Fundementals of a good MA or MMA?

[seany85]

What are the basic elements that make up a solid foundation for a MA or MMA?

Is it
speed,
strength,
power,
good tech,
sharp reflexes?
good stamina?


Does it come more natural to some people?, or is it the same for everyone, just train hard?

I know it depends what context you look at it in, eg for Military, Self-defence, competition, hobby.......

However there must be a middle ground for all these applications, something they all have incommon.

Opinions people?

[darrianation]

This was taken and modified from a post I wrote in another thread.

There are many reasons why people take martial arts.
1) Sport
2) Fitness
3) For a cultural experience
4) To feel better about themselves, oh….I mean spiritual
5) Self-defense
6) ETC.

All these reasons are legitimate.

I train for self-defense and take it very seriously. However there are good ma's for just about any goal you have and bad ones too.

My personal favorites for sport are MT, Boxing, K1, BJJ, Submission wrestling, and events like the UFCs, Pride, and K1.

My biggest peeve with MAs is all these feel good traditional MAs promoting themselves as practical self-defense. This really chaps my hide!

All MAs have their good techniques, tactics, philosophies, and strategies, and their bad (or weak). So because of individual goals, strengths, likes, and dislikes people gravitate to one MA or another. These MAs maybe best for them based on their goals (etc), but this is a far cry from making that art superior.

I have said it a hundred times on this forum; it’s not always about the techniques. If you totally rely on techniques then you rely in false security.

In a real life and death situation that erupts suddenly and violently the cognitive brain shuts down. So most of those techniques the ones that rely fine motor skills shut down with it. The primitive brain or reactive brain takes over so you can only truly rely on a small number of simple techniques that rely on gross motor movements. So more is not necessarily better. An ideal MA for SD would be a system that is not top heavy in techniques and has few if any in comlicated techniques.

What makes a good fighter?
1) Mental toughness
2) Intelligence
3) Proper training
4) Physical toughness
5) Hard training
6) Personal attributes
7) Techniques

* They may not be in this specific order but mental toughness is #1 and techniques are definitely last.

What makes a good self-defense system?
1) One that understands the above 7
2) Mindset
3) Based in science
4) Based in reality
5) Psychology
6) Physics, anatomy, physiology, kinesiology
7) Techniques in all the combat ranges (weapons, striking, clinching (or trapping), and ground
8) Weapons
9) Full contact drills
10) Use of force and the law
11) Realistic scenario training
12) Train for the unpredictable
13) Trains in first aide
14) Training needs to be as real as possible
15) Throw out the crap and keep what works. keep your weapons locker clean and to the bare minimum
16) Keep it simple
17) Progressives or continues to change
18) Survive!

And of course remember the K.I.S.S princple: Keep it simple stupid!

Ask yourself does my MA have this? If you are training for SD then it better! If you are training to feel good then you don’t need these things.

Peyton Quinn once said of traditional arts “They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems." So if you are looking for self-defense then I would not look to the traditional based systems.

[grubbogoppoly]

I think that no matter what your reason for doing the martial arts your base has to be strong. This means footwork and strong basic techniques.

Footwork/movement is where most people go wrong. I think the trap that most people fall into is JUST learning the techniques before they have formed their base. How do I throw a punch properly and how do I throw a proper roundhouse etc. Just learning how to move in an efficient way, which does not limit your options in attack and/or defense is very hard to acquire. To me this is where you should start. Learn good footwork and once the footwork is there any good technique that you learn may be applied.

There is nothing wrong with knowing a lot of techniques. There is ,however, something wrong with knowing how to do lots of techniques but none of them well. To the fact that most people state that the more options you have the slower your reaction will be. Yes this is true. But, I will ask you a couple of questions. Why do you only think about this when considering attack? If a attacker has more weapons he does have a longer response time. However, the defender does not just have 2 maybe 3 things to worry about. I think we would all agree it is harder to fight someone who can use both hands equally efficientlly over someone who is a "one handed fighter". I do agree that you should have those bread and butter moves. But, I think you should also work on developing other techniques as well. The other question I will ask is why would do all ranges of fighting if you hold this view?
I will plainly state that I agree that you should. but I am just making the point that at one point you say more is worst(TMA) then the next you say it is better (doing all ranges of fighting)

In addition, in tma there are a lot of techniques. A lot of them would NEVER work for me. However, they DO work for other people. This is the reason for there being so many techniques. If it doesn't work for you you don't use it.

