Bruce Lee and his skill - statements by various people

[lucidmist]

Further to a previous post on a thread entitled JKD vs MMA, its a difficult call to make. A number of people from a JKD background have successfully entered the competitive arena, the question is have they taken JKD into their chosen sport, or have they just become good fighters in that sport?

The immediate person who springs to mind is of course Erik Paulson, legendary MMA fighter and coach, you'll have no problem looking him up.

Rick Young from Scotland, has won numerous World and Pan Am BJJ titles.

My friend Neil Mcleod here in the UK, former British Vale Tudo champion, 16 times British Full Contact Stick Champion, 3 times European and 2 times World Champion.

Shaun Sherk is from a JKD background, trained by Greg Nelson.

You could go on but the question remains, is this JKD or are these just incredibly talented athletes in their chosen sport? To be frank, I think it is largely the latter, but has their JKD background helped - and I believe yes. Erik always credits his Jun Fan training and all of his many years at the Inosanto Academy in his fights, Rick Young the same. Neil Mcleod is a classic example of really exemplifying JKD in the cage, I've seen Neil use original Jun Fan techniques - just to prove a point! But bless him, he's mad.

I box, but I don't do "JKD" boxing, I just box. However, have my years of JKD helped me in my boxing training? Yes sir, I wouldn't be there without it.

Hello Michael, thanks!! Really helpful information..

I suppose the training gained through going for JKD sessions would help complement whatever the fighter already possesses. However, just a thought.. do you think a martial artist, without having learnt any other art, like boxing or muay thai, would stand a chance in the ring or outside the ring if he had learnt only JKD?

[Tom Yum]

anyway, just a question.. does anyone know of any person who's competed successfully with JKD? any names that I could search for? or there's none?

How about Paul Vunak and the SEALs who used to go out on the weekends and fight for real? Thank God Vu is still around to teach.

JKD's philosophy itself seems to be to take the best of a style to complete your full range of combat. I'd imagine some of the tools can't be used in competition, take eye shots and even when done accidentally in competition take the fight out of a fighter (i.e. Penn vs. Hughes UFC 63).

Maybe a JKD practitioner could create a competition style, but frankly that's sort of how MMA has evolved on its own.

[Liberty]

You are making a huge assumption to draw the conclusion that they are talking about his fighting ability, they arent talking about video evidence and Frank said he admired the philosophy behind it.
Tito didnt actually explain what he admired about those fighters other than they"put it together" which means what? they have character? they can fight?

Again, we can quote and make as many guesses as we like but thats all we have, guesses. For all i know Bruce Lee was fantastic, but i dont know that, because i know there is a massive gap between being good in a gym and in a film and cutting it in real combat.
Saying he can fight is an assumption. i think he made a huge mistake in not videoing his fights as you have alot of people asking alot of questions. the most important being why was Bruce so careful to avoid the camera.
Name one fighter in his league or even close to it that hasnt appeared on film.
i cant think of any.
so the question remains, why no video in a time where everyone was on film and bruce even had a video camera and filmed demonstrations and training but never any fights.
The question remains, you can dig up any vague statement and draw conclucions that you think they are stating but at the end you cant prove he can and i cant prove he cant. and thats where i sit, i wont say he can fight when i dont know he can. thats all.

I'd have to disagree with you. One, if you read the entire Frank Shamrock interview, the entire piece, has to do with his life as a fighter and all it's affected. In that context, he was asked:

What’s your favorite martial arts movie?
It would have to be Enter the Dragon. The philosophy, ideas and energy of it tell a lot about life. It’s truth, and that’s why it’s always going to be there. You see the truth. There may be a lot of story and [filler], but there’s a big piece of truth you can’t run away from.

His answer is in the same vein, as the gist of that interview - "the philosophy, ideas and enrgy of it that tell about life...." What life could Frank be talking about then if not about such things as what is really behind Lee's role - that of a warrior, both phylisophically and physically (the energy). I'll give you this much. Te "life is combat" thing.

True, where both those interviews are concerned, they are open to interpretation much more so then my point. What the heck isn't.

As for my point, that taken together and honsetly scrutinzed, many things do point to a man of incredible martial skills. Comments by figthers who'd recognize that sort of thing, what video we do have, credible eye-witnesses, etc.

Still, and here is my second reason for disagreeing with you -even with all that, just as there are scores of people on both sides of any issue, who'd debate, for example, who was the greatest middle-weight boxer to ever set foot in a ring and never settle the matter no many how much film they saw, simply because of how people process things - differenly, you'll always find those who agree with you, along with those who never will.

Again, when my own curiosity as to Lee's possible fighting skills arises, one that always stands out is that there are other ways to research or prove a thing, other then just a video clip, in it's abscence, I look to that, to a body of things collectively.

