To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

[dimmak786]

Lucidimist. Read your own bloody earlier posts.

You said Bruce could beat Ali. Now your backtracking.

Than you said that Joe Weider said Bruce had the most well developed physique he had ever seen. Now your backtracking

Sort our what it is your trying to say please.

[lucidmist]

Perhaps he's trying to say that Bruce Lee was a human being and nothing more? Maybe he's trying to say that, while Bruce's physique was impressive, it wasn't anything on the order of a professional bodybuilder's in terms of the things bodybuilders look for. Maybe he's trying to say that there's no way to know who Bruce Lee would have beaten in a real fight? I don't know, but it sounds like there's a few people here who have lifetime tickets aboard the nuthugger express, and they just aren't going to settle for anyone saying anything that makes Bruce Lee sound human.

Read properly! I believe the fight could go either way. Bruce did have skills, and could fight. I don't believe he was unbeatable. I never once said that. But I don't believe Ali was unbeatable either. In all honesty, I really believe the fight could go either way. I've seen fights between guys of different builts and skills who could beat someone, yet lost to someone else that couldn't beat the person they beat previously. But I NEVER once said Bruce was invincible. Read CLEARLY! There's nothing wrong with believing he could fight. We all have our own opinions on things. Just cos some of us believe he could fight, we're labeled nuts and called names. And just believing he could fight does NOT mean believing he's invincible.

Look, my opinions are based on my personal experiences. I've seen small guys take down guys bigger than them, I've seen small guys crushed, big guys crushed. I used to believe size was everything, but after watching so many aggressive smaller guys take down larger guys, my opinion has changed. It's not always a one-way traffic.

And for Bruce's frame and built, he did develop his body really well. We see plenty of well-toned people, with nice chests, but none with developed forearms. I see many martial artists with good forearms, but under-developed chests. And so on. He was truly developed all round. But listen, I have never once said he was THE BEST. When the heck did I say that? I quoted those stuff I found cos that was all I could find. How else could I set a debate up? If someone who truly knew him could step up and say he couldn't fight for nuts, then good, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Because like I said before, everywhere I looked, negative stuff only came from people who DIDN'T know him.

Well, yeah, I forgot. You guys are THE pros, much better than all the other experts and masters who said he could fight, and who acknowledged that his physique was well-developed. Yep yep, you guys are better than anyone, and know more than anyone. Of course, since all the other masters who DID know him said he could fight, for 40 years, that means they must've been on the nut express too. Yeah, you guys here know best.

[Tant01]

Check your facts???

"Kimura, who was studying judo, heard about Lee and decided to see what the fuss was about. By the time they met, Lee already had five or six informal students, most of them street toughs he met at Edison Technical School on Capitol Hill. They would practice in parks, parking garages, open gyms, anywhere they could find space. Lee didn't charge; they were his friends and he was learning from them how to adapt his style against Western-style fighters. Lee was only 5-foot-7 and 130 pounds, but hit like a heavyweight.

.

DUDE!

Kimura was a Judo CHAMPION and retired before BL ever had a student...

BL was nothing but a "PINKO" HOLLYWOOD "Kung-FU" master...

Any judoka worth his salt could easily take that ACTOR to the deck and choke him unconscious!

He may have been formidable and a genius but he was flesh and blood, just like the rest of us.

[J-Luck]

"Kimura, who was studying judo, heard about Lee and decided to see what the fuss was about. By the time they met, Lee already had five or six informal students, most of them street toughs he met at Edison Technical School on Capitol Hill. They would practice in parks, parking garages, open gyms, anywhere they could find space. Lee didn't charge; they were his friends and he was learning from them how to adapt his style against Western-style fighters. Lee was only 5-foot-7 and 130 pounds, but hit like a heavyweight.

The first time the two squared off, Lee threw a series of rapid-fire punches, stopping each inches from Kimura's face. Kimura was both intimidated and fascinated. He joined the group, but made it a point never to hang around after the workouts. Lee was too frenetic, too much the teenager for him."

