Originally posted by Mike Brewer
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Originally posted by Liberty View PostJust purchased John Little's, "Jeet Kune Do" book "by Bruce Lee," and Teri Tom's, "The Straight Lead." While reading sections here and there, I ran accross the following and thought I'd post it. It sheds further light on just what is going on in that clip of Lee on the heavy bag; but more importantly helps drive home an important point.
Bruce Lee: "The stop thrust is designed to score a hit in the midst of the attacker's action." Jeet Kune Do, pg 94.
"You'll find a variation of the straight lead in the straight blast, which is a succession of straight right and straight left blows. In this case, Bruce is throwing a straight blast at the heavy bag. The punch is delivered from a low line, making it close to being a shovel hook. What I want you to notice in this example is the weight transfer. All three directions of force are accounted for here. There is rotation at the hips. With each punch he is also pushing off with tremendous ground reaction force. Finally, he is sending his weight toward the bag by hitting through it." pg 179, 'The Straight Lead," by Teri Tom ("over 1,000 hours in private study with Ted Wong."
Lee working out on that heavy bag:
Razor Ruddock: "It was invented because I needed it. I realized that I have in front of me a with very strong guy defense, and I have to penetrate that armor. That I have to invent something because the traditional punches are not working... He has his hands up, protecting his chin; I need to go up between them... What happens is, you leave yourself open, so that someone opens theirself up to try and get you (JKD's ABD -Attack By Drawing). And as soon as you step back - he's walking towards you to attack you - you leap in at the same time and catch him... The power came from the legs, and the waist in a twisting motion. You have to synchronize it together so it flows smoothly."
Razor and his stop-hit (The Smash)
My point in revisiting this issue is what I've always maintained - that because there is solid, concrete, verifiable evidence in what little we do have on Lee that he was an astounding martial artist even now years ahead of his time, available to anyone willing to do the homework, those who do stand to learn something towards there own martial improvement.
"Even if you're on the right track with a good instructor, you should still be spending hours with those clips of Lee. Watch them. Analyze them. Remember them. The answers are there." - "The Straight Lead," p. 184
Again, though, to each his own...
See you keep doing this, the smash has got absolutely nothing to do with the straight lead.
Forget about the smash, its some marketing crap boxers like to do to pretend they have really done something new to try and sell a product.
Same with the straight lead, load of pants. punches are punches, you can wrap them up and sugar coat them and do whatever you want but there is nothing new.
The idea of drawing someone in and then hitting them is part of attacking whilst retreating, attacking in defense and counter punching. its just normal in boxing and has been around for years befoer lee was born.
You seem to think hes doing, and razor is doing something really amazing. its not its just being wrapped up to make you think it is. In boxing these things are just normal.Leave a comment:
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I think I'll spend my time with a boxing coach, and a sparring partner, and training the heavy bag, instead. You know, the same thing Bruce did? In developing his own straight lead?
I'm pretty sure Bruce didn't develop an awesome straight lead by watching his own movies for hours and hours.
Call it a hunch.
But I'd say, from hours of study of Tao of Jeet Kune Do, my conclusion would be he developed it working with boxers.
Not by watching his movies.Attached FilesLeave a comment:
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The Evidence of Credible Witness
Just purchased John Little's, "Jeet Kune Do" book "by Bruce Lee," and Teri Tom's, "The Straight Lead." While reading sections here and there, I ran accross the following and thought I'd post it. It sheds further light on just what is going on in that clip of Lee on the heavy bag; but more importantly helps drive home an important point.
Bruce Lee: "The stop thrust is designed to score a hit in the midst of the attacker's action." Jeet Kune Do, pg 94.
"You'll find a variation of the straight lead in the straight blast, which is a succession of straight right and straight left blows. In this case, Bruce is throwing a straight blast at the heavy bag. The punch is delivered from a low line, making it close to being a shovel hook. What I want you to notice in this example is the weight transfer. All three directions of force are accounted for here. There is rotation at the hips. With each punch he is also pushing off with tremendous ground reaction force. Finally, he is sending his weight toward the bag by hitting through it." pg 179, 'The Straight Lead," by Teri Tom ("over 1,000 hours in private study with Ted Wong."
Lee working out on that heavy bag:
Razor Ruddock: "It was invented because I needed it. I realized that I have in front of me a with very strong guy defense, and I have to penetrate that armor. That I have to invent something because the traditional punches are not working... He has his hands up, protecting his chin; I need to go up between them... What happens is, you leave yourself open, so that someone opens theirself up to try and get you (JKD's ABD -Attack By Drawing). And as soon as you step back - he's walking towards you to attack you - you leap in at the same time and catch him... The power came from the legs, and the waist in a twisting motion. You have to synchronize it together so it flows smoothly."
Razor and his stop-hit (The Smash)
My point in revisiting this issue is what I've always maintained - that because there is solid, concrete, verifiable evidence in what little we do have on Lee that he was an astounding martial artist even now years ahead of his time, available to anyone willing to do the homework, those who do stand to learn something towards there own martial improvement.
