Inosanto and Bustillo teaching method

[KenJeet]

I have come to a point in my training where I must make a very difficult decision. I have been training at an Inosanto affiliated school in Miami for about 1 year and hold the rank of Junior 1st Rank. However, the head instructor only teaches group classes. If you want to take some private classes in addition to your group classes, you must do it with one of his apprentice instructors. I have been doing just that for about a year. I have been taking one group class and one private per week. However, whenever I pick up some kind of magazine or anything on Jeet Kune Do, I often see some of the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus guys such as Chris Kent, Richard Bustillo, and Ted Wong, giving very detailed explanations on footwork, strategy, and proper execution of your natural weapons. After consistently reading all of these very detailed explanations, I have begun to wonder if I am not receiving the detail that is what defines JKD- efficiency, non-telegraphic movement, footwork, simplicity, economy of motion, etc. Up to now, the classes that I have been attending at the Inosanto affiliated school, are the phase classes that are comprised of approximately 30 minutes of Jun Fan Gung Fu and 30 minutes of Kali. The classes have about 10 to 20 people and are comprised of kickboxing drills, trapping, etc. However, I have never been taught specific details on the execution of any of the punches, kicks, footwork, etc., Its more like monkey see monkey do. Everyone pretty much always fights out of a left lead and there is little emphasis on the proper chinese terminology until about a year into your training. To compound the problem, when I ask the apprentice instructor during my privates about specific detail, he can never really give me the exact terminology or explanation, stating "yes, I think that's what Sifu means when he writes it like that for the requirements for evaluation. I don't really go off of the requirment sheets but what we do in class." Furthermore, Different people in the group class are kicking differently, chambering their kicks, and being extremely telegraphic, but none of this ever gets mentioned. Now here comes the tough decision. Just last week, while visiting a martial arts supply store in Miami, I saw a flyer for a guy in Miami is certified under Richard Bustillo, Ted Wong, and Larry Hartsell. I gave him a call just to explore all of my options. He teaches out of a backyard group and has a private lesson instructor's program which he thought I might be interested in. I set up two private lessons with him and can honestly tell you that now I am more confused then ever. He was very detailed explaining the finer points of footwork, an 8-Count boxing drill and non-telegraphic punching and kicking. It turns out that I had been, without even noticing it, telegraphing my punches and kicks due to the fact that I was stepping while punching instead of letting the punch go then stepping. When it came to performing a regular front kick from the Bai-Jong Stance, I was dropping the heel and then kicking with the front leg. This he said was very telegraphic, as the kick should launch as you drop your rear heel. In addition, he asked why I always drop into a left lead Bai-Jong, when Bruce favored the right. He was basically astonished when I told him that we rarely train out of the right lead. He asked me to execute some basic strikes in their chinese name, and I only had a vague idea of what they were, based on personal readings but not on my training at the Inosanto affiliated school. This also astonished him, seeing that a student who has trained for about 1 year at the Inosanto school was not very adept in the terminology. I am really considering going with this instructor which is under the IMB Academy. However, I have put in a year of work at the Inosanto affiliated school and always wonder if it's just me or if it will get more detailed as I go up in rank. Has anybody experienced this? Is there truly a difference or is it just that I have not really gotten to a more advance level yet? I am very frustrated because when I took my private class with the IMB instructor, everything that I did was, in a very nice way, scrutinized for its lack of detail, economy of motion, etc. I can honestly say that at the Inosanto affiliated school, I have never been taught the JKD way of throwing punches or kicks. I basically do them based on my many years of training in Ed Parker's Kenpo and basically get commended on them. Anyone's advise or help would be greatly appreciated.

[MikeJKD]

