using academic degrees

[kcfile]

KCFILE, Please do not do this degree thing for martal arts. Look, there are better Ph.D. distance learning degrees out there from ACCREDITTED schools. Here is one called the Union Institute where you can actually design your own Ph.D. Think about it; you decide the content of your degree, you pick the faculty members for your doctoral committees, and it is likely that you can pick outside faculty members with expertise in martial arts if you like. It takes an average of 3 years; it's more academic and it's recognized just as much as any other legitimate institution. You can basically do the program as it suits you. You can do karate in school and specialize in an area, but the non-accreditted school may give you some issues with employers down the line. If the school is non-accreditted, good luck trying to convince someone your worth just as much as so-and-so who got a degree at an accreditted school. Think of the degree that's worth it to go in debt if it gives you job FLEXIBILITY, just like you can do other occupations besides that particular one. A martial arts one can only be used for that 1 field, but getting an accreddited degree allows you flexibility for other lines of work, like business, marketing, teaching at a university etc. Really think about this hard. Any Ph.D., even at a sub-par academic institution or an easy to get into university with accreditation is probably worth more than the non-accredited schools. ACCREDITATION IS THE DIFFERENCE! Very few non-accredited schools have a solid enough academic reputation to get people to respect the degree. It is better not to bother even finding out taking this risk, though. We're talking about job security FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. The stigma follows you around everywhere. This is one of those decisions that will affect your marketibility FOREVER, so really take a second glance at this. I am doing a political science Ph.D. at Georgia State and I would NOT advise anyone to go the easy route because people recognize the difference in academia between the degrees accreddited and ones that aren't. Even if you get publications out, that's great, and maybe the belt itself will be legitimate if under a recognized master and you actually train in a class setting, but the degree means nothing itself. A few teachers in a local district around here applied for jobs with an Internet degree from non-accreditted schools and immediately got fired or were out of the running for the jobs when the employers found out.

http://www.tui.edu/

"Union Institute & University is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools 30 North LaSalle Street, Suite 2400, Chicago, IL 60602-2504, (312) 263-0456."

You can design your own Ph.D. program

Thank you for your information, frankenbeans. I have seen the website of the university. It is accredited regionally in USA. However, the tuition fee is much more expensive for me, US$16,460 per year, while WCU is US$8,800 for the whole degree program, not per year. I have also checked the WCU's Degrees can be evaluated as equivalent to United States Regionally Accredited Degrees by Members of NAFSA and AACRAO. From WCU's website, http://www.westcoastuniversity-edu.c...embership.html, it shows WCU Courses are articulated by a number of recognized Australian, British, American and other Universities and Institutions of Higher Education for further studies as well.

[kcfile]

You guys crack me up.

I have been going to college classes for 8yrs now. I already have what I want, I just go back for more knowledge. You really think you're going to convince anybody that you earned a PHD in 3yrs over the internet. Ha
Might as well tell them you were the high-school president and sold cookies for fundraisers.

Listen, if you want to continue your education to further your own knowledge, and to get you a step above the rest; props to you. But if you think you're going to impress anybody with garbage diplomas and taking the easy way out, you got a lot to learn.

None of that matters when you sit down in front of someone that really knows whats going on. All that really matters is whether or not you can do the job better than the rest. Personally, if anybody ever presented a fake or 3yr internet PHD to me as a reference, I would laugh them out of the office and never waste my time with that person again.

I think internet/online degrees should not be fake if they have serious course structure and requirements. As I know, even the famous universities like University of Leeds UK or University of Washington USA are offering pure online coursework master/doctor degrees. There are a lot of degree programs even in professional public liability, like Master in Civil Engineering, being taught via pure onlline coursework/project submission WITHOUT examinations. You may go to the official websites of these universities to check them out.

University of London, one of the top five universities in UK, and University of South Africa are also offering PhD programs by research on distance learning/external study basis with the support of online teaching tools, e.g. online debate message board/internet conferencing facilities ... etc.

