To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

[Ghost]

I really dont get how this discussion is working, how can you judge the fighting ability of someone you have never seen fight and has never fought anyone worth mentioning?

[Liberty]

If Lee Were Alive Today...

I really dont get how this discussion is working, how can you judge the fighting ability of someone you have never seen fight and has never fought anyone worth mentioning?

By the same token, how can you judge the fighting in-ability of that same man, whom you have not seen fight?

Why don't you just let them have their fun? What harm is that to you?

Lucid, Tom: There isn't a boxer then or now that could've survived Lee's speed, power, strategy - not a one! Be that in the street or the ring. Matter settled. Case closed. No matter what Casper, Spooky, the Ghostly Trio, or any other Ghost, for that matter, thinks.

Of course, UFC is something else altogether. Guys like Rampage, et al, would tear Lee to shreds.

Why? These guys live for pain. Look at how Frank Shamrock mocks someone who just smacked him into next week! Of course, someone like Crop Crop would barely get past the gate! After an ecounter with Lee his new name would be Cro Drop!

What am I basing this UFC stuff on? Those guys train every bit as hard, every bit as scientifically now, as Lee did for his time. Even if he did now. They are bigger, powerful, fast, predatory, fearless, can both dish out and take absolutely amazing amounts of pain, and they fight guys just like that all the time as well. Most of all, they live for war!

There is simply no way I can believe that if Lee were alive today, in his prime, fighting in that venue, he'd be unbeatable in his gorund game against every single one of those guys.

He'd make mince meat out of Hughes, Penn, smaller guys like that who he'd train like only he could for. But not some of the bigger ones.

That said, I do not believe he would compete in those venues. I mean, why take beatings when you can make better money with books, movies, and so forth? How much has Enter the Dragon made; what is it - almost a billion, or something? Why take bruisings for a living when he could just as well not only get his glory but put out his message the way he ended up doing? Look at the influence he's had around the world for going on 50 years, as a movie action hero. He is bigger then even Ali, who was huge, ever was.

Not to mention Lee trained for the street - hard. To turn around and train on curbing the instincts developed for that for the rules of sports like the UFC would be counter-productive, and basically, stupid.

Not to mention, a dumb marketing move. We're not talking boxing here. Where stratetgy, speed and power dominate, hence Lee would've wiped them all out. We're talking a sport where, when someone gets a hold of you, they can crush your face into pulp - not very smart for a movie star.

All who encountered him have said he was an awesome martial artist years ahead of his time. But unbeatable? Who is? whos' ever been?

If we went backwords and pitted him against Japan's legendary swordsman, Miyamoto Musahsi. How would Lee have faird against one of the greates swordsman the world has supposedly ever known? I mean this guy suposedly reached a point early on where he just never lost at slicing people in half.

Instead, if Lee were alive today and in his prime, he'd be doing what he was doing back then. That was what he did, that was what he wanted to do with his life.That was his passion. This is what he meant by declaring he was a martial artist. As Inosnato was for a time a martial artist who happened to be a school teacher. The world is full of people like that. Like Taky Kimura, a grocer, who but for Lee's fame would just be some quite little guy somewhere able to handle himself on the street.

On the other hand, if Lee were and old man today. He'd be a Clint Esatwood. Who went from bad movie acting to great movie directing. Lee had even said he'd hoped "to do with the chop-socky flicks what Eastwood has done with the spaghetti westerns." At what stage was he when he died? He'd completely overseen every aspect of "Way," and was doing the same with "Game." As with Esatwood's early movies directed by him - corny, etc. - I'm sure Lee, given his tremendous passion and talent for film, would've matured into a fine movie director, as have others.

There Casper, I mean Ghost; you happy now?

Now leave those two to their fantasy, and find one of your own.

Ah, I feel much better... Think I'll pat myself on the back...

[Ghost]

Liberty how old are you out of interest?

serious question

[Liberty]

17, why; cause I'm so smart?

[Ghost]

right thats about what i thought, thanks for answer honestly though.

Whats your experience in martial arts?

[Liberty]

What's that suposed to mean? How old are you?

