Bruce Lee Foundation - Official Jun Fan JKD

[Garland]

Name any student under Dan Inosanto that actively teaches any art Dan Inosanto does not teach or fully endorse? As if they are just studying the arts Dan recommends that is a 'classical mess'.

Dan is Filipino , hence hefty dose of Filipino arts. What about Korean or Japanese arts? Are the only arts Dan has as a core art , the only effective ones out there?

Why can't any of the so called Concepts group move remotely like Bruce Lee? They just look like MMA type guys. Even some basic JKD techniques you rarely see performed properly by them. And admist the rush of learning 10,001 techniques from several systems they've neglected to practice as they term it 'Jun Fan' very hard - they lack explosiveness, and haven't drilled the basics hard.

Okay, I'll name a noteable one, you fucking ****.
Burton Richardson...trains a bunch of obscure stuff.

Dan's being Filipino is the reason he includes the FMA? Is he Brazillian and Thai too? Maybe a bit of French? The FMA are EFFECTIVE, that's why they're included...you asshole.

JKD guys lack explosiveness? Who the hell are YOU people? Show me, here's the challenge; you presume to know what Guro Dan's students look like...but I have no clue what the hell you guys look like. Go on youtube.com and post a video. M'kay?

[aseepish]

Ashtanga, you have to go back and read your Krishnaumuti.

Here, if you like: http://www.straightblastgym.com/freedom.htm

[ASHTANGA05]

Garland,

Seriously might be good idea to quit now, you're trying to hard to push the point you are an ignorant turd.

Jun Fan was from the period 1964-1967, Jeet Kune Do was from 1967 onwards to 1973. You say JKD has no techniques its a concept? Well, from '67 onwards there was definitely a curriculum, and specific techniques - it certainly was not an excuse to just go study any old martial art.

Jun Fan Gung Fu as Bruce Lee called it was BEFORE the creation of JKD & the term JKD came into existance. Remember too there was a period before Jun Fan also, when Bruce Lee first arrived in the U.S. up to 1964.

Bruce Lee evolved constantly the 64-67 period has some great material, but Bruce refined, innnovated, added, and discarded even more after that from 67 onwards.

The JKD Concepts people that claim to be doing Jun Fan therefore strictly speaking are only concentrating on a period of a mere 3 years, what about before then, or more to the point after then? Go ask someone like Ted Wong his last private student on the significance of the material from 67 onwards & how it differed from 64-67.

Name any student under Dan Inosanto that actively teaches any art Dan Inosanto does not teach or fully endorse? As if they are just studying the arts Dan recommends that is a 'classical mess'.

Dan is Filipino , hence hefty dose of Filipino arts. What about Korean or Japanese arts? Are the only arts Dan has as a core art , the only effective ones out there?

Why can't any of the so called Concepts group move remotely like Bruce Lee? They just look like MMA type guys. Even some basic JKD techniques you rarely see performed properly by them. And admist the rush of learning 10,001 techniques from several systems they've neglected to practice as they term it 'Jun Fan' very hard - they lack explosiveness, and haven't drilled the basics hard.

[Garland]

Garland,

I would assume you have never seen real JKD or you would not 'talk out your botty' so much.

Bruce would have added things to JKD or changed things of course, but certainly not to the extent of Inosanto - any old art under the sun & call it JKD , or follow trends; BJJ became big Dan got into it, if Capoiera had dominated the early UFC's etc & bwcame big, he would have jumped to study it.

Again who knows more about JKD than the founder himself??? He looked at Thai Boxing & Escrima and took a dim view of them, that tells you what????? Think about it. He did not include techniques from either in JKD. In 3000+ papers left behid he scarcely mentions Thai boxing, & no mention of Escrima. If Bruce Lee the founder looked at those arts & did not include them in JKD suffice to say he had very logical & strong reasons! So who is anyone else to say 'well Bruce looked at this & discarded this, but what the heck I'll include, who cares what the founder did or said on the subject'. If they want to study Thai Boxing, Filipino Arts, Savate, etc good for them just don't mislead people calling it JKD.

If JKD is just go off and study several diff . martial arts & Jun Fan, then any MMA guy is a JKD guy.