[frankenbeans]

good you are on the right track

KCFile, you are certainly on the right track now. That other university looks decent; as long as there is some recognized accrediting agency behind it, it is probably a better alternative. Distance education is becoming more accepted nowadays and allows opportunities for those who don't have time to go to class.
I think this is probably improving your prospects much better if you want to do an actual degree program like this. A friend of mine got a degree at DeVry last year (who I think has several distance learning opportunities) and now has a nice IT job at CNN making 40K+ a year. By the way, it will NOT say "online degree" when you get the diploma from these schools. It will say Bachelor of Arts or Doctor Of Philosophy, just like any other degree from that school, so the only way people would know it's a long-distance degree is if you tell them or designate that it is.

[HtTKar]

There's a difference between schools that dont offer a class at one location, but offer it at another (sister school) and allow you to learn via online classes (such as DeVry, and SUNY schools), and schools that just design webpages full of curriculum.

Really, whats to keep you from learning all that stuff on your own? They are not going to teach you anything that you cannot find for free on the internet.

If you really think that this degree is going to help you in the future, go to the place where you think it will help you (future employer) and ask them what they think of that school, or whether or not this online school will further your career. 9/10 of the time, it doesnt really matter whether or not you even went to college; if you really know the material and know how to write a good resume.

I do take online courses, and have for a couple years. It's not like I'm just throwing an opinion around, it's experience. A college needs to have a name for itself and few online colleges do that, one example would be University of Pheonix Online.

You have to earn a degree, and I stand by my statement.

Personally, if anybody ever presented a fake or 3yr internet PHD to me as a reference, I would laugh them out of the office and never waste my time with that person again.

Also a degree doesnt have to say online. All references are looked up and verified. Many people lie to make themselves look better. Reference checks are an industry standard.

I use online courses as a way to further my own knowledge, as well as taking traditional college classes, and learning on the job. You can never have too much information. But I dont approach this thinking that it's going to take me places, or further my career. That comes from work, and nothing else.

[frankenbeans]

oh boy HtTKar just took me to school

HTTKar:

Really, whats to keep you from learning all that stuff on your own? They are not
going to teach you anything that you cannot find for free on the internet.

If you really think that this degree is going to help you in the future, go to
the place where you think it will help you (future employer) and ask them what they think of that school, or whether or not this online school will further your career. 9/10 of the time, it doesnt really matter whether or not you even went to college; if you really know the material and know how to write a good resume.

I use online courses as a way to further my own knowledge, as well as taking
traditional college classes, and learning on the job.

I dont approach this thinking that it's going to take me
places, or further my career. That comes from work, and nothing else.


Hi HTTKar, I think you just made me look like an amatuer. I don't know anything about the real world because I've been in school for the last 9 years. If anyone would know about what really matters about getting the degree, it is people who are already out there, not Ph.D. students like me who only know about how university settings apply to the real world and what others tell me the degree is good for. You are so right about the fact that you can learn all that stuff on your own that is taught in a classroom. The only difference between online degrees is that I have to listen to professors rant about their particular political positions while we students sit stunned and impressed or hopelessly have to sit out the lectures until we can't take it anymore. Fortunately, you are probably spared some of the inconveniences of going to class and get to study more on your own. However, the classroom experience does provide some additional insight into how the material might apply in certain situations, but again, people can learn that on their own if they make the effort. You have shown great wisdom by suggesting that instead of people immediately going to a school because they "heard" it was good, it is better to talk to the employers and find out their particular opinions about a school or what a student might need to take to get a job. Yes, there are skills that a job teaches that school won't (how to do an interview, how to work on your own instead of going to the professor and saying, "What's next?") But going to class gives you discipline; it's harder to get the motivation to study on your own (like an online degree) if you are lazy. By being forced to go to class, you get spoon-fed the information, whether you like it or not, until you can't ignore the professor and must perform if you want the grade. Also, I keep forgetting to realize that taking classes to learn new things is also an option; people can't forget the real value of an education, not as the piece of paper to get the job but also the knowledge as sheer enjoyment that stays with you forever, much like martial arts when your body (i.e. muscle memory) remembers the stuff you did way back when even if your mind can't recall it. The degree won't guarantee the job, but it does start opening the doors.

