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  • #16
    the statement would be reasonable if vunak hadn't trained and didn't use bjj, both of which he did/does.

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    • #17
      In "Jeet Kune Do: The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee" Dan Inosanto writes that Jeet Kune Do is matured Jun Fan. The way I explain it to my students is that the tools, tactics and strategies of Jun Fan/OJKD forms the starting point of their JKD training. It is not THE truth, but the starting point from which they can explore. The principles of JKD are exemplified by the "original" techniques. Through their experiences, I encourage them to make their JKD better based on what I have taught them and what they have researched to be useful. Everything is referenced and built of the core JKD tools and principles, but NOT LIMITED by them.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by gungfuhero
        In "Jeet Kune Do: The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee" Dan Inosanto writes that Jeet Kune Do is matured Jun Fan. The way I explain it to my students is that the tools, tactics and strategies of Jun Fan/OJKD forms the starting point of their JKD training. It is not THE truth, but the starting point from which they can explore. The principles of JKD are exemplified by the "original" techniques. Through their experiences, I encourage them to make their JKD better based on what I have taught them and what they have researched to be useful. Everything is referenced and built of the core JKD tools and principles, but NOT LIMITED by them.
        I think that is on the right track. If the person starts at the base. In this case JKD and then goes on to add there personal aspect of tools. Its there personal JKD. Then to teach it I think JKD should be taght as it is . And any added concept is clearly explained as to where it comes in.. Or just let the person find there own mix. That way JKD will be around along time. So others can learn what it has to offer.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Demi Barbito
          """If you really want to see how BJJ might
          be completely thrown out of the window, I would highly
          recommend getting Paul Vunak's Street Safe 3"""

          Not even a reasonable statement.

          Times change. Training changes. If you think biting someone is going to stop them from snapping your arm like a celery stalk you're mistaken. A good ground man bites too.


          Working against biters has also been in the mix for years.

          If you want to see how BJJ might be completly thrown out... recognize threats before they materialize and carry legal weapons that can be deployed at a distance (in addition to your regular training).

          Demi
          demi this would not work on what 3-5% out of a 100? as for any ol fighter or wannabe fighter km would work if trained thru mind and body properly. when did vu bring this material out? years ago. so if a counter has been approached for km, than would you not think that someone like vu and his mindset would have created or dug out a counter for that?come on give credit where it is due

          Comment


          • #20
            what is, is.

            Funny how it goes against the philosophical basis of Bruce Lee-- Taoism, Zen,
            Mahayana Buddhism, Yoga, Krishnamurti, etc. to argue over opinion. All of these folks who endlessly debate every single nuance of Lee's history are doing what Lee expressly forbade- argument over opinion and living in the past. And as far as all of these "anti-Bruce Lee" mma and bjj guys, answer me this: if Bruce Lee was nothing and is nothing, why argue about it? Let the armchair martial arts fantasists worship BL all they want, and get back to the damned mat, for chrissakes!!!!!!!! How does it help your submission game or your leg kick power to bash a man who has been dead for 32 years?

            Comment


            • #21
              JKD is not a special concept.

              If you seriously think about it, the concepts behind JKD are not startingly special. Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to undermine what Bruce Lee did for the martial arts community. He did a great and necessary thing by expounding his beliefs about the martial arts.

              The idea behind JKD, Bruce Lee's motivation if you will, was to re-functionalize something that had become stagnant over generations of formalization, standardization and ritualization. The process of JKD was to reverse the generations of de-volution of the martial arts, and instill them once again with the "martial" aspect. Bruce Lee didn't bring anything new to the martial arts scene, he was just the wake up call to remind us that we were trapped in our ignorance about the arts. Essentially, Bruce Lee put the 'balls' back into martial arts, which at the time had digressed to become nothing more than organized oriental dances.

              Bruce's interpretation of JKD, 'The way of the intercepting fist' completely embodies the process of re-functionalization. "To hit the other guy before he hits you" this is the core of his interpretation, requiring an awesome mastery of your own body. His focus was not on the acquisition of cool-looking techniques, but rather, FIRST the development of the most efficient physical and mental state possible, and then SECOND the tools to back up your agenda.

              Almost all of his original Jun Fan techniques were linear. No shit, it is the quickest path between two bodies. However, Bruce Lee could pull it off, because he actually trained to hit people that moved out of the way and hit back. His personal attributes, and his emphasis on attribute training are what elevated him above his contemporaries at the time.

              It is a known fact that Bruce Lee later on regretted coining the term JKD, because it was slowly becoming exactly what he tried to move away from: an organized system with a core body of techniques. People wanted to fight like Bruce by imitating his technique/system.

              The sad thing is that most people fail to realize that JKD is merely a fancy description of what Bruce Lee could do. With his techniques (Jun Fan- his name) and his attributes, he could do JKD (or 'hit you before you hit me'). In the same way if some random unschooled street fighter could train to the point where he will always take you down before you can touch him, or hit you before you hit him, he will be expressing JKD.

