Bruce Lee Foundation - Official Jun Fan JKD

[ncgf]

Here is the PM I received this morning from Ashtanga05. He has issues with me posting the PM on the thread, but since there really is not personal information in it, I felt that the thread viewers/participants would be interested in it. Judge for yourselves.

Since you choose to post everything public that I send in private, do you not understand the 'concept' of private - guess not? Believe me I would never post what you said in private in a public forum.

What you would or would not do is of little consequence. Interesting that you would feign insult from my post when the the only reason I felt compelled to involve myself was your blatant disrespect of others and your claims of having trained with Mike. It was you who made these claims publically, brought my teachers (Mike, Jesse) into it, and in so doing showed them disrespect, all for your own ego gain.

Who cares what you think ? I did study under Mike Lee , I consider his skills GREATLY EXAGGERATED By people like Jesse Glover, being as good or close to Bruce Lee. Funny, Jesse says the same things now about Tommy Carruthers. Others have said the same about people like Howard Williams. I think Mike Lee was quite a good treacher though not great.

Lack of caring (apathy) would be followed by a lack of action. Obviously you care about what I think or you would not have felt compelled to reply with not one, but three PMs. And, again, your opinion of Mike's, Jesse's, or anyone else's abilities are irrelevant since you are a nobody in the martial arts, pedagogy, or exercise science and so have no basis for your criticisms other than your own insecurities and ego.

Like Howard Williams, Mike is bigger guy that moves well for his size, but knows a very limited amount of stuff, that he has practiced a lot.

Once again, what you believe is of no importance here. Since you have not demonstrated anything through your writings, or proof through a verified name, you are not in a place to be a valid judge. I find it interesting that you use the anonymity of the Internet to criticize others abilities yet you would have not done so in person. That is what we call cowardice. And before you equate your callout of Mike Lee (and many others in your PMs and on this thread) to my callout of you, mine is related not to your abilities or lack thereof (I have no way of knowing what your martial arts abilities are) but rather to your historical claims of who you trained under.

I learnt far more about fighting, chi sao, trapping, punching power & speed, etc from Emin Boztepe, and to be honest Mike's skills are a joke compasred to his. And even in his prime Emin would floor him in few seconds.

Well I certainly hope you learnt your Wing Chun materials better than you learnt your English (learnt...nice word...lol). What you learned from another person is extraneous to our conversation. I am not familiar with this Emin boztepe. However, I would offer that because someone executes well, that does not make them a good transmitter of that knowledge (to rephrase for the simple-minded, because they can fight doesnt mean they can teach..lol)

I asked who you are , as ypu may be well known Bullshitter or joke student of Mike Lee's, when I was there Mike had good students, and some I considered pathetic, I'm betting from your tone you are in the latter group.

What you consider is inconsequential. Again, you question the abilities or lack thereof of others, but you yourself have not demonstrated that you have any. You have also not proven yet, that you even trained with those you have claimed. The great strength of the Internet is its anonymity..that, too, is its great weakness. Who did you say you were again?...lol.

If you want proof who I am , and that I have studied with him, I can even email you photos of myself with him. Dates trained with him, where, etc.

Please send this information. It will be appreciated.

Not trying to reverse anything as you put it, I merely asked and you are? Introduce yourself, first as you are asking me & I have no idea who you are.

Of course you are trying to reverse it. You are attempting to take the focus off yourself. You are the ones who made the claims. As such, it is incumbent on you to prove those claims. You identify yourself, and I will follow suit.

I am assuming you are pot bellied, old & very out of shape student of Mike Lee's who probably drinks a six pack as regular training for his forearms, but then again I could be wrong.

Even if I am a pot-bellied, old, and out of shape, it doesnt invaildate my questions to you, now does it? Ad hominem attacks are merely an attempt to redirect attention away from you and your lack of proof. Who I am or what kind of condition I am in is irrelevant to my questions.

If you choose to put this and every 'private' message of mine in public forum, I'll simpy ignore you from now on. If you want proof I trained with Mike Lee, will give you ample proof and email you photos - first introduce yourself , you are the one coming to me with the accusations, at least introduce yourself & so I can see you yourself are not a complete fraud.