[Aikia]

Frankenbeans,
We have of course covered this concept before.
If your plan is to use your Ph.D. to earn a university teaching position then best advice is stay in the brick and mortar college! I can tell you from much experience when an "on-line" degree or "correspondence degree" is noted on an application for employment for faculty the application will be rejected. Professors can not give recommendations for students that they have never met. It may be that an "on-line" degree can be useful at the bachleors level, even at the masters level for non-teaching occupations. If you do not plan to teach or conduct research there is really no reason to go through the "torture" to earn a doctorate. And maybe that is why there is a market for the no-pain mail order Ph.D's. You can claim the title, and some people will beleive you, and you don't even have to do the work.

[frankenbeans]

Frankenbeans,
We have of course covered this concept before.
If your plan is to use your Ph.D. to earn a university teaching position then best advice is stay in the brick and mortar college! I can tell you from much experience when an "on-line" degree or "correspondence degree" is noted on an application for employment for faculty the application will be rejected. Professors can not give recommendations for students that they have never met. It may be that an "on-line" degree can be useful at the bachleors level, even at the masters level for non-teaching occupations. If you do not plan to teach or conduct research there is really no reason to go through the "torture" to earn a doctorate. And maybe that is why there is a market for the no-pain mail order Ph.D's. You can claim the title, and some people will beleive you, and you don't even have to do the work.

I must be honest, when I was looking at PH.D. programs, I seriously considered the Union Institute that I listed because it was accredited and one of the faculty members had a business on the side and was trying to encourage me to come work for her. I thought about it for awhile, and then I asked some of my professors from my MS program what they thought about it. One particularly powerful opinion I got from a faculty member was that doing a distance learning Ph.D. sounds great, but she told me that it would be hard to get a job and compete with others who did typical Ph.D. programs. She thought it was kind of risky and said I should stick to a well-established, traditional program if I wanted to be on the safe side to ensure better chances of getting a job. I'm glad I took the advice (and am doing an ordinary, traditional Ph.D.) because I keep telling myself only a few years left and I'll have the job; the growing pains in the classroom will get you where you want to go I guess because the easy way out just won't cut it. If people see the online thing, it seems like it's really hard to know the difference on a resume between one of these and a fake Ph.D. or to know how much work the person actually did in his/her program.

Anyway, how do you get recommendations with the online degree? The personal relationships I've established in my program now I wouldn't change for anything, and I can't see how one could actually get through the rigors of a program without establishing some personal relationship with professors that is great training for the job market. This type of human interaction one can't get as an online student; also, I wouldn't be getting the opportunities to publish articles without professors' help. One other thing I've noticed about particular fields of study: the world is small, and a lot of these academics from like-minded fields know each other from conferences, job interviews, and such. Some know how the others write, some have TAUGHT some of the younger faculty, some also do workshops together or teach summer classes at seminars or conferences. Even though the schools are everywhere, there is so much crossover and opportunity of meeting one another through various circumstances that if one DID get an online degree, word would get around quickly. All it takes is a simple phone call fom one buddy at X school to another buddy at Y university, and then, both departments would already know what's going on. It's just not worth the risk; somehow, somewhere, someone would find out, and then that person would be out of the running for ANY job. Maybe overseas, maybe someone might give him a chance, but it's not going to be the choice jobs that the guy really wants. Is it worth going through the trouble? If you find out that there is such a risk as to not be able to make enough income to pay dividends or earn a living, then what's the point? It's really hard to beat the traditional programs, and I think that the faculty member who gave me some thoughtful advice knew what she was talking about. When in doubt, go ask your elders who have a Ph.D. They would know because they've been through the job talks and have seen both sides of the coin. I'm young and stupid, I could tell myself that I can get the online Ph.D. and get a job and say to heck with all of them, they know nothing, but that would be foolish; the old gray-hairs have the wisdom to boot.