              Ultimately, my point is that no one particular thing is JKD. The term JKD in fact should not need to exist so long as we keep in the spirit of functionalizing our techniques and keeping ourselves in shape. Boxers are practicing it all the time, as are fencers. Vitor Belfort has clearly functionalized the Wing Chun straight-blast (though I am sure he just thinks of it as 'alot of punches in a row'), and his early UFC fights are clearly an expression of JKD.

              A JKD teacher CANNOT be a JKD teacher is he isn't training you to use your own body in the best possible way. Those that keep sparring out of the picture are offenders, however, I am sure that there are other offenders in other areas who neglect the importance of some aspect of physical conditioning.

              BJJ training or not, if you are not learning how to optimize your physical performance, you are not really doing JKD. While cross training is useful, JKD is NOT cross-training. Furthermore, while sparring is useful, JKD is NOT defined by sparring.

              It is not hard to see how an individual untrained in fighting, but who is exceptionally strong and fast (perhaps through another sport) might rip through a slew of so-called JKD guys. I in fact I had the pleasure of training with a guy who, with 1 hour of training had completely nullified everything I knew technically with his superior attributes. I pride myself in my speed, but this guy was just much faster and much stronger. I am proud to say that I have learned from this, and now I have a goal towards which I can train.


              ***As a side note: If you really want to see how BJJ might
              be completely thrown out of the window, I would highly
              recommend getting Paul Vunak's Street Safe 3.

              My recommendation for the practice of JKD is to find the fastest, strongest, toughest guy you can find. Train with him until you begin to see things happen. Then, find someone even faster, stronger, and tougher. So on and so forth.

              To quote Paul Vunak: "The firstest with the mostest is the bestest."
              Amen Brother about time someone else sees the message conveyed:GET OUT OF THE CLASSICAL MESS , ORGINIZED DISPAIR, there's four ranges of combat ,kicking,boxing,trapping,grappling,My 10 or so hours at one of Sifu Richard Bustillo's seminars held at one of his I.M.B.acadamys in Orlando Fla.where I was attending lessons there under Sifu Edwin Pagan'....It had a major impact on my approach to combat evrything I learned prior to that was in desperate need of revamping,the first thing was to research my own experiences, 2nd,was to add what was usefull, 3Rd,reject what was useless, 4th,add what was specifically my own,then it hit me like a ton of bricks trapping range is the most efficient range to maintain.Why you may ask well you do have all your tools from this range (see Paul Vunak's) Elbos Knees and Headbutts for street fighting ,as well as street fight scientifically,if a fight last longer than 30 seconds .......Is it because your opponent is more adept than you? Or is it merely that you are doing something wrong?A side note: When moving be like water,When still be like a mirror, When responding respond like an echo echo echo.....you must learn to intergrate in & out of different styles & systems, seek the suchness in it's isness don't fight their fight make them fight your fight....You should already be the victorious one before the fight begins...what I mean by that is upon confrontation or engagment the fight should be mapped out in your head ...I know you might ask yourself how that will work,your opponent may not make the begining move you visualized, well that's predicated on if you fight his fight or make them fight your fight....In J.K.D. there are no fixed teachings all that is provided in J.K.D. is a medicine for a particular Ailment...For all you that are confused about the concepts of J.K.D buy the book Tao Of Jeet Kune Do use it as personal wook book write your own notes down on the inner pages as you experiment.Never forget this personal experience of mine you can have all the technique in the world , if you have no application of these techniques in COMBAT then they are USELESS to you.......



              My idea of J.K.D. concepts : Is you take what technique you learn and make it fit your body,(Orginized dispair)Classical teachings would have you believe other- wise,tradition is merely an encumberment that must be shed because all it's doing is weighting you down......In the end you will realize that Bruce's concepts are not really his,by adding what is specifically your own makes these concepts yours .

              (NOTE) Those who lose,are the ones who gain!!!Always remember that when using in-fighting (Trapping)your most valuable tool isyour ability to recognized what sensitivity you are recieving from your opponent ! (HENCE the phrase learn to cut through your opponents tools)

              Comment


              • #22
                These damned arm chair artists crack me up,the duality that they hender themselves with is the mind worst disease....(DUALITY) the fight between this and that, the idea is to use any means that serves an end !!! That's it that's all there's no more....So I say to them while you're running your damn jibbs,there's someone out there that's preparing to use these so called non-functional concepts of Jun Fan's against your so-believed in your own mind that yours is better than his or hers ect.Once again why the duality?Two fighter of equality in technique,speed,power,accurecy,timming ect. My educated guess would be that the one who's the master of the fake will emerge victorious! But i'm just some dumb sumbiotch that has no clue to this situation what so ever ......HMMMMMMMMMM or do I? <~~~~~(DUALITY) LOL