You may do as you wish. You are the one who chose to take your questionable claims public. I am merely continuing what you started. if you have nothing to hide, if your claims are honest and true, then there should be no problems. Any "proof" you are willing to give would be appreciated and teh "proof" would be kept private. So far, there has been no "proof" given by you that actually identifies anything about you. Nothing I have posted further identifies any personal information in regards to you, so exactly what do you have a problem with me posting about you so far?

As for saying you have never heard of Gary Dill, like I said I assume you are pot bellied very out of shape old guy who hasn't been actively involved in martial arts for many years. Anyone in JKD knows who he is.

And who said I was in JKD? You have made a flawed assumption. Not everyone involves themselves in other arts, or even the politics of their own art.

I have nothing whatsover to hide, but as you are posting everything public I send you in private, I 'm not giving my name, address, training place, etc so you can stick it up on a public forum.

If you tell me who you are, I can assure you I will certainly not put your details up on this or any other public forum. I will however, confirm to the forum that you have trained with the people you claim to have trained with, and to the extent you have maintained. This would only serve to vaildate your position. However, lack of this evidence has the opposite effect, and invalidates you.

I respect your privacy, and to voice wild accusations in the first place on a public forum, when you could have mailed me privately first & asked shows you have ZERO INTEGRITY!

To reiterate, you are the one who chose to take your questionable claims public. You are the one who dragged my teachers names into your foray. I am merely continuing what you started. If you have nothing to hide, if your claims are honest and true, then there should be no problems. It is interesting that you "respect" my privacy. This would be the first time I have seen respect from you, since your posts are void of it. It was disrespectful of you to drag Mike Lee's and Jesse Glover's names into you base argument for the purpose of trying to vaildate yourself.

You forgot to consider one vital thing too, why would I claim to have studied under Mike Lee if I hadn't, when he is not actually that good, and I could have chosen better martial artist and more well known ? His skills are greatly exaggerated & he has very limited knowledge overall. If I wanted to falsely claim I trained with someone I would have chosen a much better martial artist than him; I still have some old video with Mike Lee doing stuff, nobody I've shown it too is particularly impressed with his abilities, anymore than they are after seeing the likes of Howard Williams. Believe me after training with Mike, I don't consider it something to shout about, he is not a great martial artist & don't consider him that good; if he had gone public more & did seminars others would see for themselves, his knowledge is very limited and his skills not that good. !

Actually, that Mike is not well known would serve a fraud a better advantage than claiming a well-known teacher. less people to know that person was misrepresenting themself. Your opinion of anyones skills does not matter since you have not established yourself as an expert in the field. Being a student of Wing Chun for a couple of years hardly qualifies you to make any judgements..lol. If you have a video, then why not post it on the Internet and let each person judge for themselves what Mike's abilities were. I suppose we should take your "expert" opinion on that one, too...lol.

Again, and you are - introduce yourself? As you are the one coming with the accusations. Then I will aptly prove to you I did indeed train with Mike Lee. If you don't want to introduce yourself, or to post this on public forum again, no problem I won't respond to you again.

By the way , showing some respect & learning some integrity are virtues you could well learn. !

I will provide the information you requested once you have acted upon my request. As I stated before, youa re the one who claimed Mike Lee's and Jesse Glover's name in an attemot to validate yourself. I am merely following up on your claims.

You didn't have to respond to my thread post initially, but you felt the need to. You do not have to provide any further responses if that is your wish.

Interesting you would make another statement about respect. Can we say hypocritical...lol. You can question others in a disrepectful manner, but when someone asks reasonable questions in regards to your claims, you perceive it as disrespectful. Intriguing perspective.

NCGF

Again, just for your edification and peace of mind, anything which could possibly identify who you are (photos, email) will be kept private. please forward those to me. Per your other email, I will send your name to Mike for confirmation if I do not recognize it

[Kirves]

I would never want to meet, not to mention study under someone who talks about people like Ashtanga does. So much disrespect and hatred towards everyone who disagrees with anything he says. I could'nt care less if he's for real or fake, few people like his kind of people.