JKD Approach

Ken,
I understand your confusion, and your dillemma. I have had a lot of instructors over the years and it took me a very long time to find a group of instructors that I felt good about training with. It just happens that this group included people like Harley Elmore, Brad Garrison, Paul Vunak, and Dan Inosanto. A lot of what I ran into early on was simple kickboxing without much emphasis on anything but making the motions feel natural to me. Dan has always said that JKD is not about techniques...it is about experiences. Later on, I delved far deeper into specifics. To this day, I would say that the best JKD schools out there are full of students who each bring a little of their own flavor to the table. Each student should be encouraged to find his or her own way of doing things, and while the instructor should offer guidance as far as the technical aspects are concerned, it's always been my opinion that the best instructors in JKD are the ones who play to your strengths. Granted, if you don't feel good about the instruction you're getting, maybe you ought to bring it up to your current instructor and fill him in on the problems. Chances are, he'll do something to help you get more out of your training. And if not, hey, go find someplace you can feel good about. Whatever happens, though, avoid the "Original versus Concepts versus Nucleus" bullshit that goes on all the time. With JKD, the goal is to be functional, and to keep growing. Bottom Line: Be your own laboratory, try as much as you can, and seek out the people who encourage and provide outlets for that type of training and you can't go wrong. Hope that helps some.
Mike Brewer

[HungryWolf21]

If you are unhappy with all of this JKD differential, I would suggest that you go out on your own for a while. Go to a boxing gym for a few months to really sharpen your boxing skills. Go to a kickboxing gym to work your punches with your kicks. Go to a strictly BJJ school for a year or so. I think you catch my drift. Whenever I took time to concentrate on one area for a while, I improved so much faster.

[thekuntawman]

kenjeet,

how often do you spar in your training? you know terminology is not that important, and "finer points" is not that important, especially after one year, that you are still a beginner, you should be still developing your basics instead of spending a lot of time with advanced/sophisticated ideas.

brother dont let other teachers brainwash you with the clever words you dont understand or ideas you didnt hear about yet. as a beginner every martial arts teacher will have things to make you fell inferior to their way of doing things, but the opposite is true. its your application that is important, all that stuff is second. every teacher you meet will be able to show you things, it doesnt mean your teacher doesnt know it, and it doesnt even mean he didnt show it to you yet,either! maybe he doesnt think its important to teach it. maybe he prefers to use english word or tagalog. you know you cant always look into the other yard for fresher grass, your will never get a house built that way. do you know in many schools you only get to train with the apprenctices? this is how new teachers are taught! but the question is, can you use what you are learning? let me give you some advice, one experience teacher to a learnng student, **all technqiues are telegraphic** you hear me? what makes the technique telegraphic is how fast can you hit him before he can do anything about it!

dont get occupied with movement, your priority is training, getting stronger, and faster, and developing your relationship to your teacher. a disloyal pet will end up starving to death (i am not calling you a dog), what i mean is focus to your training, not who is giving out the most impressive information. i am actually shocked the guy you went to visit was so disrespectful he let you leave feeling like your training was not good enough. that is a no-no, your teacher should give him a call.

dont worry about what you are learning, even though i never saw it, it cant be bad training, unless someone is telling you that you are close to teacher's level after only one year! you have many years to get that "scientific" stuff, but that's like teaching algabra to a 10 year old kid, you can do it, but he wont really see it until he's older, so you are wasting time. focus one developing good strong basics, and the next time somebody tells you that you something is wrong with your technique, ask them "show me what you mean." if you have a guy punch a target or the air i can show you a million things wrong or what i can do to beat it. but never be convince until he does beat you and your punch. brother your technique is fine, just train to make it better.

[sikal]

Whew ... that's a rough spot.

Here's my take, though.

For brevity, I'll call the Inosanto instructor "Iguy" and the Bustillo instructor "Bguy."

The martial arts are, IMHO, a very personal endeavor. Your instructor is a guide and mentor along the way. Iguy may be a very good martial artist ... but not all that good at communicating his knowledge. Bguy may be just the opposite ... or maybe he's just a better martial artist and teacher ... or maybe he just has a keener eye.

One thing to remember, though, is not to say that one guy is better than the other ... because this may not really be the case (with only a year in, that'd be hard for you to accurately judge). What you can determine, though, is which is best *for you.* Maybe Bguy is best for you. This doesn't necessarily mean he's best for your neighbor, though.

Also, having attended several seminars with Guro Dan and Sifu Richard, it seems to me that there is a distinct difference in their training mindsets. Guro Dan favors the fire hose approach (i.e.: he blasts you with information and you get what you can). Sifu Richard favors the seven course meal method (i.e.: there's still a lot of information, but each platter is brought out individually and you can eat your fill casually and stop). Each method has its strengths and weaknesses ... and each method favors a different type of student.

I personally prefer the fire hose method. For me, the 7 course meal is good and filling ... but I have a short attention span so each course gets boring to me before it's finished. Neither good nor bad ... just the way I'm wired.