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ray.d8/article10.html

Bruce had worked with people bigger than him, and supposedly stronger than him. Not saying he could best Ali for sure, but he definitely stood a chance.

Also, if Bruce was a fake, he wouldn't have been confident enough to do demonstrations where people would just walk up and test him. That was how he met James Demile anyway, a heavyweight boxing champion in the airforce who became his student after he couldn't beat Bruce during one demonstration.

"James Demile a former student of Bruce and a former heavyweight boxing champ of the US Airforce has commented that, "I wouldn't have put a dime on anyone to beat Bruce Lee in a real confrontation. Bruce Lee was the best fighter I ever saw, even to this very day, and not just pound for pound - but against anyone in a real fight."

"Temple of the Unknown: I read that Bruce was going to fight Ali and that the fight was set up...is this true and did Bruce ever say that if there was one fighter he wasnt sure he would beat was Ali?

Thank you,

James DeMile: Aloha, That was pure Hollywood. Ali would have killed him in the ring. Bruce would have killed him in the street."

(http://www.cityonfire.com/unknown/in...mile/index.htm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

Are you saying the heavyweights boxers in the airforce can't fight, when Bruce could beat one of the champions?? Or are you saying James Demile can't fight?

He held open demonstrations man, if so many of you like to put him down like you're better than him, then maybe some of you can go hold a demonstration.

Physique:

Lee's devotion to fitness gave him a body that was admired by many of the top names in bodybuilding community. Joe Weider, the founder of Mr. Olympia, described Bruce's physique as "the most defined body I've ever seen!" Many top body building competitors have indicated Bruce as a major influence on their bodybuilding careers including Flex Wheeler, Shawn Ray, Rachel McLish, Lou Ferrigno, Lee Haney, Lenda Murray and 6 time Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates. Arnold Schwarznegger was also influenced by Bruce, and said of his body,

"Bruce Lee had a very--I mean a very defined physique. He had very little body fat. I mean, he probably had one of the lowest body fat counts of any athlete. And I think that's why he looked so believable."
A doctor who knew Lee once claimed that he was "Muscled as a squirrel, and spirited as a horse" and fitter than anyone he had ever seen.

Lee was known to have collected over 140 books in his lifetime on bodybuilding, weight training, physiology and kinesiology. In order to better train specific muscle groups, he also created several original designs of his own training equipment and had his friend George Lee build them to his specifications.


Physical feats:

Lee's phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats. The following list are the physical feats that are documented and supported by reliable sources.

Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.

Lee could spring a 235lb opponent 15 feet away with a 1 inch punch.

Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24fps, so many scenes were shot in 32fps to put Lee in slow motion. Normally martial arts films are sped up.

In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.

Lee could perform push ups using only his thumbs

Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.

Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.

Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger

Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.

From a standing position, Lee could hold a 125lb barbell straight out.

Lee could break wooden boards six inches thick.

Lee performed a side kick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150-pound punching bag

Lee could cause a 300-lb bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick.

In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.

Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola, at a time before cans were made of the softer aluminum metal.

Lee would use one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood.

I hope no one took you seriously(didn't take time to read the rest of the thread). Kimura would have KILLED Lee. Think about it, Gene Lebell handed Lee his ass... twice, via choke. Would Kimura would have done, I don't even wanna think about it.

Stop being dumb.

[lucidmist]

I hope no one took you seriously(didn't take time to read the rest of the thread). Kimura would have KILLED Lee. Think about it, Gene Lebell handed Lee his ass... twice, via choke. Would Kimura would have done, I don't even wanna think about it.

Stop being dumb.

The one who's dumb, is you.

Those were quotes I found, not my own thoughts/opinions. A discussion forum is about, DISCUSSION. I found what I could find, and used it for a discussion. Nothing wrong with that. IF I COULD FIND NEGATIVE QUOTES FROM PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM, I WOULD'VE USED THOSE TOO.