                Comment


                • #23
                  JKD is what Bruce trained and taught. Then personal JKD is what the person found to work and use. If its extended from other concepts. Its still personal aproach. BUT JKD has a method of training. Left for others to learn. You keep it seperate. Then any personal tools aspects or such Is your method. If shared tell the person its concepts. Or such. TO many people throw this with that and call it JKD. IT is not. It may be concepts. And influenced by JKD But not JKD. About the name. Bruce found that it restricted it self to a method. But also People learned just a little and tried to teach it and had no real knowledge of it. BUt thought they could make a dollar or two. Personal JKD is a stage all people who train it should get to. Because know matter what art or training method. ONLY what works for the person is any good to them. Every body has there way. Thats what makes this world interesting. You are who you are. And be it JKd or jany art. You find your own tools of use. A person that has never had any training at all. But has fought on the streets can fight well. The best training is by doing. Testing your tools. Finding ways of use and ways of defence. adding and taking away. Problem is every one wants to argue JKD rather spend time learning and then doing. I would safely say JKD is the most argued M/A out there. Because its the most misunderstood. train it do it leave it behind and its yours. Leave its path for others to learn by. But if you just do A and B why call it jkd.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    well stated

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Demi Barbito
                      """If you really want to see how BJJ might
                      be completely thrown out of the window, I would highly
                      recommend getting Paul Vunak's Street Safe 3"""

                      Not even a reasonable statement.

                      Times change. Training changes. If you think biting someone is going to stop them from snapping your arm like a celery stalk you're mistaken. A good ground man bites too.


                      Working against biters has also been in the mix for years.

                      If you want to see how BJJ might be completly thrown out... recognize threats before they materialize and carry legal weapons that can be deployed at a distance (in addition to your regular training).

                      Demi

                      Telling lies may make baby jesus cry, but telling the truth makes the average joe cry. Be careful, or you'll have to build an ark.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        "JKD is about more than kicking and punching, it's also about ATTITUDE!"

                        JKD student under Hal Faulkner (associate instructor JFJKD)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          "Funny how it goes against the philosophical basis of Bruce Lee-- Taoism, Zen,
                          Mahayana Buddhism, Yoga, Krishnamurti, etc. to argue over opinion. All of these folks who endlessly debate every single nuance of Lee's history are doing what Lee expressly forbade- argument over opinion and living in the past. And as far as all of these "anti-Bruce Lee" mma and bjj guys, answer me this: if Bruce Lee was nothing and is nothing, why argue about it? Let the armchair martial arts fantasists worship BL all they want, and get back to the damned mat, for chrissakes!!!!!!!! How does it help your submission game or your leg kick power to bash a man who has been dead for 32 years?"

                          I agree with 100 % there fenwick99.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Maxximus
                            Nowadays, with everyone and their grandmother crosstraining to find the most effective all around strategy for themselves, whether or not you term it "Jeet Kune Do" seems to be a moot point.

                            I hate to say it, but I've come to see JKD as something systemized. Think about it...although JKD is supposed to be strictly an idea or concept, not just anyone can think along the lines of JKD and call himself a JKD man without a bunch of actually affiliated JKD guys jumping on his back. For someone to be characterized as a JKD man nowadays, he'd have to be a freestyle artist with background and training in a JKD curriculum, which involves training under a JKD certified instructor. If you do not have a background in Jun Fan martial arts or Filipino arts or Muay Thai, PFS or a combination of all the above, you probably will not be considered a JKD man by anyone. So you can argue that JKDC has been systemized. Thankfully enough, it has not become stylized since it is still a freestyle type of training and provides a great amount of freedom for the individual practitioners and instructors. But as for the OJKD and whatnot, they have gone as far as stylizing JKD which kinda kills the entire idea, IMO. When you get right down to it, JKD was meant to be nothing more than a simple idea that makes lots of sense. There is really no need to adorn it with a fancy sounding term like "The Way of the Intercepting Fist" and a bunch of poetic passages from the Tao Te Ching. JKD is not an idea that says you have to use Bruce Lee's personal strategy and techniques (Jun Fan). It is simply training with a freestyle mentality without limiting yourself to the confines of one particular strategy and finding the most direct and effective methods for you yourself to win quick. There are now, and have probably always been warriors and martial artists everywhere training in this fashion. Whether you call it JKD, vale tudo, mixed martial arts, or whatever really doesn't matter. Therefore, you don't really need the term JKD at all, do you? I think that was a key point Bruce was trying to make with his philosophy, but unfortunately a lot of people didn't get it. When you think about it, perhaps Bruce didn't fully comprehend the very idea that he was getting at. That's why he at first had to attach some kind of label to it by terming it "Jeet Kune Do". When he finally realized what he himself truly meant, he then regretted coining the term to begin with.