"Even if you're on the right track with a good instructor, you should still be spending hours with those clips of Lee. Watch them. Analyze them. Remember them. The answers are there." - "The Straight Lead," p. 184
Again, though, to each his own...Leave a comment:
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[QUOTE=Liberty;284910]yeah, knuckles hurt! during a few fights, even when punches didn't fully connect, it hurt.Originally posted by lucidmist View Post...I used gloves before...but not as damaging as without gloves. I could hit the person away, but couldn't give him enough pain in his forehead or nose or chin or anywhere for that matter...
... for your age, you're very well-researched....James Demile, or Taky, or many others...mentioned Bruce could fight because they've either tested him or seen him in fights... QUOTE]
On your...
Point 1: Bare knuckle issues - There's something unique to smashing someone's one's cheek-bone bare knuckle (as well as having yours smashed - God does that hurt!). The build-up of pain, shock, heart-rate, fatigue, is much faster; leading one to a greater susceptibility to being knocked out than with gloves. I once had a guy in a headlock when he turned his head and bit me. The distraction and stress such pain can lead to is something to experience - it really shows you what you're made up. Not to mention the distruction it can distract you into being prey to!
On another occasion, while sparring with an older guy, I finger jabbed at his eyes. He caught my fingers in his mouth and bit the hell out of them! Fire alarms went off in my head, panic, aggression, and so forth! And he would not let go! Until I grabbed his nuts....
Later, we both sat there; laughing, dissecting what was what. Me holding my fingers, he holding his nuts! Out of breath just from that. We both concluded that, had this been real, with no rules whatsoever, the road to knock out, pass out, or worse for one of us, would not've been that far away.
Point 2: Regarding my being well researched, I don't know about that. I'm often as frustrated as I am curious about what I still don't know... Still, I rember this quote fom that account of Lee's Hong Kong boxing match: "Before he left, he (Lee at 17-18) showed me some typewritten notes on Wing Chun he had prepared himself. My only recollections are of the faulty English, some reference to the traditional history of Wing Chun, and a misspelling of 'Wing Chuin'".
Point 3: Those who experienced Lee's skill firsthand - Check out the very end of this clip - Taky's expression; as if saying to himself something along the way of, "This m4ther f3_ker; he's doing it again - I just cannot score on him!"
This once again points out to me that Lee's sparring demos were not the "come at me politely, so I can I look awesome," everyone all over the internet engages in. That not only was he that good - able to maintain beautiful form while free-sparrring - but not afraid to encounter the uncertainty of possibly being scored on in public . This is evident in any of his sparring demos.
Come to think of it, that's not so much well-researched as it is keeping my eyes open for things - where he is week/strong/more advanced then at some other stage, and so forth. What I can learn from, etc.
It's really a shame he has detractors who are themselves martial artists. For there is so much there we can learn from....
and yeah, i'd rather choose to believe the old-timers who knew him. also, please, continue to always keep your eyes open for the good stuff.
thanks!
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Re: JKD Trapping
See also:
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PB – From my limited experience, the process of trapping is only necessary as a means to clear an obstruction to hit. Do you think Bruce had got so fast at this point no one could block him anyway thereby negating the need to trap?Originally posted by Knuckles&Knees View Post
TK (Tay Kimura; early Lee student) – Well I think that has a great deal of truth to it, Paul. I think that he developed the structure of 5 ways of attack coupled with the 4 ranges of combat and he discovered that there is only a fleeting moment when you can use any one thing as you change the distance between you and your opponent. I think that Bruce developed a greater sense of mobility and footwork at that time and I think that put everything in balance then, rather than over-emphasising any one aspect of fighting.
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[QUOTE=lucidmist;284891]...I used gloves before...but not as damaging as without gloves. I could hit the person away, but couldn't give him enough pain in his forehead or nose or chin or anywhere for that matter...
... for your age, you're very well-researched....James Demile, or Taky, or many others...mentioned Bruce could fight because they've either tested him or seen him in fights... QUOTE]
On your...
Point 1: Bare knuckle issues - There's something unique to smashing someone's one's cheek-bone bare knuckle (as well as having yours smashed - God does that hurt!). The build-up of pain, shock, heart-rate, fatigue, is much faster; leading one to a greater susceptibility to being knocked out than with gloves. I once had a guy in a headlock when he turned his head and bit me. The distraction and stress such pain can lead to is something to experience - it really shows you what you're made up. Not to mention the distruction it can distract you into being prey to!
On another occasion, while sparring with an older guy, I finger jabbed at his eyes. He caught my fingers in his mouth and bit the hell out of them! Fire alarms went off in my head, panic, aggression, and so forth! And he would not let go! Until I grabbed his nuts....
Later, we both sat there; laughing, dissecting what was what. Me holding my fingers, he holding his nuts! Out of breath just from that. We both concluded that, had this been real, with no rules whatsoever, the road to knock out, pass out, or worse for one of us, would not've been that far away.
Point 2: Regarding my being well researched, I don't know about that. I'm often as frustrated as I am curious about what I still don't know... Still, I rember this quote fom that account of Lee's Hong Kong boxing match: "Before he left, he (Lee at 17-18) showed me some typewritten notes on Wing Chun he had prepared himself. My only recollections are of the faulty English, some reference to the traditional history of Wing Chun, and a misspelling of 'Wing Chuin'".