Besides Inosanto is very knowledgable on martial arts, but there is a lot out there he hasn't been exposed to that much , & that is effective that he doesn't practice. Students under him are bound in a 'Classical Mess' studying arts only Dan recommends or studies in depth himself.

As for you saying JKD is Wing Chun based etc; it looks nothing like Wing Chun & shows you are rather ignorant on the subject.

Yeah, guess not. What the **** is REAL JKD? You pompous, ignorant little shit. Enlighten me, smartass. You and your cronies come on here, and bash the only link to Bruce Lee's dream-through Guro Inosanto, and try to preach that we need to stick to what Bruce taught at the time of his death? That wasn't the idea...he was progressive.

Yeah, if capoeria proved to be an effective fighting art...I'm sure Guro Dan would've started the wheels in motion to make it part of what he has taught at his academy...isn't encorporating effective techniques and arts part of the JKD thing? Dur...you're a stubborn little fucker, aren't you?

I would like to see EXACTLY what you're talking about. (And what the LOGICAL reasons...throw some out here, buddy!) What arts did he endorse? I have never seen a document penned by Sigung Lee bashing any of those arts...in fact he sorta endorses training them in "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do". So...show me otherwise...give me evidence to the contrary, or are you just running your mouth?

Every MMA guy trains Jun Fan? Really? They study and apply Bruce Lee's philsophies and try to (intentionally) encorporate his concepts about particular aspects of fighting into their game??? If that's the case...then, yeah...they all train JKD...but that's not the case.

Which arts should the "true" JKD encompass then. And FYI...Students under Dan study whatever they want...trust me. They are encouraged to do whatever they want and apply it to themselves...have you ever met him?
You're probably one of those sweaty, obese, hairy palmed internet anal agitators who thinks they know everything about the martial arts because they read a few of Bruce Lee's books and watched all of his movies. You know NOTHING.

JKD is NOT A STYLE...it has NO TECHNIQUES...it is simply a bunch of concepts and theories people try to apply to their game to become better fighters and better martial artists.
Jun Fan gung fu is wing chun based....... you're a fucking idiot.

I'm suprised you people made it this far in life without being hit by cars. Seriously...it'd be interesting to do some tests on you stubborn fucks, who deny all logic and reason (not to mention compassion for Bruce's wishes and tryng to kill his still living dream) for you're own pretentious reasons, with a skinner box and a hot stove. Tell you Bruce did it, and see how long you'd keep your hand on the stove.

[Kirves]

Wasn't JKD supposed to be about personal growth as a fighter? Meaning different fighters took it different directions, because it was all about going personal and not blindly following what some tradition or master did? Why would a fighter treat Lee any different than any other master or tradition?

[ASHTANGA05]

Garland,

I would assume you have never seen real JKD or you would not 'talk out your botty' so much.

Bruce would have added things to JKD or changed things of course, but certainly not to the extent of Inosanto - any old art under the sun & call it JKD , or follow trends; BJJ became big Dan got into it, if Capoiera had dominated the early UFC's etc & bwcame big, he would have jumped to study it.

Again who knows more about JKD than the founder himself??? He looked at Thai Boxing & Escrima and took a dim view of them, that tells you what????? Think about it. He did not include techniques from either in JKD. In 3000+ papers left behid he scarcely mentions Thai boxing, & no mention of Escrima.

If Bruce Lee the founder looked at those arts & did not include them in JKD suffice to say he had very logical & strong reasons!

So who is anyone else to say 'well Bruce looked at this & discarded this, but what the heck I'll include, who cares what the founder did or said on the subject'. If they want to study Thai Boxing, Filipino Arts, Savate, etc good for them just don't mislead people calling it JKD.

If JKD is just go off and study several diff . martial arts & Jun Fan, then any MMA guy is a JKD guy.

Besides Inosanto is very knowledgable on martial arts, but there is a lot out there he hasn't been exposed to that much , & that is effective that he doesn't practice. Students under him are bound in a 'Classical Mess' studying arts only Dan recommends or studies in depth himself.

As for you saying JKD is Wing Chun based etc; it looks nothing like Wing Chun & shows you are rather ignorant on the subject.