Not to prove how awesome he was a fighter out of some blind, mindless idol worship, but to find out as closely as possible, given the limits imposed by the abscence of video clips (to date), the truth of that matter for myself.

I find way too few do that. On one side the video clip, unable to appreciate nor seek to find the possibility of some other reason for it's lack, crowd, jump to their conclusions, while on the other, the "well he did not compete, though I can't explain that" crowd jump to theirs.

The only reason I even stepped forward was because of my firm conviction he was an astounding martial artist of a human being whose legacy can contribute to others in their own pursuit of "truth." Especially when they find out he was more then simply a martial artist but an example of what it means to fall, get up, fall again, yet come back fighting once more. Even if he died from one of those falls.

Is he alone in that? Why not let's just go off and compare who was greater at overcoming the racism Lee encounterd, while we're comparing whos was better at what? Theres just more in the man than his fighting skill.

Let's do this. Both of us. For the heck of that. Let's compare what we've both found that is for and or against his having or having not been an astounding martial artist. Again, it does not matter. He's gone. Rest in peace.

Let's not make it a point of contention, but of research.

Here, I'll start off. As we go, we can find out the rules for making that possible, if it's there. I mean, perhaps the arguement needs reinvention.

Personally, Tito's answer for me - his "put it all togther" statement, has to do with his MMA mentality, that a "fighter" is someone who, in his view, is a legend like Lee or Ali, so well rounded in their game that they are worth his looking up to. I know you disagree. But that does not either of us right. Even though Tito is the one who put Lee in the same category as the awesome fighter, Ali.

As you implied, we'd have to ask Tito. Then again, if he took our call and agreed with me completely, what if Frank did not agree? You see my earlier point?

We can't go by one or two things, nor would they be conclusive to everyone anyway.

Take me, for example, I don't bowl. Yet, once, after watching a champion bowler blow everyone away, I went up there and bowled 14 strikes in a row - which I later found out 13 strikes are considered a perfct score! Unfortunatey, out of my own insecurity I waited until no one was around, in case I screwed up!

I'm the same way, I've at times have had doubts about my ability to defend myself, or no interest in proving myself, yet I've often faired better than I expected when I had no choice but to get in there and duke it out, or was simply fed up with some street bully during some encounter which finally drove me nuts!

Still, had their been witnesses, the debate would've been, not, "I don't believe it," but "I don't believe you never bowled."

If you're mearly interested in dis-proving Lee's skill, we may never come to agreement. Just as there are people now who say Jet Li blows Lee away.

If you're interested in researching the matter; just to get at the truth, then we have that in common and can go from there.

Here's a clip, for it's visible proof of an amazingly highly developed ability to explode - with power - from a complete stand still and with very little movement. Perhaps we can categorize that aspect of our quest here under, say, "Indicators of Possible Physical Power" or something, as we build our catalog of varrious evidences for, or against Lee as a total martail artist. Here's that clip. I look forward to your feedback:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tKFMCwC_iTQ

Further to a previous post on a thread entitled JKD vs MMA, its a difficult call to make. A number of people from a JKD background have successfully entered the competitive arena, the question is have they taken JKD into their chosen sport, or have they just become good fighters in that sport?

The immediate person who springs to mind is of course Erik Paulson, legendary MMA fighter and coach, you'll have no problem looking him up.

Rick Young from Scotland, has won numerous World and Pan Am BJJ titles.

My friend Neil Mcleod here in the UK, former British Vale Tudo champion, 16 times British Full Contact Stick Champion, 3 times European and 2 times World Champion.

Shaun Sherk is from a JKD background, trained by Greg Nelson.

You could go on but the question remains, is this JKD or are these just incredibly talented athletes in their chosen sport? To be frank, I think it is largely the latter, but has their JKD background helped - and I believe yes. Erik always credits his Jun Fan training and all of his many years at the Inosanto Academy in his fights, Rick Young the same. Neil Mcleod is a classic example of really exemplifying JKD in the cage, I've seen Neil use original Jun Fan techniques - just to prove a point! But bless him, he's mad.

I box, but I don't do "JKD" boxing, I just box. However, have my years of JKD helped me in my boxing training? Yes sir, I wouldn't be there without it.

[lucidmist]

again, just a thought.

maybe he'd be killed by the time he set the camera up?

heh, we do know many fighters who can fight, and some are people we actually know, but haven't been on film. could be friends, teachers or family.

but ah, i guess we'd be going round and round.

anyway, just a question.. does anyone know of any person who's competed successfully with JKD? any names that I could search for? or there's none?

[Ghost]

You are making a huge assumption to draw the conclusion that they are talking about his fighting ability, they arent talking about video evidence and Frank said he admired the philosophy behind it.
Tito didnt actually explain what he admired about those fighters other than they"put it together" which means what? they have character? they can fight?