Point 3: Those who experienced Lee's skill firsthand - Check out the very end of this clip - Taky's expression; as if saying to himself something along the way of, "This m4ther f3_ker; he's doing it again - I just cannot score on him!"
This once again points out to me that Lee's sparring demos were not the "come at me politely, so I can I look awesome," everyone all over the internet engages in. That not only was he that good - able to maintain beautiful form while free-sparrring - but not afraid to encounter the uncertainty of possibly being scored on in public . This is evident in any of his sparring demos.
Come to think of it, that's not so much well-researched as it is keeping my eyes open for things - where he is week/strong/more advanced then at some other stage, and so forth. What I can learn from, etc.
It's really a shame he has detractors who are themselves martial artists. For there is so much there we can learn from....Leave a comment:
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Although I'm sure the Clay (Ali) of 18 or so (born 1-17-42) would've dusted the Lee of that age, you're comparing that Lee, at 17 -18, rather then the Lee of, say, about the last 8 years before his death (Rip). The Lee who was so obssessed with Ali (as to what he might pick up) that he was said to spend entire days playing Ali films against a mirror (so they'd reflect back southpaw, as Lee preferred), while moving with Ali; impersonating him, reacting Ali's reactions, and so forth. This role "modeling," being as, when done right, results in the same neuro-transmissions in the modeler as it does the model, could not but allow Lee access into Ali's mind! If you've ever been so caught up while watching a boxing match that you flinched as "the other guy" shot out a strike, you alreadey have an idea firsthand of the extent of Lee's genius in at coming up with ways to increase his every weapons (mind and body) like no other individual ever documented.Originally posted by lucidmist View Post
There is now a world recognized science based on that type of modeling Lee was doing before it's founders were even exposed to half the things that led them to their coding of it! And their was a guy in the thirties doing similar research who did not even know what he'd stumbled onto!
As one of Lee's students once noted - "Bruce has not been overestimated; on the contrary, he's been underestimated."
His detractors don't know any of this stuff. It's what happens when you write off someone like that prematurely.
They cannot see what I have just laid out here. Don't want to. For whatever reason. And, honestly, that's cool. Their loss, but nevertheless, cool.
To quote Tito; regardless of who sees it otherwise (that's cool); "Lee..put it all together."
By the way, here's a clip of Cassius Clay (Ali) - what a work of art he was in the ring... try to follow him as if you in his shoes; see what information that gives you. I find you can even do that in your mind. Because your mind, unless directed to do so, does know the difference between real and imaginary. Any nightmare will cnfirm this. Enjoy.
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You are forgeting that Bruce was just a high school student at the time. I do not think that anyone has sugested that a high school student could take out the world champLeave a comment:
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Actually, padding in boxing gloves DOES absorb away much of the hurt and force than punching with the fist itself. I used gloves before, and yes, they added weight to my fists, giving it a bigger push when punching, but not as damaging as without gloves. I could hit the person away, but couldn't give him enough pain in his forehead or nose or chin or anywhere for that matter. Well, maybe I lack serious power, but I really believe gloves hinder. However, I'm not sure if it's cos the gloves were a little loose. They were worn out pairs shared by all students (my hands stunk like hell after every use).Originally posted by Ghost View Post
Liberty, THANKS again, for the awesome post. But you're right, no one can agree on everything.. however, for your age, you're very well-researched. But I guess on Bruce Lee's fighting ability, no matter how much research we can throw out, there will always be people talking against it. They'll illustrate bits here and there to discount Bruce Lee, but you'll see that seldom they can dissect the statements of the people giving the accounts. Like James Demile, or Taky, or many others who've mentioned Bruce could fight because they've either tested him or seen him in fights, unless someone dares to come out and openly call these masters liars, I'll choose to believe these old-timers who knew Bruce personally.
But one other thing.. just a thought. If the HK tournament thing was true, about Bruce Lee being unable to knock Elms out until the third round, then Bruce would have had serious trouble beating Ali, Don't get me wrong. I STILL believe Bruce could fight, and fight very well too, but if we compare Ali to Gary Elms... you know what I mean?Leave a comment:
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Yes and no. Yes, Rudduck's is a left uppercut/left hook. But no he does not always go in and out fast, but rather linngers it there a moment, as Lee does his in the work out. Same principle as a side thrust kick, etc. Further, in the second clip, the striker does just the opposite of what you have described - he slams his strike out, momentarily leaving it out; knocking the individual out cold. Yes, it's a street encounter, and so forth. It's also JKD essence. No, I'm not saying the guy is a JKD guy, other than in that moment.Originally posted by Ghost View Post
Anyway, have it your way. That's cool, really. We can't always see eye to eye. Sort of like debating who was the greatest boxer of all time. Not everyone, even amongst skilled boxers, will agree it was Sugar Ray Robinson, for example (my personal pick). Sort of like debating anything, for that matter.Leave a comment:
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Liberty,
I enjoyed your 11:08 PM post. I had not seen the description of the HK boxing matches before.
Thank youLeave a comment:
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