[Ghost]

What's that suposed to mean? How old are you?

it means i thought you were young from the way you post and the way you talk about things.
Im 30.
was wondering what your experience in martial arts is, obviously its not going to be extensive at 17 but i just wondered what it is.

[Liberty]

it means i thought you were young from the way you post and the way you talk about things.
Im 30.
was wondering what your experience in martial arts is, obviously its not going to be extensive at 17 but i just wondered what it is.

What's extensive - Tae Kwon Do point sparring since the age of 8, like a friend of mine, or lots of street fighting and amatuer boxing since the same time, like my own experience (and an art called Pankration for 5 years now). Hope to add Wing Chun in the next few weeks (currently talking with diferrent teachers in that art -so far, none have wanted to spar so I can see what they are about). Somethin about their being "deadly."

Really, you obviously have a very limted view of the word "extensive." What is your martial background? I'm not talking about, 'well, ten years in such and such,' if the reality is it was never consistently battle tested. Honestly.

[Guest]

There isn't a boxer then or now that could've survived Lee's speed, power, strategy - not a one! Be that in the street or the ring. Matter settled. Case closed. ..

The problem with hypothetical discussions is you can make whatever outrageous claims you like and no one can prove or disprove them. Its all unfounded opinion, on both sides. As a JKD practicioner, an admirer of Mr Lee, and someone who trains in the world of Boxing, my unfounded opinion is that your claim is highly unlikely. I also believe that if Mr Lee were around today, he would tell you the same thing.

[Tom Yum]

What's extensive - Tae Kwon Do point sparring since the age of 8, like a friend of mine, or lots of street fighting and amatuer boxing since the same time, like my own experience (and an art called Pankration for 5 years now). Hope to add Wing Chun in the next few weeks (currently talking with diferrent teachers in that art -so far, none have wanted to spar so I can see what they are about). Somethin about their being "deadly."

Really, you obviously have a very limted view of the word "extensive." What is your martial background? I'm not talking about, 'well, ten years in such and such,' if the reality is it was never consistently battle tested. Honestly.

I'm suprised as a practitioner of pankration (for 5 years as you state) that you'd get so worked up about a theoretical Bruce Lee fight.

Some of the techniques that the wing chun guys use can't be used in the ring - as far as the art itself, its not a complete fighting system, even though its strong in its infighting range.

[Ghost]

The problem with hypothetical discussions is you can make whatever outrageous claims you like and no one can prove or disprove them. Its all unfounded opinion, on both sides. As a JKD practicioner, an admirer of Mr Lee, and someone who trains in the world of Boxing, my unfounded opinion is that your claim is highly unlikely. I also believe that if Mr Lee were around today, he would tell you the same thing.

Good points.
My view is that its a big gap between sparring and getting in the ring or having a real fight against someone that can fight.
Ive seen too many times people that look shit hot in the gym, are as fit as a fiddle and can spar with anyone, stick them in the ring and suddenly it all goes to rat shit and everyone from the gym is left wondering what happened.
Based on seeing this happen a few too many times i wont ever assume anyone can fight unless its proven regardless of their abilities outside of the ring.
This is why im not impressed with any of the demonstration videos and so on in relation to real fighting ability. Its too far a leap to make. We can make guesses and so on but thats all they are.
I dont make any excepetions for bruce lee because of his name as i wouldnt for mike tyson if i saw him train but hed never fought. id still say we dont know. I dont have some special criterial when it comes to bruce lees ability, its the same for everyone, unproven is unproven. If people say i think he would be good or i bet hed be good then fine. to state it as fact is not.
I should probably just ignore these threads.

[Guest]

If people say i think he would be good or i bet hed be good then fine. to state it as fact is not.
.

That is exactly my point. If people want to come on here and love up Bruce Lee all day long then great, I'd rather that than to come on and slag people off. Where I take issue, as I think you do, is when people come on here making some pretty sensationalist claims, and end their statements with words like "case closed". That will always turn me off their point of view.

[Liberty]

First off, I was being a smart aleck with all that "case closed" talk. And as one of you gentlemen said, the Lee thing is all hypothetical. I still believe that if those two want to pal around on the internet conjecturing, that's their perogative.