Did anyone find a line that I said "Bruce was unbeatable" or "Bruce was invincible"?? I never once said those. But there's nothing wrong with believing he could fight, or that any fight could go either way between two skilled people.

You guys gotta stop being insecure. No one's here to rock your cradle of self-declared upper stature or invincibility, and yes, even Bruce couldn't have beaten any of you. Yes yes, I get it.

I SAY AGAIN, IF I COULD FIND NEGATIVE QUOTES FROM PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM, I WOULD USE THOSE TOO. But I COULDN'T. And I mean from people who actually knew him. So far, I could only find Joe Lewis' statement of Bruce Lee being only a great teacher, but not a fighter. If there's more, I'm really open to read.

However, it's certainly not enough to dismiss the older masters who said Bruce could fight based on your own one-sided conjecture that it's cos of profitability. Not EVERYONE who knew him profited from his name. So somewhere, somehow, there'd be someone who would've spouted the truth by now. But so far I haven't come across anything, except negativity from people who DIDN'T know him.

[lucidmist]

Um, lucidmist? I was actually talking to dim mak. I was defending what you wrote, man. I wasn't arguing your points. Actually, I was saying exactly the same things you were. Take your ritalin.

I believe Bruce Lee was a good fighter, too. I also believe there were plenty of people in the world who would have beaten him senseless. if you would take your own advice and READ CLEARLY, you'd see that I was sticking up for your opinions in the face of a blind, nuthugging, hero-worshipping bruceophile like dimmak.

Jeez, bro. You need a paper bag to breathe into? I've never seen anyone get so worked up over someone agreeing with them before!

Sorry man, my bad. Glad to know there's someone else who believes Bruce Lee was a good fighter, but not blind to his human side. My apologies.

[J-Luck]

The one who's dumb, is you.

Those were quotes I found, not my own thoughts/opinions. A discussion forum is about, DISCUSSION. I found what I could find, and used it for a discussion. Nothing wrong with that. IF I COULD FIND NEGATIVE QUOTES FROM PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM, I WOULD'VE USED THOSE TOO.

Did anyone find a line that I said "Bruce was unbeatable" or "Bruce was invincible"?? I never once said those. But there's nothing wrong with believing he could fight, or that any fight could go either way between two skilled people.

You guys gotta stop being insecure. No one's here to rock your cradle of self-declared upper stature or invincibility, and yes, even Bruce couldn't have beaten any of you. Yes yes, I get it.

I SAY AGAIN, IF I COULD FIND NEGATIVE QUOTES FROM PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM, I WOULD USE THOSE TOO. But I COULDN'T. And I mean from people who actually knew him. So far, I could only find Joe Lewis' statement of Bruce Lee being only a great teacher, but not a fighter. If there's more, I'm really open to read.

However, it's certainly not enough to dismiss the older masters who said Bruce could fight based on your own one-sided conjecture that it's cos of profitability. Not EVERYONE who knew him profited from his name. So somewhere, somehow, there'd be someone who would've spouted the truth by now. But so far I haven't come across anything, except negativity from people who DIDN'T know him.

Look, stop being so sensitive about this. Instead of bitchin at me, you could have just retracted your statement about Kimura(which was stupid, and someone above me with the Bird icon pointed out).

Gene Lebell choked his ass out twice with ease. Refute this.

No one knows if Lee was a good fighter. The only fight that there were multiple witnesses to was the Lebell fight. Bruce started training with him because of this. Lebell did not start training with Bruce. Figure that one out .

Lee was an actor, a well conditioned martial artist(Though most experts feel he heavily over trained, and because of this, did not live up to his physical potential), and a good teacher with some good concepts, that spawned the idea of cross training.

Don't make him fit into your box.

[lucidmist]

Look, stop being so sensitive about this. Instead of bitchin at me, you could have just retracted your statement about Kimura(which was stupid, and someone above me with the Bird icon pointed out).

Gene Lebell choked his ass out twice with ease. Refute this.