[ncgf]

Here is this indiviudals PM to me and my response. please use the information to make your own mind up in regards to this inidividual.

I did indeed train with Mike Lee , and you are name? Or website link, then I will tell you my details. I am no longer in touch with Mike Lee by the way, assume you are not either? Heard also Jesse isn't even in touch with him now either.

By the way, you don't know everyone Mike trained with , how long do you claim to have studied with him?

When I trained with him , he was still teaching, later I heard he stopped, but never had contact details to ask him when he moved.

I sincerely hope you are not that well known FRAUD & BOGUS JKD Instructor & Psuedo Authority - Chris Sutton? About as credible as Gary Dill, and thats not very credible by the way. Chris & Gary both have similar martial art abilities, both are crap , but try to pass themselves off as deadly masters. You need only look at the way either moves, to see how poor they really are, and how little in the way of real hard traing they have really done.

While I know Chris, I am unfamiliar with this Dill fellow. From your description it seems that you would be of similar ilk to the characteristics you ascribe to those men you mentioned.

As to providing my information to you, since I requested yours first, it only stands to reason that you should proceed first. I have seen that it is a common ploy of those who are frauds to attempt to reverse the focus of the conversation, as you are attempting to do here.

Moreover, nothing you have said convinces me you were a student of Mike Lees. Your misstatement about Mike's method is cause enough for my concern as to your veracity (Novo vs NOVA).

I do know how to get in touch with him when and if the need arises. Yes, I do know where he is living.

You have shown yourself to lack respect and be a person of questionable character. As such, I would be worried about one as such as you having acces to my personal information. You seem to be one who lacks self-control and self-discipline.

I will be posting your pm and my response to allow those who you have been verbally insulting to make their own judgements.

Please feel free to provide the information I requested. If not, then there will be no way for me to verify your claim and will assume it was a fraudulent one.

NCGF

[Garland]

Ashtanga,

While I have no interest in getting into the politics of this thread and know nothing about the other people you claim you have trained with, I have to question your claim of training with Mike Lee.

As one of his senior students I feel it is my responsibility to look out for him and Jesse (whom i also trained with). I would surely know who you are and be able to verify that you did, in fact train with him. I am sure you can tell me where he is currently living since you spent two years with our group.

At this point I have to believe that you are one of the very martial arts frauds you yourself speak of, at least as far as Mike goes. I have my doubts whether you truly trained with Mike for the time you claim, especially since his method was called NOVA not novo. And while I might suspect a typo, the o and the a are no where near each other on the keyboard. Surely one of Mikes long time students would not make this sort of mistake.

You must be up there in age (old like me), since Mike has not taught in a very long time and did not have any young (child) students.

Please private message me and let me know when you trained with him. If I am wrong I will offer my apology and get reacquainted with a former student. Since Mike was very selective about whom he taught, my guess is you were not one of his students, that you will not contact me per my request, and that you are in fact one of the martial arts charletons so prevalent online.

If this is the case, I would think it would also call into question the integrity of your other martial arts claims.

NCGF

the plot thickens...
who is ash? kaiser sose?

[ncgf]

Ashtanga,

While I have no interest in getting into the politics of this thread and know nothing about the other people you claim you have trained with, I have to question your claim of training with Mike Lee.

As one of his senior students I feel it is my responsibility to look out for him and Jesse (whom i also trained with). I would surely know who you are and be able to verify that you did, in fact train with him. I am sure you can tell me where he is currently living since you spent two years with our group.

At this point I have to believe that you are one of the very martial arts frauds you yourself speak of, at least as far as Mike goes. I have my doubts whether you truly trained with Mike for the time you claim, especially since his method was called NOVA not novo. And while I might suspect a typo, the o and the a are no where near each other on the keyboard. Surely one of Mikes long time students would not make this sort of mistake.

You must be up there in age (old like me), since Mike has not taught in a very long time and did not have any young (child) students.