I mean, Ghost, you say you're 30. They're probably younger. Let them have their fun. Who are they hurting? Seems like you are ever waiting for one of them to come out and play so you can bully them.

You still did not answer my question about your own martial arts background. Then again, it does not matter.

One thing I will remain convinced about though - extensive experience is relative. Individual. I know a kid who used to be a friend of mine. He is now in gangs and carries a gun and has no problem using it. As I tell him, when we cross paths, his very street wisdom relative to other kids our age is "extensive."

As for what Wing Chun may or may not offer me, I want to find out for myself. You know, the "absorb what is useful" thing, and all that. surely, it can't hurt.

Anyway, my mom's about to come in my room and ring my neck,so I'll wish all of you a good night. Thanks for the input, and no offense, really.

[lucidmist]

Not much at this point. Too much speculation, crossing even the boundaries of style/art.

Thanks.. what about Tyson and Sugar Ray? Actually, I really think Tyson's brutal. Then again, almost all boxers are.

Ok, I'm an old man. I mean, not like 50s or 60s, but not young. Can I keep it a secret? Age is sensitive when you're slightly graying and generally without as much hair as the rest of the population. Not to mention slower in reflexes.

Basically, we're just having a fun discussion.. and I've spoken to people who learnt from students/colleagues of Bruce's, and they know for sure that he could fight. This is what I buy - that Bruce could fight. But I have never once said he was unbeatable, or invincible.

Actually, no one is. I believe every boxer, eg. Ali or Tyson, would fight all-out with no holds barred on the street. I don't think boxers who were psychologically trained to be brutal in bringing an opponent down in the ring would have any problem poking an eye out when necessary to stay alive. And I've punched boxers in the rib and stomach, felt like ROCK. And my impression is that the upper body defense is almost impenetrable. So many times I tried to do trick shots, but hardly succeeded. VERY fast defense. They are only limited by techniques, but extremely mobile, and it really makes knowing the extra techniques not that big an advantage. I mean, in my mind, I knew an array of ways to move, to kick and strike, but what's the use when the guy's defense just doesn't get broken into? Actually, I've always felt that the simplest way to fight wasn't JKD - it was boxing.

I only believe Bruce Lee had a chance with Ali because he had good timing, speed and power. Also, accurate. But like I said, everybody makes mistakes. If Ali makes one, he'll probably suffer a small price. But if Bruce makes one, he'd be a goner. Ali definitely can take tons more punishment than Bruce. But don't forget, all it takes is one strike to the right place, to be given a window of an opportunity for follow-ups. And Bruce had the speed to execute many things that many others can't, to create openings. But yes, like many of you mentioned, there's no way to prove, no way to justify, so, let's just have fun.

Liberty, I only don't agree with you that Bruce was invincible in the street.. However, I don't think your posts were immature. For your age, you did not come in screaming "f**k you all bruce lee haters" and blah blah blah, and that's commendable.

[Knuckles&Knees]

No doubt about it man.. I'm sure many of us have sparred or fought with boxers and the fight could've gone either way. That is why I don't automatically assume Bruce would lose to Ali.

However, there were instances, upon reflection, that I know for sure had I been a millisecond slower or made a mistake of not shifting backwards enough, I would've been dropped by the single punch.

What I'm trying to say is, although I believe Bruce stood a higher chance against Ali, I still think the fight could go either way. Ali's experienced, if Bruce slowed even a single bit or made one mistake, Ali would take it.

Hmm. What do you think of a fight between Tyson and Bruce? Or Sugar Ray?

The reason I don't think Ali would defeat Bruce Lee - in a *street fight* of no rules - is because of the *excellent* explosive power and speed of Bruce Lee's kicks not to mention the *rhthym* (sp?) Bruce Lee was able to execute his kicks from.

The kick I'm envisioning Bruce Lee utilizing is one to Ali's (or another opponents) knee. I see the same outcome with Mike Tyson or any boxer Bruce Lee would fight. Of course Tyson could knock out anyone with one of his punches be they boxer, Thai fighter, MMA or TMA. But then.... that's why you should try to avoid getting punched by Mike Tyson. LOL.