No one knows if Lee was a good fighter. The only fight that there were multiple witnesses to was the Lebell fight. Bruce started training with him because of this. Lebell did not start training with Bruce. Figure that one out .

Lee was an actor, a well conditioned martial artist(Though most experts feel he heavily over trained, and because of this, did not live up to his physical potential), and a good teacher with some good concepts, that spawned the idea of cross training.

Don't make him fit into your box.

Yo man. You're weird. You started this "bitchin" thing.

Listen, that Kimura statement wasn't made by me. I quoted what I could find to use in a discussion. I used "" (QUOTES). Did you not see those?? Ask Kimura to retract it then, cos what I quoted was from an interview I found of his.

I never made Bruce to be a "Godlike" fighter. But I still advocate that there is nothing wrong with me believing he could fight. Well, imagine if he did only win one boxing match in his younger days, he DID win one. Many martial artists train their whole lives without making thru even a semi-finals. And even if the guy he beat was crummy, it still proved enough to me that he could fight. And that guy he beat was the ex boxing champ. Unless you're saying boxers suck. Fine. I know plenty who don't win championships but can kick ass real good on the street. Go figure.

I got this off Lebell's site:

"I remember one time he kicked me really hard. I remember thinking it was a good thing he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me to China! He was strong for his size, lemme tell ya."

He did have power. Even if he lost to Lebell, that doesn't make him a crummy fighter. So you lose to someone, does that make you a bad martial artist or fighter? He's (was) human man, not Superman. He's entitled to lose fights.

Also, there were multiple eye witnesses to his street fights. Unless you're calling the old masters liars, or the people interviewed for his biographies liars. I never once said those were classic awesome fights that showed he was SUPERMAN. But I SAID I believe he COULD fight. Half the martial artists I know don't even last a second in any amateur boxing match or street fight!

Also, for his physical feats, I found those off wikipedia. If someone who knew the truth (who KNEW him) could prove otherwise, then pray share. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with believing someone could perform outstanding feats physically. But that DOES NOT mean I'm saying he's a God. There're plenty of people around who can perform amazing stuff with their bodies! But that does not make them super-fighters! In the army, we used to challenge each other to one-finger pullups, but that does not make soldiers supermen!

As for Ali, I believe ANYONE can be beaten. Bruce had the speed and power, and the skills. I still firmly believe the fight can go both ways on the street. But I did say, I know one thing's for sure. If Ali landed a first good blow, Bruce would be dead, or in serious trouble.

Read this clearly. I NEVER said Bruce was unbeatable or a Superman. But:

1. I believe he could fight. (as with many people)

2. I believe he could perform outstanding feats. (as with many people are able to)

3. I believe he stood a chance against Ali on the street.

You have your opinions, I have mine. I didn't start out insulting you, so you don't have to. We can cool this off now.

As for the guy with the birdie icon, he doesn't seem to be the most informed person, plus he's just another one of those guys that generalize that actors aren't fighters. I tell you something. I was in the army, and NOT all soldiers are fighters. Your career does not make you what you are or what you aren't!

And if you ain't bitchin', I won't bitch. In fact, you guys are the ones making him out to be a Superman when I am in fact, humanizing him! What, he's not entitled to lose fights to anyone? Losing a fight or two automatically makes him a crummy fighter and a fake? He's supposed to be a superhero and win everything?? If you guys lost a fight or two, does that make you shitty or a fake??

I just don't see any reason why anyone should call him names or a fake. Some of us train under masters who've never fought. But we still give them our due respect. We don't go calling them fakes or other names that belittle them.

[J-Luck]

Yo man. You're weird. You started this "bitchin" thing.

Listen, that Kimura statement wasn't made by me. I quoted what I could find to use in a discussion. I used "" (QUOTES). Did you not see those?? Ask Kimura to retract it then, cos what I quoted was from an interview I found of his.