[darrianation]

I

There is nothing wrong with knowing a lot of techniques. There is ,however, something wrong with knowing how to do lots of techniques but none of them well. To the fact that most people state that the more options you have the slower your reaction will be. Yes this is true. But, I will ask you a couple of questions. Why do you only think about this when considering attack? If a attacker has more weapons he does have a longer response time. However, the defender does not just have 2 maybe 3 things to worry about. I think we would all agree it is harder to fight someone who can use both hands equally efficientlly over someone who is a "one handed fighter". I do agree that you should have those bread and butter moves. But, I think you should also work on developing other techniques as well. The other question I will ask is why would do all ranges of fighting if you hold this view?
I will plainly state that I agree that you should. but I am just making the point that at one point you say more is worst(TMA) then the next you say it is better (doing all ranges of fighting)

I think your right to a point. But remember learning a few or a lot regardles if it's 6 or 600 techniques isn’t bad in and of itself but what I mean is once you’ve learned the ones you like and can make effective then drop the others. By all means continue to learn new techniques to find the ones that work for you but keep trimming the ones that don’t work as well off that way your weapons locker is kept nice and tidy.

[grubbogoppoly]

Yeah I agree with yah there. I am a TMA. I think that is one of the problems many TMA have. Since they have to know these certain techniques for a test they begin to just concentrate on that without ever critically thinking about the application of the technique. They just accept it as a block, a punch and then a throw or whatever. That is the trap that many TMA's fall into-the test becomes the concentration of their training. I look at the test as an indication of my training(that is why everyone else is aways more nervous than me in the tests )I consider myself at least somewhat active in the application of my techniques(allthough I have been a lazy ass recently-Fugging women ).
I hope that was somewhat coherent. Like I said I am being a lazy ass and don't want to read over it again.

[darrianation]

Yeah I agree with yah there. I am a TMA. I think that is one of the problems many TMA have. Since they have to know these certain techniques for a test they begin to just concentrate on that without ever critically thinking about the application of the technique. They just accept it as a block, a punch and then a throw or whatever. That is the trap that many TMA's fall into-the test becomes the concentration of their training. I look at the test as an indication of my training(that is why everyone else is aways more nervous than me in the tests )I consider myself at least somewhat active in the application of my techniques(allthough I have been a lazy ass recently-Fugging women ).
I hope that was somewhat coherent. Like I said I am being a lazy ass and don't want to read over it again.

I believe there only should be one test. Can the student actually use his skills in battle?

Line a guy up in front of him and have him attack. The student being tested will not know how he'll be attacked. The attacker will not cooperate with defender. This will be full contact.

Allow 2 or 3 different people to attack (at different times) using different circumstances and attacks.

The circumstances of the attack need to change with successive attacks to change up the variables.

This will test the skills, toughness, and conditioning.

For more advanced students add multiple attackers, and weapons like knives, sticks, and etc.

This is far more representative of the student's skills than doing a few select techniques in the air, kata, and a game of tag that most Trad's call sparring.

[grubbogoppoly]

I believe there only should be one test. Can the student actually use his skills in battle?

Line a guy up in front of him and have him attack. The student being tested will not know how he'll be attacked. The attacker will not cooperate with defender. This will be full contact.

Allow 2 or 3 different people to attack (at different times) using different circumstances and attacks.

The circumstances of the attack need to change with successive attacks to change up the variables.

This will test the skills, toughness, and conditioning.

For more advanced students add multiple attackers, and weapons like knives, sticks, and etc.

This is far more representative of the student's skills than doing a few select techniques in the air, kata, and a game of tag that most Trad's call sparring.

I would agree that the way you state is a good way to test. However, for some people this isn't a good way to test because all they want is something fun to do and get in shape at the same time.