[kooky]

...from a fortune cookie I once had....."the philosophy of yesterday is the common sense of tomorrow"

[Garland]

On top of that, Guro Dan was Bruce Lee's senior student at the time of his death...wouldn't he know better than anyone how to interpret Sigung's intentions? Who else would? You guys? Who spearheads this, and what makes them more "official" than Guro Inosanto?

[Garland]

Ash...IF you're right, then Bruce Lee was fucking blind. IF Bruce Lee was alive today and took a dim view of what is now considered to be one of the most successful blendings of arts, over the stagnant and rigid wing chun variants he was practicing as Jun Fan Gung Fu, he was nothing more than a philosopher and would've kept the martial arts crystalized back where they were in the 1970's.

I think Bruce was smarter than you give him credit for...because, to be perfectly candid, the JKD you're talking about sucks...and it's not the IDEA of JKD that I know. So...go play with your nunchuacks and strike poses while doing cat calls...but don't call it an art. If you'd rather limit yourself the Jun Fan stuff to a T and try to mimic Bruce Lee's movie parts...then you've missed the point. I'll stick with my JKD, you can have yours.

[ASHTANGA05]

Tim,

By the way I am certainly not 'attacking' Dan Inosanto.

It is the Bruce Lee Foundation (the subject of this thread) who stripped him of the rights to use Bruce Lee/ Jun Fan/ JKD terms & likeness, etc; also it is them who are actively trying to reverse more than 30 years of damage done to Bruce Lee's martial art (which they largely or exclusively attribute to the Inosanto group).

The responsbility or damage done in my opinion often lies with those under Inosanto, Vunak, Burton Richardson, etc have all brought out books & videos/DVD's which contain very little of Bruce Lee's art but a hefty dose of other arts - BJJ, Muay Thai, Escrima, etc. They have always used 'JKD' term, 'Bruce Lee' name a lot of his likeness to sell them, and often are very misleading indeed. Many are buying them thinking, 'so this is Bruce Lee's martial art', basically MMA just stick a bunch of arts together & it is misleading for sure. Some of these VHS/DVD's even talk on Bruce Lee a lot & mention his art & Jun Fan but teach very little if any of it e.g. 'Jun Fan Kickboxing Vol.1' & Vol.2 Paul Vunak (Panther Video) - boxing punches NOT BL's punches, stuff from Savate , Panatukan, etc.

It seems to some of Inosanto's students are not that knowledgable on Jun Fan, & have rushed to learn all those other arts as well, Richard Bustillo has comented on that factor in interviews. And in all honesty, I have never seen one student under Inosanto that moves really well in Jun Fan as they term it or looks that good in it - or looks like they have really trained the techniques hard & followed BL's training methods on speed & power, etc e.g. Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, Butron Richardson, etc - all are good at what they do no question, but when I see them doing Jun Fan they look mediocre at best , no explosiveness nor sharpness in technique, often they just look like MMA / Thai Boxers / Kickboxers doing JKD. Like Ron Balicki in his Jun Fan DVD's - often just looks like MMA guy, no explosiveness, he telegraphs, and clearly hasn't practiced Jun Fan all that hard. Sure he is good at what he does was Shootfighter, certified in diff. arts, etc - he just doesn't look all that sharp to me in Jun Fan. When JKD Concepts spar they look like MMA people to me, certainly they don't look like they have studied Bruce Lee's martial art, nor move remotely like him.

If there is anyone under Inosanto or trained by him that you regard as really good at Jun Fan & looks like he has trained it hard , please post link to videoclip I'd be interested to see it. I'm not saying they aren't out there, just that in all honesty I have never seen one & I've seen a heck of a lot of them.

[ASHTANGA05]

Tim,

Do you read much? Guess not. Bruce took a dim view of Thai Boxing & Escrima ; on Thai Boxing - Commentaries on the Martial Way pg.42 cons of Thai Boxing & he referred to them as the John L. Sullivan of the leg. On Escrima he described it as & I quote 'bullshit' , 'flashy shit', 'flashy stick routine' he thought it looked good for the movies though.

John Little has gone on record as saying that in the 3000 written by Bruce Lee, he makes no reference to Escrima nor endorses it at all.