Please private message me and let me know when you trained with him. If I am wrong I will offer my apology and get reacquainted with a former student. Since Mike was very selective about whom he taught, my guess is you were not one of his students, that you will not contact me per my request, and that you are in fact one of the martial arts charletons so prevalent online.

If this is the case, I would think it would also call into question the integrity of your other martial arts claims.

NCGF

[jeff5]

Internet tough guys like Ash are really cool! And quite frightening I might add.

[Tim McFatridge]

As for your offer, if it had been somebody good I would have taken you up on the offer. Larry 'Pot Belly Need To Practice What I Preach & Train Harder & Lay Off the Damm Beer for a While' Hartsell - I don't regard as being good by a long shot!

Larry doesn't do much of what Bruce Lee taught, in all his books & videos (read & seen them all) he does little of what Bruce Lee actually taught, most of it is what he studied since.

He moves with the fluidity & grace of John Goodman attempting to do martial arts.

Sure he is good at grappling that he specialises in, so what? Many are much better than him at it, and quite a bit of his grappling does not look real combat effective. Sure he can handle himself too, but he is not that great a fighter nobody can move that clumsily and be that good a fighter.

Besides, he did not study that much directly with Bruce Lee, not as much as he would like you to believe anyway; most of his knowledge came after from Dan Inosanto, etc.

You are actually having to pay Larry to do a seminar? Just buy his DVD's/Videos have a good laugh at them, and save yourself serious money in the process - makes sense I hope?

Ash...did you not say just after this post that you were not running anyone down or bad mouthing anyone...that you were speaking the truth. After reading the above post from you I would have to say that you are doing your best to run Larry down. As for him not being able to move around well and only being good at grappling you are sadly mistaken. Agree he does not move around like a 30 something martial artist but thats because he is 64...but I can promise you that he can still cause a world of hurt without going to the ground. Why don't you come on out and issue a challenge to me...? you think you are so freaking bad sitting behind the computer. Sorry to everyone else reading this becuase this is so not me...but Ash you have really pissed me off by coming on here and constantly running your mouth about people you know nothing about...not first hand, personal experience anyway. If you are not willing to let me pay your way to come in and train with Larry because you think he is too old and is not worth the time then how about letting me pay your way to come into fort worth and give me a few of your valuable lessons on actual combat? How about you coming to fort worth and you and I will walk onto the mat, shut the door behind us and lets see how freaking good you really are...lets see if all that Tae Kwon Do that you know is combat effective...lets see how effective the WT is for you or how about even the Krav Maga..lets see if you are able to make use of any of the training you have under your belt...if you do this it will all be video taped so I can post it on here for all to see just how big of a bad ass you really are. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO TAKE ME UP ON THE OFFER OF FLYING YOU IN THEN I AM WILLING TO FLY TO WHERE YOU ARE... in order to get that lesson from you. Either way it will be video taped and we will see who knows what. It is entirely up to you...put up or shut up you egotistical,smart mouth no nothing little punk. I am willing to put up my money to bring you in or fly me to you...all you gotta do is give the word and I'm there...

[jubaji]

If Bruce Lee were alive I'm sure he would do the same, or go round there place & beat the crap out of them.

Well then you, as self-appointed dead-guy nut-sucker should take up his work and do just that, big mouth.

[jubaji]

Actually I've done a heck of a lot more than I put down in terms of training, but I put the bulk of my formal training.

I've met martial artists from many arts, trained with them , exchanged techniques , etc , I've not put down any of that, it would run into few pages.
]

Ai-ya, what a fucking clown this punk is!

[Garland]

Tim McFartidge,

My experience :-
Tae Kwon Do 2nd Degree Black Belt 4 years.
Non Classical Gung Fu / Novo 2 years with Mike Lee (Jesse's Glovers brother)
Wing Tsun 3 year private student Emin Boztepe
Wing Tsun Formal Classes (EWTO) 5 years (was doing private lessons with Emin at this time) 3rd Degree TG Technician.


Seminars :-

TKD, misc. Gung fu, and fucking Wing Tsun?
you've got to be fucking kidding me.
Seminars mean nothing, asshole.