From the sounds of it, Bguy's method suits you better. A year, in the big scheme of things, isn't all that long. If you're serious about your training then it'll be a lifelong endeavor ... what's a year when compared to the rest of your life? Also, the year wasn't wasted. You did learn some things that will be useful. And, from the sounds of it, you enjoyed your training with Iguy ... you just don't think it's right for you (that's the impression I get from your post, anyway).

You gotta do what's right for you, though. My suggestion (based on the impression I got from your post) would be to go to the Bustillo guy ... but leave your current instructor tactfully and respectfully. From the sounds of it, he didn't mislead you or anything ... his way just isn't your way. If this is the case, then you should do your best to part on good terms with him.

Of course, there's also nothing that says you can't train with both (if your schedule permits it and neither of them has issues with it).

Just my opinion ... FWIW.

Regards, Mike

[MikeJKD]

another suggestion

Sorry I didn't make this point earlier. You may want to train with both folks. Chances are they both have a lot to offer. Above all though, remember that you need to put yourself under realistic pressure and spar as much as you can without neglecting the drills. Like Harley has said for years, drills build skills. Sparring is just as essential, though, for learning what works best for you under pressure.
Mike

[Groin Grab]

I'm training with a guy right now that has got to be the most knit picky perfectionist I've ever been around in my life. At first I completely enjoyed the detailed critique and analyasazation of everything but now he is so picky I can hardly stand it. -- sorry my spell checker wasn't working.

[KenJeet]

Thank you all for your responses. It is much appreciated. KuntawMan, to answer your question, I have not sparred at the Inosanto affiliated school yet. The school starts to implement the sparring at the phase two level and above. With regards to your comment regarding not worrying about the finer details at this point and concentrate on my basics, what if supposedly, according to the Bustillo affiliated instructor, your basics are not following the correct JKD mechanics? For example, one of the drills that the Bustillo affiliated instructor made me do was the following: He would make me move around and then suddenly put up the focus mitts and do a basic jab, cross combination. I had obviously done this combination before at the Inosanto affiliated school and even with Kickboxing great Joe Lewis. One, when I would jab I would step in with the jab to put more weight into it. However, He would constantly move the mitt back so that my jab would miss it. Lets just say that my arms are killing me three days later from constantly missing the target. He would tell me that the reason he was able to move it away was because when I would punch I was simultaneously stepping in with the punch as opposed to starting the punch then stepping. You could see why this was so frustrating for me. Whenever I would do it more along the lines of letting the punch go then stepping, I would miraculously hit the target. I don't know, now that I think back, maybe if he was not so interested in making his point, I might have missed the target doing it his way anyways. I guess anybody can make someone miss by simply moving the mitt as soon as you sense any movement. Don't get me wrong, he was very nice and at times told me that I was doing a good job. However, overall I left very dissapointed in myself. He also made it a point to criticize my kicks as being telegraphic. I do not mean to sound arrogant, but that is probably my strongest skill and what I was most known for having competed week in and week out for three years in the NASKA and FBBA point karate circuit. Most of my wins came by quick non-telegraphic roundhouse kicks to the head and hook kicks to the opponents blind spot. He kept moving the mitt away everytime I would kick. This was very discouraging and painful. I honestly sometimes felt like telling him "yea, its real easy to move the mitts out of the way once you detect movement, but try to get your head out of the way when I slip an extremely fast round kick to your head." I know that sounds bad, but that's how I sometimes felt. I must be honest, I love being a part of the Inosanto lineage and I am hesitant to abandon it. I have been in Ed Parker's American Kenpo for 8 years and currently train with one of Mr. Parker's top 1st generation instructors. He is very picky, cross-trains in various arts, is very detailed with his teachings and only encourages me to stick to the Inosanto lineage, knowing first hand of its instructors' abilities. Maybe I have gotten a bit spoiled in that sense of getting very technical details. But I'm thinking that maybe in Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do under the Inosanto lineage it may just take a bit more time before you start the self perfection stage of truly refining what you know, learning the terminology, strategy, etc.. Do you guys feel, that I can not adequately make an informed decision until I have been more time in JKD?