Dan Inosanto recounts 'As early as 1964 at the first Internationals, I had introduced Bruce to the art of Escrima. At that time however he took a pretty dim view of it'.

On Thai Boxing again he certainly took a dim view of it , & felt the cons far outweighed the pros. In 3000+ papers he left behind scarcely a mention of it.

Some JKD Concepts people like to assert Bruce incorparated a lot of Thai Boxing in JKD, the truth is he did not - not even a single technique. He thought their kicking was weak also , powerful but weak in execution delivery & recovery, etc.

If Bruce had lived would he have studied Thai Boxing or Filipino Arts more , or practiced the whole arts, or added a lot from them to JKD - no way! He saw a lot of these arts, and took a dim view of them.

As he was the founder of JKD , one has to ask if he took a dim view of Thai Boxing, should or is there a need for modern JKD people to study the whole art of Thai Boxing?

Do the techniques from Muay Thai fit the structure of JKD, or oppose it? If one is to say they fit - then the obvious why did Bruce not include any of it? Needless to say he had reasons & sound ones at that.

As for Dan Inosanto teaching separate JKD / Jun Fan classes , I'm well aware he does. But how many of his Worldwide students or people in his organisation attend them regularly? Very few indeed. A lot of his Worldwide students and representatives train mainly through seminars, maybe travel to CA to train with him sometimes, and have their own group to practice the material with.

Also Dan Inosanto no doubt could do a full seminar on nothing but Jun Fan JKD , but he seldom does, and is rarely asked to. Often seminar host is asked what they would like covered. Seminars I attended with Dan & I spoke to seminar host - they said teach whatever you want to him & less than 5% over 2 days was on Bruce Lee's martial art. Rest was all Thai Boxing, Kali, Shootfighting, BJJ, etc.

[aku aku]

There's one thing I don't understand about the "Original" JKD thing, maybe you can give me your reactions or explain it better.

As I understand it, Bruce's art was always changing and evolving. The art he did one year was different than the art he did the next year and, if he were still alive, his art now would be different than his art back then. Bruce was concerned primarily with being an effective fighter and he made his feelings about traditional arts quite clear; that they were stagnant, outdated, refuse to change or evolve, etc.

Bruce used to say things like "Utilize all ways and be bound by none". He also said something like "It's only a name, don't fuss over it." and I was told that he later regretted even giving jkd a name. When Bruce died, it seems like the ojkd people kind of froze his art in time instead of continuing with the development process. They're saying "This is jkd and that isn't". Now we have a list of what is and what isn't jkd and the list will never change because Bruce isn't here to make the changes. Where Bruce was concerned only with combat effectiveness, the ojkd people seem more concerned with historical accuracy. It seems that jkd has become the very thing that it's founder had rebelled against.

[Tim McFatridge]

ASHTANGA, you are correct that at Dan's schools he does teach alot of different systems.However you are missing one thing...and that is he still teaches Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do...all you have to do is sign up and take the class. In that class you will learn Jun Fan. They do not mix Kali,BJJ,Shoot,Thai Boxing or any other art as you have mentioned. I live in Texas but travel to L.A. yearly in order to train with my instructor Larry Hartsell at the Inosanto Academy and I have been in the Jun Fan class and can tell you that when you are in there they are not adding a bunch of different stuff to it as you mentioned. Again when you see Dan or any of these guys really at a seminar they are teaching what the seminar host wants them to teach. As for your comment that Bruce had a very dim view on Thai Boxing and Escrima...you need to go back and check your source and do your own research and see. Bruce thought thai boxing was very effective and liked the kicks and the elbows. He also liked escrima and encouraged Dan to investigate the Filipino arts further but warned him not to be bound by them because he was Filipino. Also Bruce studied Jiu Jistu under Professor Wally Jay (Small Circle Jiu Jitsu) and Judo from Gene LeBell and at the time of Bruce's death he had 33 formal grappling moves/techniques that he trained and taught. If you do not think he did any grappling watch the move Enter the Dragon and you will see him do a armbar that most people would say was Jiu Jitsu. Bruce encouraged Larry Hartsell to go out and investigate the grappling arts since Larry was already a black belt in Judo when he started training with Bruce. He also looked into Silat as well. I am of the Dan Inosanto lineage that you spoke of and I can tell you that I do train Kali and Escrima but I DO NOT teach them in my Hun Fan/JKD class they are taught in my FMA classes. I also study Jiu Jitsu, Sambo and Catch and when I teach them I make it very clear what I am showing. I do not teach them in my Jun Fan class. I do take certain techniques from each art and and blend them together but I do not call it JKD, I call it Integrated Grappling. So please for future post do not make assumptions like the previous ones you have made about all the students in the Inosanto lineage. You have specific people in mind that you have trained with then say that, if you do not have first hand experience training under Dan personally than do not attack him that just ain't cool. I have heard alot of bad things about Ted Wong and Lamar Davis and even some in the "Concept" camp but I will not attack them personally because I have not personally trained with them.