Again, we can quote and make as many guesses as we like but thats all we have, guesses. For all i know Bruce Lee was fantastic, but i dont know that, because i know there is a massive gap between being good in a gym and in a film and cutting it in real combat.
Saying he can fight is an assumption. i think he made a huge mistake in not videoing his fights as you have alot of people asking alot of questions. the most important being why was Bruce so careful to avoid the camera.
Name one fighter in his league or even close to it that hasnt appeared on film.
i cant think of any.
so the question remains, why no video in a time where everyone was on film and bruce even had a video camera and filmed demonstrations and training but never any fights.
The question remains, you can dig up any vague statement and draw conclucions that you think they are stating but at the end you cant prove he can and i cant prove he cant. and thats where i sit, i wont say he can fight when i dont know he can. thats all.

[Liberty]

Muse: To think. Amuse: to cease to think. DVD amusement: to allow a DVD to do your brain's job for you... Some culture we live in...

As I wrote to someone on another discussion about this topic: In other words, Lucid, your testimony about what you saw your instructor do would have to act as someone else's video clip. It would then be a matter of verifying your credibility as a witness (insert jubaji remark here) that of others whose credibility was proven sound and adding to that other means of proving Lee's ability.

Example of a credible witness who wasn't even there! Why then is this person a credible witness? He is a PROVEN fighter. Someone who DOES KNOW a thing or two about that. One of their KNOWN practices, is that of studying other fighter's movement, body structure, etc., for what it says about an opponent's possible skills, attributes, weakenesses, etc. Of course, that's only a part of winning.

Check out what this fighter, PROVEN THE WORLD OVER, has to say about Lee, and whom he lumps Lee in with, in light of the question asked of him.

MMAToday: Are there any fighters you look up to now?
TO [Tito Ortiz]: Not anyone now currently, but I look at people who put it all together like Ali, Bruce Lee 30 years ago. George St. Pierre and BJ are great fighters. I cant respect anyone in my weight class anymore because I get caught up in watching them and being in awe instead of stomping on them, which is what I need to be doing.

http://www.ultimate-fighter.ca/Forum/viewtopic.php?id=3915

Was that on a UFC site - the very venue so many raised on mind-numbing, wouldn't know how to clearly think a thing through any other way, DVDs, claim Lee would have been creamed in? Was that statement made by an actual UFC top dog! Did he say NOT ANYONE NOW CURRENTLY and then lump George St. Pierre and BJ [Peen, who does remind one of Lee] in with Lee? Must be fixed, hunh?

Here's one I borrowed from someone else:

Balck Belt Magazine: What’s your favorite martial arts movie?
Frank Shamrock: It would have to be Enter the Dragon. The philosophy, ideas and energy of it tell a lot about life. It’s truth, and that’s why it’s always going to be there. You see the truth. There may be a lot of story and [filler], but there’s a big piece of truth you can’t run away from.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/567

Bottom line: Those who so easliy dismiss Lee on THEIR perceived strength of the witness of video clips not only betray their actual ignorance of other means of credible proof used for decades now by law enforcement, courts of law, archeology, ad infinitum, but do so at the expense of what contribution that aspect of Lee's legacy that matters in this regard could contribute to their own martial growth.

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by KARATEMAN
what does TOM YUM statements even doing with this conversation

Im afraid that doesn't make any sense old chap. Didn't they have a basic literary class in the penitentiary you frequented?

[KARATEMAN]

what does TOM YUM statements even doing with this conversation

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by KARATEMAN
this forum is about what bruce lee was like by being described by people who knew him and I think it is very interesting I think thai bri is just an angry person looking to start a fight with anyone who says anthing good about bruce lee

I'm a fan of Bruce Lee. But I don't like religeous type zealots who believe all kinds of shite.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by adacas
I must correct Crusader on one fact...
You do not want me as a role model. You don't want to be like me. I will get you into trouble and you will hate me for it. Don't be like me and waist your life on civil engineering majors computers and pay per view porn. You can be so much better. Thai Bri is such a better role model than me.

Did you know that total industry revenues for pornographic movies is enough to fill every American household with 3 movies?

Disturbing thought.

[Tom Yum]

I think KARATEMAN has big bountiful man breasts and a 70's pornstar moustache with cheap sunglasses...jk

[KARATEMAN]

this forum is about what bruce lee was like by being described by people who knew him and I think it is very interesting I think thai bri is just an angry person looking to start a fight with anyone who says anthing good about bruce lee

[adacas]

I must correct Crusader on one fact...
You do not want me as a role model. You don't want to be like me. I will get you into trouble and you will hate me for it. Don't be like me and waist your life on civil engineering majors and computers and pay per view porn. You can be so much better. Thai Bri is such a better role model than me.

[jules]

and with all that "skill" Mr. Lee never faced someone other than Wong Jack Man in a public fight.