                            Basically, the only thing that makes something specifically JKD (rather than just freestyle practical fighting in general) is its connection to the training methods, techniques and direct influence of Bruce Lee. JKD is basically an institution. Who cares? I like being a part of that institution.
                            You must either be a "JKDC" type or you dont know much about Jeet kune do.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              bunch of people that dont care about kuen,

                              AJKD BJKD CJKD DJKD FJKD GJKD HJKD IJKD JJKD KJKD LJKD MJKD NJKD OJKD PJKD QJKDC
                              RJKD SJKD TJKDCGA JKDGFA UJKD VJKD WJKD XJKD YJKD ZJKD.

                              I looked around but i couldnt find a EJKD association. All these sorts of Jeet Kune Do. which is better??????????????Which would bruce lee like better? the classic non evolved JKD or the motherbrain concept JKD or the spiritualj BLAH BLAH BLAH

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                JKD is not a special concept.

                                If you seriously think about it, the concepts behind JKD are not startingly special. Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to undermine what Bruce Lee did for the martial arts community. He did a great and necessary thing by expounding his beliefs about the martial arts.

                                The idea behind JKD, Bruce Lee's motivation if you will, was to re-functionalize something that had become stagnant over generations of formalization, standardization and ritualization. The process of JKD was to reverse the generations of de-volution of the martial arts, and instill them once again with the "martial" aspect. Bruce Lee didn't bring anything new to the martial arts scene, he was just the wake up call to remind us that we were trapped in our ignorance about the arts. Essentially, Bruce Lee put the 'balls' back into martial arts, which at the time had digressed to become nothing more than organized oriental dances.

                                Bruce's interpretation of JKD, 'The way of the intercepting fist' completely embodies the process of re-functionalization. "To hit the other guy before he hits you" this is the core of his interpretation, requiring an awesome mastery of your own body. His focus was not on the acquisition of cool-looking techniques, but rather, FIRST the development of the most efficient physical and mental state possible, and then SECOND the tools to back up your agenda.

                                Almost all of his original Jun Fan techniques were linear. No shit, it is the quickest path between two bodies. However, Bruce Lee could pull it off, because he actually trained to hit people that moved out of the way and hit back. His personal attributes, and his emphasis on attribute training are what elevated him above his contemporaries at the time.

                                It is a known fact that Bruce Lee later on regretted coining the term JKD, because it was slowly becoming exactly what he tried to move away from: an organized system with a core body of techniques. People wanted to fight like Bruce by imitating his technique/system.

                                The sad thing is that most people fail to realize that JKD is merely a fancy description of what Bruce Lee could do. With his techniques (Jun Fan- his name) and his attributes, he could do JKD (or 'hit you before you hit me'). In the same way if some random unschooled street fighter could train to the point where he will always take you down before you can touch him, or hit you before you hit him, he will be expressing JKD.

                                Ultimately, my point is that no one particular thing is JKD. The term JKD in fact should not need to exist so long as we keep in the spirit of functionalizing our techniques and keeping ourselves in shape. Boxers are practicing it all the time, as are fencers. Vitor Belfort has clearly functionalized the Wing Chun straight-blast (though I am sure he just thinks of it as 'alot of punches in a row'), and his early UFC fights are clearly an expression of JKD.

                                A JKD teacher CANNOT be a JKD teacher is he isn't training you to use your own body in the best possible way. Those that keep sparring out of the picture are offenders, however, I am sure that there are other offenders in other areas who neglect the importance of some aspect of physical conditioning.

                                BJJ training or not, if you are not learning how to optimize your physical performance, you are not really doing JKD. While cross training is useful, JKD is NOT cross-training. Furthermore, while sparring is useful, JKD is NOT defined by sparring.

                                It is not hard to see how an individual untrained in fighting, but who is exceptionally strong and fast (perhaps through another sport) might rip through a slew of so-called JKD guys. I in fact I had the pleasure of training with a guy who, with 1 hour of training had completely nullified everything I knew technically with his superior attributes. I pride myself in my speed, but this guy was just much faster and much stronger. I am proud to say that I have learned from this, and now I have a goal towards which I can train.


                                ***As a side note: If you really want to see how BJJ might
                                be completely thrown out of the window, I would highly
                                recommend getting Paul Vunak's Street Safe 3.

                                My recommendation for the practice of JKD is to find the fastest, strongest, toughest guy you can find. Train with him until you begin to see things happen. Then, find someone even faster, stronger, and tougher. So on and so forth.

                                To quote Paul Vunak: "The firstest with the mostest is the bestest."
                                I agree. What's in a name anyway? With each system you cross train in you augment your own personal system. But, being able to understand what your attributes are and how they can be used to your benefit can be hard to do. Unless you have a teacher who has trained in several systems and has acquired attributes from each system.

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