Just a thought.

[Garland]

If JKD is just studying any old art , and cross training in several , then any MMA guy is doing JKD, and there was no real point/significance/uniqueness to Bruce Lee's approach to martial arts.

People in the so called 'Concepts' method are NOT doing this , they are studying WHOLE ARTS not just taking a few techniques that fit the structure of JKD - they study ALL Thai Boxing / All BJJ Brazilian JJ / All Filipino Martial Arts , etc (see Inosanto site , no less than 10! Core Arts). Anyone saying all techniques from those arts fit the structure of JKD - is deluded!

Besides the founder took a very dim view of Thai Boxing, Escrima for example.

If JKD is studying all those arts then take away Jun Fan & you still have JKD , what is it essential for, at least according to their logic.

If that is truly JKD, then any video on Cross Training or MMA is JKD also (even without the JKD name or BL picture on the cover).

1) Bruce Lee's concepts about taking techniques from many martial arts preceeded the whole MMA craze. It was a novel idea at it's conception, and, like all good ideas it's essentially been re-expressed, this time by the MMA pioneers looking to become better combat athletes. So yeah, I'd say there are indisputable parallels.

2) They study the whole arts seperately, not as part of JKD. They can later encorporate those techniques that best suit them and their purposes and attributes into their own game...if JKD is simply what Bruce Lee taught before his death...how fucking practical would it be now? Even if what you say about Guro Dan and his lineage is true...I'd argue he did a whole lot more to create a better system of training multiple arts and utilizing their techniques in an efficient and personal manner than Bruce did during his lifetime. Guro Inosanto picked up where Bruce left off.

3) I don't buy that, cite your source.

4) JKD is not a series of techniques, it is simply a framework of how to organize and utilize tools found in martial arts systems, as well as philosophies on fighting in general, i.e. timing, rythm, and strategies and tactics, i.e. the whole ABC, ABD, etc...

5) A rose by any other name.

[ASHTANGA05]

Garland,

Define the 'Concept' you speak of? Read my posts here :-

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=21366

JKD IS NOT MMA , big difference.

If JKD is just studying any old art , and cross training in several , then any MMA guy is doing JKD, and there was no real point/significance/uniqueness to Bruce Lee's approach to martial arts.

Bruce Lee laid out certain principles for JKD , even if you say add a lot to what he was doing in his lifetime; it has to fit in with the existing structure.

People in the so called 'Concepts' method are NOT doing this , they are studying WHOLE ARTS not just taking a few techniques that fit the structure of JKD - they study ALL Thai Boxing / All BJJ Brazilian JJ / All Filipino Martial Arts , etc (see Inosanto site , no less than 10! Core Arts). Anyone saying all techniques from those arts fit the structure of JKD - is deluded!

Besides the founder took a very dim view of Thai Boxing, Escrima for example.

If JKD is studying all those arts then take away Jun Fan & you still have JKD , what is it essential for, at least according to their logic.

As in above link to posts - its a real problem people in Inosanto's lineage are releasing DVD's/books with techniques mainly or exclusively from those 10 core arts & calling in JKD, many have picture of Bruce Lee on cover or make refernce to him in them often. It is misleading & ultimately damaging to Bruce Lee's martial art. If that is truly JKD, then any video on Cross Training or MMA is JKD also (even without the JKD name or BL picture on the cover).