I never made Bruce to be a "Godlike" fighter. But I still advocate that there is nothing wrong with me believing he could fight. Well, imagine if he did only win one boxing match in his younger days, he DID win one. Many martial artists train their whole lives without making thru even a semi-finals. And even if the guy he beat was crummy, it still proved enough to me that he could fight. And that guy he beat was the ex boxing champ. Unless you're saying boxers suck. Fine. I know plenty who don't win championships but can kick ass real good on the street. Go figure.

I got this off Lebell's site:

"I remember one time he kicked me really hard. I remember thinking it was a good thing he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me to China! He was strong for his size, lemme tell ya."

He did have power. Even if he lost to Lebell, that doesn't make him a crummy fighter. So you lose to someone, does that make you a bad martial artist or fighter? He's (was) human man, not Superman. He's entitled to lose fights.

Also, there were multiple eye witnesses to his street fights. Unless you're calling the old masters liars, or the people interviewed for his biographies liars. I never once said those were classic awesome fights that showed he was SUPERMAN. But I SAID I believe he COULD fight. Half the martial artists I know don't even last a second in any amateur boxing match or street fight!

Also, for his physical feats, I found those off wikipedia. If someone who knew the truth (who KNEW him) could prove otherwise, then pray share. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with believing someone could perform outstanding feats physically. But that DOES NOT mean I'm saying he's a God. There're plenty of people around who can perform amazing stuff with their bodies! But that does not make them super-fighters! In the army, we used to challenge each other to one-finger pullups, but that does not make soldiers supermen!

As for Ali, I believe ANYONE can be beaten. Bruce had the speed and power, and the skills. I still firmly believe the fight can go both ways on the street. But I did say, I know one thing's for sure. If Ali landed a first good blow, Bruce would be dead, or in serious trouble.

Read this clearly. I NEVER said Bruce was unbeatable or a Superman. But:

1. I believe he could fight. (as with many people)

2. I believe he could perform outstanding feats. (as with many people are able to)

3. I believe he stood a chance against Ali on the street.

You have your opinions, I have mine. I didn't start out insulting you, so you don't have to. We can cool this off now.

As for the guy with the birdie icon, he doesn't seem to be the most informed person, plus he's just another one of those guys that generalize that actors aren't fighters. I tell you something. I was in the army, and NOT all soldiers are fighters. Your career does not make you what you are or what you aren't!

And if you ain't bitchin', I won't bitch. In fact, you guys are the ones making him out to be a Superman when I am in fact, humanizing him! What, he's not entitled to lose fights to anyone? Losing a fight or two automatically makes him a crummy fighter and a fake? He's supposed to be a superhero and win everything?? If you guys lost a fight or two, does that make you shitty or a fake??

I just don't see any reason why anyone should call him names or a fake. Some of us train under masters who've never fought. But we still give them our due respect. We don't go calling them fakes or other names that belittle them.

1. According to your logic... over 50% of the population of the United States can fight. Congrats.

2. No no, outstanding means:

"1. prominent; conspicuous; striking: an outstanding example of courage.
2. marked by superiority or distinction; excellent; distinguished: an outstanding student."

Again, your logic is off. Many people cannot perform outstanding feats, it would detract from the function of being outstanding.

Lee trained hard, and his feats were somewhat impressive. However, they were not outstanding, incredibly, or even fully impressive. He trained hard, and training pays off. Combine this with decent athletics/genetics, and you get Lee. There are many more people who train much less and can perform all the feats Lee could, and more.

3. At any time in any given place, someone stands AT LEAST a 2% chance of ending up being able to walk away from a conflict the victor. I'd give Lee a huge boost here, and say his abilities surpass chance, and give him a 5-7% chance of being able to beat Ali, in a street fight. It appears that we agree, via the wording of your statement.

However, if you think he stood a 50/50 chance or a 40/60 chance... you'd be outa your mind. A 220 pound man well over 6 feet tall, with incredibly fast, accurate, powerful, and most of all, PROVEN hands. That's a bad combo for Lee, coming in at under 5'9, and never moving beyond 150 pounds. VERY VERY BAD. I think Ali could knock him out with a kick lol. It's that bad.