Isn't there a reason why the village elders run the village and not the village youths? Unfortunately, we young people just don't have the experience to understand or know the implications of certain actions or what would happen in the future because we haven't been there yet. For example, it wasn't until years later that an old guy told me that Tae Kwon Do used to have joint locks, throws, and some other grappling stuff that they used to teach before they started mass-marketing the Olympic style and introduced these new forms that weren't nearly of as much substance as the old ones were. Previously I had been brainwashed into thinking that the art was all punches and kicks. Do you know how frustrating that is to learn the truth after all these years? I had to find somebody who had done TKD before 1970 to discover this. All of the young guys didn't know crap except how to kick, punch, and spar. As a result, there are a generation of TKD black belts who don't even know how to bring someone to the ground or use any basic self-defense. I think TSD certainly kept more of the traditional element (they also rip off too many Japanese and Okinawan forms), but everybody knows the Olympic-style TKD with it's high flashy kicks, and that's NOT what the art is completely about. Another problem is these historical revisionists who keep rewriting the history of the art and claiming that martial arts originated in Korea, or that TKD is strictly a Korean art, or that TKD is 2000 years old. Talk to the old guys. Ask them where they learned Tae Kwon Do before 1955. It was basically merged from karate and taekkyon. The old guys know the truth, but too many of the young guys are brainwashed. One of my old instructors who is a young guy fell for the 2000-year-old myth, and I made it clear to correct him in class that what was on the cave walls was NOT what we call TKD today, but probably something similar that could be interpreted as a fighting form, but NOT TKD. He got a little flustered, but I could care less because hearing someone give the historical revisionist rant is worse for my brain than risking my own embarassment; if I want to hear abou mythology, I'll make sure to take a class on it next time it's offered at school. Ha ha ha; there is so much karate in TKD that it's ridiculous. The stances may be somewhat different and the technique delivery somewhat altered, but they are basically the same thing. I'm taking both, so I see where they might have been coming from when TKD was developed. A lot of it is from China anyway, so who cares whether it was Korean, Japanese, or Okinawan, as long as I'm learning something useful?

[Aikia]

Traditional degrees have been accepted in the US for a few hundred years. In a century or two maybe the on-line degrees will have equal value. For now you can't beat a traditional degree from a brick and mortar university with a certificate earned in cyberspace.

[kcfile]

Traditional degrees have been accepted in the US for a few hundred years. In a century or two maybe the on-line degrees will have equal value. For now you can't beat a traditional degree from a brick and mortar university with a certificate earned in cyberspace.

As I searched and said before, actually, there're a lot of traditional universities offered pure distance or online degrees by course work, e.g. Master in Construction Engineering offering by University of Washington, Seattle, USA, PhD, MPhil etc by University of South Africa or University of London, more and more ... etc. Their standing is the same as that of full time! I asked the course director of University of Washington who said the graduation diploma is the same as that of full time, NO difference. Also, the University of London always stressed external students being same standard of internal students. Moreover, as I heard, UK is developing a elearning platform for a netwrok of university partners, including University of Cambridge, to offer online degree programs.

Also, I believe classroom teaching is only suitable for bachelor degree, but not for post graduate courses. Research degrees depend on students efforts to consider new concepts developed from and around their lives, NOT within the walls of a classroom. Today, more employers in fact wish to recruit students with well working experience, instead of a graduate without life experience! Recently, I have interviewed two students. One has just completed a master course in a UK university as full time student for two years, while another is from University of London as external student completed its MSc(Eccon). I preferred to recuiting this guy who demonstrated tough and harsh to me because he could complete his master degree while working!

[Tom Yum]

Kcfile, Some graduate programs will not allow students to work outside the univeristy because their programs are technical and require work in labs. In areas like business or econ, it is perfectly legitimate.

Otherwise, I see what you mean.

[Aikia]

Some people feel that the correspondence degrees have real limitations. Buying the degree from a US company with a recognizable name may get you in the door. Buying your degree from a foriegn institution is going to draw attention, in a negative way. Increasingly I read where this master or that person has a degree from "Hong Kong"? Sometimes the only clear path is to just go ahead and do what you want to do. Pay the money, take the course, get the diploma. Get back in touch in a few years and let us know if it worked for you.