I'll probably get jumped by 5 ninjas tonight
                        Thank you. Really helped!

                        I just hope the true lineage of JKD doesn't go missing someday.. but I guess overtime, nothing can be kept in its purest form, nor necessarily beneficial for it to be.

                        And check this guy out. He's better than bruce lee!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXjP8n12ooo&NR=1

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Michael Wright View Post
                          IMO: In the ring, without question to succeed at any real level, you must become a disciple and athlete of the sport you choose. I believe good JKD instruction will offer a base of attributes and strategy. But step into the ring with a Thai Boxer of any quality, or a Boxer of any experience - you will soon find yourself in a different world. A good JKD man fully embraces that world and respects the sport he enters.

                          It is outside of the ring where for me JKD (at least the way I have been taught) comes into it's own. All ranges, with or without weapons, against one or multiple opponents, pressure tested, no rules. This is the way JKD (especially Sifu Paul's PFS) has taught me to fight outside of the ring. It hasn't let me down yet*


                          *I'll probably get jumped by 5 ninjas tonight
                          I like this answer!

                          I have to tell you, I'm very impressed with Panatukan, I sincerely believe that one day I can use Panatukan in *my* own way of fighting.

                          However, let me ask you a question, I am questioning in my own mind the practicality or effectiveness of "trapping" as done in the way Bruce Lee taught (which I think comes from Wing Chung), have you ever used "trapping" in real life? How in gods name would anyone ever use "trapping" successfully against a western boxer?

                          I'm only asking - just because I don't comprehend something doesn't mean it doesn't or can't work.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            This answer will be further to a million posts on this topic sir, this question is an old friend for us all To answer your question correctly I'm not going to dick around with the definition of trapping, it means different things to different people, but I know what you are asking.

                            Does trapping work in a fight i.e. ring or street? My answer is, and has been for years - I couldn't care a less.

                            In an altercation outside of the ring, trapping would never, ever be a primary consideration for me. I have a small arsenal of simple techniques, coupled with a strategy and mentality when it comes to dealing with real violence. Trapping just isn't in there, so I stopped worrying about it's effectiveness in a real fight a long time ago. Does it work in the ring, against a good boxer? Why would you want it to or even try to prove that point? I get in the ring to box, not to trap, I'm there to knock him out - thats what boxing is about. So does it work in the ring? Couldn't care a less.

                            So what is the purpose of trapping? Its like anything else in JKD, its the purpose you find in your own journey. If you can make it work in the street or in the ring then more power to you, its just not something I feel the need to do. So what do I get out of trapping? Its great fun, it looks cool, and its a break from getting punched in the face. Thats good enough for me

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Michael Wright View Post
                              This answer will be further to a million posts on this topic sir, this question is an old friend for us all. To answer your question correctly I'm not going to dick around with the definition of trapping, it means different things to different people, but I know what you are asking.

                              Does trapping work in a fight i.e. ring or street? My answer is, and has been for years - I couldn't care a less.

                              In an altercation outside of the ring, trapping would never, ever be a primary consideration for me. I have a small arsenal of simple techniques, coupled with a strategy and mentality when it comes to dealing with real violence. Trapping just isn't in there, so I stopped worrying about it's effectiveness in a real fight a long time ago. Does it work in the ring, against a good boxer? Why would you want it to or even try to prove that point? I get in the ring to box, not to trap, I'm there to knock him out - thats what boxing is about. So does it work in the ring? Couldn't care a less.

                              So what is the purpose of trapping? Its like anything else in JKD, its the purpose you find in your own journey. If you can make it work in the street or in the ring then more power to you, its just not something I feel the need to do. So what do I get out of trapping? Its great fun, it looks cool, and its a break from getting punched in the face. Thats good enough for me
                              Hey thanks for the reply, Michael.

                              You can stop calling me sir though. I appreciate you extending respect to other people - myself included - but you're much more experienced than I am, plus I'm not your student, and better yet if anyone should be calling anyone sir it should be me to you. lol.

                              Regarding my question about attempting "trapping" against the boxer though, I was meaning to imply *outside the ring.* So in other words in a real bare knuckles fight on the street against a person trained in western boxing.

                              I've got enough experience in boxing to know "trapping" wouldn't be practical inside the square ring of boxing given the nature of things.

                              Honestly, I haven't yet read some of the required reading on Bruce Lee that my Sifu requires. I bring that up because being very new to JKD (and to some extent martial arts in general [but not quite]) I feel a bit lost at times; like swimming in a big, vast, ocean where I see no land in any direction in which I look. I think I pretty much can distinguish between JKD concepts and Jun Fan techniques now but then I'm still sometimes confused as to where Jun Fan begins or ends and Kali/Escrima etc begins or ends. And then when you add something like the class room *practice* of "trapping" (where two students place their forearms against the others) I'm not sure how much of that Jun Fan technique is *pure* technique or actually part *concept* itself that is not meant to be replicated in a literal way in real engagements (such as the positioning of the forearms).

                              Like I said... I feel a bit lost at times.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Hey, when I get my knighthood you can call me sir, and lets face it "Knuckles & Knees" is a bit of a mouthful!

                                I see your point about fighting the boxer outside of the ring. My answer to that? Don't. We are good guys, just calm us down and buy us a beer

                                Seriously, I hear you about feeling lost sometimes. Do you know what that tells me? That you have a good teacher. That may sound like a contradiction, but good JKD instruction raises more questions than it answers, because it encourages the individual to find their own path. If you ever walk into a JKD school where everyone moves the same, thinks the same, and follows blind a path dictated by their teacher - then walk out because you haven't found JKD. The study of JKD should be about problem solving and having to find the solutions for yourself, thats how you become a smart martial artist who can flow and adapt.

                                Just be patient and remember the best phrase that anyone ever said to me about martial arts: "Those that do, know. Those that don't do, don't know."

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