[jubaji]

Wow, that last post by lucymissed was just embarassing as hell!

[lucidmist]

hmm. it's Christmas, this just ain't worth the aggravation. i don't expect anything to get through to you guys, and i won't buy whatever putdowns you make of someone who's had positive acknowledgement from many people who knew him, watched him fight, but only had negative comments from people who've never met or known him. he's human man! him being an actor, getting a choke hold from lebell, even losing to ali, whatever, does not make him a fake. i never said he was THE BEST, but he was no fake. yep yep, none of the people who knew him knew whatever they were talking about. you guys know best. obviously they were liars, and you're all about truth, justice and the american way.

also, a fight in a ring is no easy job. i totally agree. it takes alot of willpower and courage. but the psychology of fighting on the street is very different. you have no idea of the probabilities, you don't know what else could happen beyond the fists and feet, and you don't know who else is gonna creep up on you next, besides the guy standing in front of you. you can insult me all you want, but if you ask me, i'd say it's easier to feel more confident fighting in the ring than on the street, even against an untrained thug, cos you never know what else is coming. no rules, no restraint on objects. look, don't get me wrong. i have alot of respect for competition fighters. many i know can kick butt inside and outside the ring. and there're also many street brawlers turned competition fighters who kick butt on the street but lose in the ring, and vice versa. but i've seen so many purely competitive fighters freeze up just when we were about to get rough with parking valets, bouncers, some guys from the bar, etc. not all, of course, but enough to convince me that being toughest in the ring doesn't mean being toughest on the street. it all boils down to the mind, not just the skills. and having killer willpower in the ring does not mean a killer willpower on the street. having superb courage in the ring does not constitute to having superb courage on the street.

that said, look, i'm sure we've fought with boxers (not in the ring) bigger than us, but we found that we could beat them. and my ground skills are shit but once on the ground, i realized the only thing a few of the boxers could do when you've grabbed their necks in a choke is that they'll try to pry your arms away, or try to hit your face over and over again even when the angle's way off, and they tend to forget to use their elbows or anything else. of course, AGAIN, i'm NOT saying all boxers fight like that. many can kill outside the ring.

and one more thing. even if it's not the best example, akebono (600 lbs?) vs royce gracie (180 lbs?), royce won. true, akebono was purely a champion sumo wrestler, but it still means that outside of one's own style, it doesn't mean size will gain you a definite advantage.

just curious. has ali ever been in a street fight or MMA fight before?

anyway, merry christmas. hope you had a good one.

[lucidmist]

Wow, that last post by lucymissed was just embarassing as hell!

whatever, dude. happy new year.

[Vader]

Lee was an actor, a well conditioned martial artist(Though most experts feel he heavily over trained, and because of this, did not live up to his physical potential), and a good teacher with some good concepts, that spawned the idea of cross training.

Don't make him fit into your box.

***

Bruce practiced and taught martial arts for years before we ever saw him using it in acting in the U.S and in his movies.

Back in the 60's and 70's when everyone was advocating points-sparring fighting in competition, Bruce was advocating Full Contact sparring. Bruce didn't believe in the semi-contact points fighting competitions, so he never entered competitions.

So if you don't enter competitions, it's a bit hard to get a so called 'fight' record. Not to mention these were 'sports fighting' competitions and not real fights. Real fights don't have referees and rules.


But Bruce did have real fights ie - challenges which he accepted. And he was never defeated in these challenge matches, which were not 'sporting semi-contact competition fights' but real fights.


Vader.

[J-Luck]

***

Bruce practiced and taught martial arts for years before we ever saw him using it in acting in the U.S and in his movies.

Back in the 60's and 70's when everyone was advocating points-sparring fighting in competition, Bruce was advocating Full Contact sparring. Bruce didn't believe in the semi-contact points fighting competitions, so he never entered competitions.