Oh, yeah...by the way I didn't see any JKD training up there...so that means your knowledge of what JKD should be is self taught. You read a couple of books, saw a movie or two, and now you're a goddamned expert?

[ASHTANGA05]

Excessive Force,

By the way I am certainly not trolling as you put it, merely expressing my opinion. The martial arts world is full of frauds & bogus Instructors, or those teaching any old crap & calling it JKD - a lot of them in JKD that are giving it a real bad name , and destroying Bruce Lee's martial art. Not running down anyone, just telling it like it is. If Bruce Lee were alive I'm sure he would do the same, or go round there place & beat the crap out of them.

[ASHTANGA05]

Excessive Force,

Actually I've done a heck of a lot more than I put down in terms of training, but I put the bulk of my formal training.

I've met martial artists from many arts, trained with them , exchanged techniques , etc , I've not put down any of that, it would run into few pages.

4 years to 2nd Degree you mentioned? You think too long or too short a time? In ITF Tae Kwon Do 2 years to Black 1st is average for good student , and obviously you are required to wait to do 2nd Degree & so forth, even if you know the material for 2nd you can not do it soon after 1st.

http://freespace.virgin.net/itfpromotion.committee/rules.html

[eXcessiveForce]

Enough trolling,

expressing your opinion is one thing, running down other martial artists is another.

on a side note,

4 years to 2nd degree blackbelt? you are kidding right. Seems you have a very limited training time. Perhaps more training would benefit you more and less reading.

[ASHTANGA05]

Tim McFartidge,

My experience :-
Tae Kwon Do 2nd Degree Black Belt 4 years.
Non Classical Gung Fu / Novo 2 years with Mike Lee (Jesse's Glovers brother)
Wing Tsun 3 year private student Emin Boztepe
Wing Tsun Formal Classes (EWTO) 5 years (was doing private lessons with Emin at this time) 3rd Degree TG Technician.


Seminars :-

General Choi & son Choi Jung Hwa - Tae Kwon Do / Hee Il Cho Tae Kwon Do / Eyal Yanilov Krav Maga / William Cheung (Wing Chun) / Keith Kernspecht WT / Leung Ting WT / Dan Inosanto (various BS mainly 1001 techniques type seminars) / Paul Vunak / Jesse Glover / Ted Wong / Patrick Strong / Ted Wong.

Also met several JKD Concepts guys whilst doing WT , often they would go to further their WT training they felt they were missing a lot.

Obviously read a great deal , practically everything out there on BL & JKD; seen hundreds of videos on it also.

Incidentally, as you claim Dan does not regard all the arts he does as being JKD, he released several video tapes titled 'Jeet Kune Do' that teach all those different arts under the name 'JKD'! How wrong you are. He chose the titles not the manufacturers by the way.

[ASHTANGA05]

Kirves,

If you must use anyone to try back up your points, please refrain from using Joe 'The Human Turd' Lewis! It helps greatly, thanks.

Joe is legendary like Bob Wall for 'sugarcoating the insults' to Bruce Lee - Bruce was fast but couldn't land, he was great technician but really couldn't fight, etc.

Worse Joe frequently contradicts himself in interviews.

Bottom line - he is jealous of being in Bruce Lee's shadow, and always will be ; and he hates being considered a lesser to him as a martial artist & fighter.

When Bruce was around, Joe never dared say any of the BS he now does on BL, derogatory comments, etc.

In the interview you post link too, eyewitnesses saw Bruce and Joe spar but he denies it as Bruce knocked him all around his backyard. He did the same with Chuck Norris. Joe says none of the champions sparred with Bruce Lee - even if he denies they did, Chuck Norris freely admits they did spar!

Despite , Legendary Fighter, self proclaimed Greatest Fighter of All Time, Joe never was that good! His point fighting days he was a JOKE compared to Chuck Norris , etc , and Joe had very limited technique. In full contact, his record is nothing great, and he looked more like a second rate boxer that threw a few kicks.

Besides, can you imagine someone of Joe Lewis's massive ego studying under someone like Bruce Lee, that he didn't regard as much of a fighter or that great a martial artist?