Arrg..and that last statement always erks me. While it may be true of some places. I have only actually participated in two. The first one they started you out in that "game". At a more advanced level then they would let you go at it more(Although if the head instructor thinks your ready he will allow you to play a little harder. The second place you go as hard as you want to. For me that is a little bit lighter cause I have about 5-10 years less experience than MOST of the guys there and most of them also have about 50-100 lbs on me. If I don't keep my guard up my head/jaw WILL be pounding throbbing the next day. So, I definitely wouldn't call it a game. So I can't really say whether or not there is a game that "most" tma's call sparring. How have you determined this? Point sparring tournaments? Just because something is participated by a group doesn't make it there only "training method". Yeah I know they are all over. But, at least personally I don't consider that sparring. Neither do the people at my school(some who have participated in them). Like you said it is a game. You have to show the judges what they want etc, etc. But, that is not the only "sparring" that is done in TMA. We have one 1 and a half hour sparring class on wed and a 2-3 hour sparring session on sat and like I said before it is not the game. I have not done a point sparring session since coming here. In addition you should see the sparring matches we get going in the tai chi class I take at the college;D Jk of course.

[darrianation]

First of all just because you train in a TMA doesn’t mean you can’t defend yourself. But it is a said state of affairs when you can say that the bulk of the TMA student’s are there to get some exercise and have some fun. This tells me just how commercialized and degraded that our combat arts have become.

Unfortunately even hard contact sparring in most MAs is still a game of tag because it relies on to many restrictive rules and over time it becomes predictable. Mostly it’s just a series of exchanges involving punches and kicks. Simply put, it lacks the dynamics and unpredictability of a real fight. In most traditional (and some non-traditional) MAs alike the type of sparring done develops neural-muscle memory that isn’t realistic or specific to self-defense. In a real street fight you do not want to engage in exchanges of punches and kicks. However I think that free sparring still has merit for developing timing, and distancing, and etc, but it shouldn’t be your only (or main) fight training modality.

Sparring should be done in short duration (or bursts), using situational engagements. To improve stamina you can string together a group of rapidly successive engagements making each engagement differ slightly and making them unpredictable and developing combat conditioning. I personally like to box full speed/power for a round or two then go into situational sparring using your whole (or near whole) arsenal.

It is important to allow punches, kicks, knees/elbows (at a lighter contact of course), clinches, takedowns, groundwork, submissions, and of course weapons (from time to time). Biting and eye gouging can be inferred by simulation.

The attacker can have a specific attack in mind or he can be told what attack/s to use, but the defender must not know what the attack will be or told how to defend. It is up to the defender to draw from his weapons locker any number of techniques he has learned to defend himself swiftly and decisively. If one technique doesn’t work he needs to able to adapt and change techniques/tactics mid stream to overcome his attacker. Effectiveness is the key.

Remember though, techniques have the least to do with being successful in a street fight so no matter where you draw those techniques from rather it be from Tai chi, Shaolin KF, or TKD the more important aspects are:
1) Mental toughness and intelligence
2) Physical toughness and conditioning
3) Hard work, dedicated training, and proper training
4) Natural talents and attributes
5) The techniques
6) Luck

These are more likely to play a major role in the outcome of a street encounter than the style of the MA you do.

Anyway check out these threads to find out more:

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=11728

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=11778

[darrianation]

Ground fighting!

A note about groundwork and street fighting:

How many of you practice your grappling out on the asphalt, or cement, if no then why? I’ll state the obvious here, because you get hurt and hurt badly.

Also if you happen to be on the bottom you are seriously restricted on what you can do offensively while the BG on top has lots of nasty things he can do to you. Like elbow, or punch you into oblivion, he can also use your head as a battering ram against the cement you are laying on etc.

Another thing, when the fight begins are you sure he doesn’t have friends lurking around? Are you sure if he does they won’t jump in and stomp your face through the back of your head? The ground is a bad place to be if there are multiples.

Groundwork is very important because many fights do end up there but you should never go there intentionally. Unless of course you are an excellent grappler and it’s one on one with no chance of anyone else intervening on the bad guys side. Can you guarantee that?