So if you don't enter competitions, it's a bit hard to get a so called 'fight' record. Not to mention these were 'sports fighting' competitions and not real fights. Real fights don't have referees and rules.


But Bruce did have real fights ie - challenges which he accepted. And he was never defeated in these challenge matches, which were not 'sporting semi-contact competition fights' but real fights.


Vader.

You are wrong, he was defeated multiple times, and won a couple of times.

Gene Lebell was the most obvious person to beat him, but that was only because he easily crushed him.

Norris, because he's a nice, humble guy, claims Lee wupped him ass, but people around at the time say that Norris didn't have much trouble with Lee, and was holding back.

Check yoself fo' you speak son.

[J-Luck]

hmm. it's Christmas, this just ain't worth the aggravation. i don't expect anything to get through to you guys, and i won't buy whatever putdowns you make of someone who's had positive acknowledgement from many people who knew him, watched him fight, but only had negative comments from people who've never met or known him. he's human man! him being an actor, getting a choke hold from lebell, even losing to ali, whatever, does not make him a fake. i never said he was THE BEST, but he was no fake. yep yep, none of the people who knew him knew whatever they were talking about. you guys know best. obviously they were liars, and you're all about truth, justice and the american way.

also, a fight in a ring is no easy job. i totally agree. it takes alot of willpower and courage. but the psychology of fighting on the street is very different. you have no idea of the probabilities, you don't know what else could happen beyond the fists and feet, and you don't know who else is gonna creep up on you next, besides the guy standing in front of you. you can insult me all you want, but if you ask me, i'd say it's easier to feel more confident fighting in the ring than on the street, even against an untrained thug, cos you never know what else is coming. no rules, no restraint on objects. look, don't get me wrong. i have alot of respect for competition fighters. many i know can kick butt inside and outside the ring. and there're also many street brawlers turned competition fighters who kick butt on the street but lose in the ring, and vice versa. but i've seen so many purely competitive fighters freeze up just when we were about to get rough with parking valets, bouncers, some guys from the bar, etc. not all, of course, but enough to convince me that being toughest in the ring doesn't mean being toughest on the street. it all boils down to the mind, not just the skills. and having killer willpower in the ring does not mean a killer willpower on the street. having superb courage in the ring does not constitute to having superb courage on the street.

that said, look, i'm sure we've fought with boxers (not in the ring) bigger than us, but we found that we could beat them. and my ground skills are shit but once on the ground, i realized the only thing a few of the boxers could do when you've grabbed their necks in a choke is that they'll try to pry your arms away, or try to hit your face over and over again even when the angle's way off, and they tend to forget to use their elbows or anything else. of course, AGAIN, i'm NOT saying all boxers fight like that. many can kill outside the ring.

and one more thing. even if it's not the best example, akebono (600 lbs?) vs royce gracie (180 lbs?), royce won. true, akebono was purely a champion sumo wrestler, but it still means that outside of one's own style, it doesn't mean size will gain you a definite advantage.

just curious. has ali ever been in a street fight or MMA fight before?

anyway, merry christmas. hope you had a good one.

Yes, Ali had been in multiple street fights. He grew up in a poor, bad neighborhood. Not innercity, but ghetto none the less.

Size will always gain you an advantage. ALWAYS. Akebono was grossly out of shape, and I don't think anyone would ever consider him a high caliber fighter, outside of his sport. Way to compare two unlike people(Ali, Akebono).

Lee only STARTED to learn any grappling after Lebell moped him. He wouldn't have been able to do much to Ali on the ground, Ali probably would be more likely to choke him due to size, strength, and athletic advantage.


You can't 100% predict what will happen in a street fight, but you can within reason. I am wayyy more comfortable in a street conflict than in MMA. I grew up ina bad area, chilled with the wrong people, and did the wrong things for a while. I can almost predict how a confrontation is going to go everytime. And I can usually dictate and control the situation with my behavior. Not so in MMA.

Anyways, Merry Christmas!