[thekuntawman]

hello kenjeet
the focus mitt thing is a trick the old eskrimador can use to make young men think the old man still can move around. excpet it was called "hit my stick" or "hit my arm" its not the same as "hit my head".

as far as being telagraphic, i can understand, because i teach my students to move like a cobra also (with no preparation moves first), but what's more important to me is that he can fire when he is ready, he does it with speed, and when it hits its like a snake bite. we dont get speed and power by paying a lot of attention to form, which is what the other guy looks like he is doing. my grandpa use to tease me about one of the karate teachers i would talk to at the tournament (i do point competition since i was 11), but he would take his magnifying glass when i was practicing and look at me, because this karate guy (who i love like an uncle) use to talk to me that my old man needs to keep up with the times: i should round kick with the instep (gives me reach), spread out my guard (protects more of my scoring areas), etc. he would pick every little thing to make it look like "how come your granpa didnt catch that?" when i was taking kung fu, one of my si hing did the same thing too.

but i understand that you are already a black belter, but for your jeet kune do you are a beginner. do the curriculum he made for you, in the same amount of time he requires, and you will be so much better in the end. all that detail makes sense at the drawing board, but like mike tyson said "the drawing board dont mean shit". of course, its what happens when you are away from the drawing board. the advance level is where you develop those small things. most likely by then you will fixed those things on your own just by doing what you have to do to hit your guy, or evade his attack or whatever. the important thing at least in kuntaw is that you hit the guy with power before he can stop the attack, not how you look trying to hit him.

small detail is fine to, but i would rather give a student one or two things each time until he erase the mistake. give him a lot of stuff he wont remember anything. and wont develop anything either which is more important than did he remember.

i think you are on a good path. keep fighting, that is the best advice. i tell my guys if you visit another club and you didnt spar with the people there you wasted your time, because its the only way you get better, not getting lectures about how to do things. the more fighters you have in front of you, the better a fighter your going to be. maybe the guy will have you back and show you how telegraphic you are. my boys are told that a lot, but the question is yes you saw it, but did you stop it?

[Stuart S. Igarta]

I would go with the one that you feel teaches you how best to fight. Who cares about names, ranks, etc., you can know all the names of techniques, hold a high belt rank, etc. but if you can't perform it real time then it doesn't mean jack. Look for the person who best teaches you how to perform real time, check out http://www.straightblastgym.com for a much better explanation of what I mean.

[Paul Sharp]

Kenjeet,
Like most have said, you have to go with the method of training that fits you. Your concepts instructor wouldn't be Dwight Woods would it?

I can tell you from personal experience if you put ten boxing coaches in a room and ask them the proper way to jab you will get varied answers. Some say step first, some say don't step and others will say jab first let your body follow. Bottom line, they all are right. I have been hit by athletes trained by coaches of each method and it doesn't matter, the jab still stings. Either that or I'm a pain intolerant wussy.

Sounds like this guy is trying to tear you down which isn't bad if his intent is to build YOU up..., I believe his intent is to build HIMSELF up. That is not the role of a coach. Just my un-solicited opinion.

When I was living in South Florida the Bustillo guy was in Pembroke Pines..., If you are willing to drive there for a different flavor then you might want to check out One Dragon Martial Arts. Luis is in the Pembroke area. For what its worth he will let you jab, or anything else, any way you want as long as you can make it land and make it hurt. You can get more info at www.onedragon.com

Don't perspire over the minutia. Just friggin' train baby, at the end of the day that is all that counts.

Hope this helps.

-Paul Sharp

https://www.straightblastgymillinois.com

[Chad W. Getz]

Damn good post, Paul Sharp. Damn good. I'll second that motion.

[Kevin]

Correction

Kuntawman said...

>>small detail is fine to, but i would rather give a student one or two things each time until he erase the mistake.<<

A friend of mine gave me some good advice... he told me that he limits corrections to two.... maybe three times a night. I agree that with some basic coaching and alot of sparring you tend to become self-correcting.

~Kev

[KenJeet]

PaulSharp,

Yes, my Inosanto affiliated JKD Concepts instructor in Miami is Sifu Dwight Woods. Have you trained with him?

[Paul Sharp]

Kenjeet,
I trained with Dwight and later with one of his phase 1 instructors, Ric Perdomo, pre and post Andrew.

Then I attended a Vunak seminar at the academy and that was that. I started training with the PFS guys the next week.

-Paul Sharp

https://www.straightblastgymillinois.com