Of course you should learn throws, takedowns, and trips but more importantly counters to throws, takedowns, and trips. You need to learn fighting from the guard but more important is learning how to escape the mount. If you are on top then escape to your feet, if you are unable to get away and back on your feet, then punch, palm heel strike, elbow, bite, and eye gouge mercilessly until the BG is no longer a threat. But be aware of you surroundings for more BGs moving in.

One thing you can do during free sparring or situational sparring is if the attacker takes the defender down and he is down for a period of time lets just say for shits and giggles 10 seconds then another student or instructor jumps in and attacks the defender simulating a BG’s buddy jumping in. This will facilitate learning and incorporating quick escapes. Also this develops awareness of the defender watching the environment even though he is engaged with the BG

Of course while learning new techniques and, or drilling ground techniques you do not have to put time limits on this. Time limits should be placed during free sparring and situational or scenario fighting. Stopping the ground fighting should not be done with a whistle or a break but by a third party stepping in and pounding the defender.

Remember: Hit first, Hit hard, Hit often, and grapple only when you have too!

[grubbogoppoly]

"But it is a said state of affairs when you can say that the bulk of the TMA student’s are there to get some exercise and have some fun. This tells me just how commercialized and degraded that our combat arts have become."

Sorry...But, I completely disagree with that statement. Why should you determine what the reason for someone using martial arts should be. If I go out and play basketball with my friends, but do not compete in any sort of organized game am I degrading the game? Just something to think about.
But, I do agree that problems can result from this. But, problems can result from anything people participate in and this should not stop people from doing these things.

[darrianation]

"But it is a said state of affairs when you can say that the bulk of the TMA student’s are there to get some exercise and have some fun. This tells me just how commercialized and degraded that our combat arts have become."

Sorry...But, I completely disagree with that statement. Why should you determine what the reason for someone using martial arts should be. If I go out and play basketball with my friends, but do not compete in any sort of organized game am I degrading the game? Just something to think about.
But, I do agree that problems can result from this. But, problems can result from anything people participate in and this should not stop people from doing these things.

No, seriously there is nothing wrong with it. But that’s the kind of people that the majority or at least many MA schools seem to be geared towards.

Not all MAs are like this but so many have become so commercialized that they set their curriculum and the intensity towards kids and older adults who just want to get in shape, or socialize. Hell some taebo students can beat some karate schools top student's. If they were to train with high intensity or with true SD in mind studen't will leave so they keep things easy and light, or promote quikly. they might as well call themselves karate-a-cise, or karate aerobics.

It's all okay until they start permoting themselves as self-defense schools or systems.

Maybe there should be a 4 tiered system one for the feel gooders, one for the the outa shapers, and one the geritol generation, and one for those who really want combat arts, only more combat less art.

Oh... wait there are schools like that but there are few and far between.

[grubbogoppoly]

No, seriously there is nothing wrong with it. But that’s the kind of people that the majority or at least many MA schools seem to be geared towards.

Not all MAs are like this but so many have become so commercialized that they set their curriculum and the intensity towards kids and older adults who just want to get in shape, or socialize. Hell some taebo students can beat some karate schools top student's. If they were to train with high intensity or with true SD in mind studen't will leave so they keep things easy and light, or promote quikly. they might as well call themselves karate-a-cise, or karate aerobics.

It's all okay until they start permoting themselves as self-defense schools or systems.

Maybe there should be a 4 tiered system one for the feel gooders, one for the the outa shapers, and one the geritol generation, and one for those who really want combat arts, only more combat less art.

Oh... wait there are schools like that but there are few and far between.

Interesting you should say that..I find it a very valid point. In my art they have kind of something to that effect(whether it was intended that way or not). Tae soo do is kind of like the beginners/feel gooders/overweight people. Once you get your black belt in Tae soo do you go into Hwa rang do as a yellow sash(some people with prior experience just go straight to HRD, and start out as white sash.). HRD is much more "old school". You don't have the intensity and you won't survive. I had never really looked at it the way you put it. But, I think that is kind of the way it breaks down.