I am new here but . . . I am not new to the game.

[Razinghell]

My question is:

In JKD circles why do we seeming bash other arts and more mind boggling others in the JKD family?

I have been reading the posts for a while but rarely feel the need to post, much less, create a thread. The posts in the Vunak-Enigma Thread has caused me to stand up a bit.

If one of the philosophies of JKD is: "Absorb what is useful, Discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own", why, do we seem to let each other have it when we bring up different aspects of our own training experiences?

I mean, we are all different. We all have different body types, ages, culture, environments and life experiences, right? So our expression of the "JKD Philsophy" will (and should ) all be different, correct?

So to sum it up, I like to see good civil interaction about our martial arts experiences but, I am seriously tired of all the nonesensicle bickering.

Thanks for reading.

[Ghost]

IMO the problem comes down to a couple of aspects.
The nature of JKD is that its very personal as you pointed out so you get people with very different opinions by default, this causes arguments, thats human nature. They found what works for them and what they think will work so they disagree with others that dont think in a similar manner.

Also lack of competitive aspect to JKD. With no proving ground it is very easy to have a ton of techniues and arguments regarding them, if there were a sporting, ring aspect to JKD it would at least test SOME of them, obviously some stuff would be banned from the ring but you would at least get rid of the ton of crap that also exists in JKD after teacher after teacher that hasnt had to test any of it.

[Razinghell]

Thanks for the responses.

I understand that disagreements are part of life and I welcome them. I would much rather see the discussions with opinions being stated and intelligent rebutals. All to often it seems that it just boils down: "This guys sucks..." or "You don't know what you are talking about so, STFU. . ." and the like.

I look at it this way. I am a father of 4 children. I don't mind if my kids have a difference of opinion. As long as they air them in a civilized manner. As a matter of fact, I rather enjoy to the process of a good disagreement among family. It draws us closer together and we gain a view point that we may not have had before. But when it boils down to name calling, degridation and words that are intentionally made to cause pain to a sibling that where I draw the line. I would hope that I could call the people that tract along the same martial art philosophy, "Family".

This post was aiming more inwardly then outwardly. I just think that we could be using our energy more efficiently. The in-fighting is just very frusterating.

[Razinghell]

Deleted due to double post

[Guest]

In my experience JKD attracts a certain type of person. They tend to have an inquisitive, challenging mind, and I also find them to be passionate and expressive. If they weren’t people of this make up, I’m sure they would just go down a gym and kick a bag. They are attracted to JKD because of the concepts and philosophies inherent in it’s study. Perhaps for this reason you will find a greater share of debate, disagreement and personal expression on the topic. Like Mike, I don’t personally see this as a bad thing.

There are exceptions. The Vunak/Enigma thread is not a fair representation of a good JKD debate, and that is largely my fault. Having read my contributions to that thread it reflects the fact that I am not going through a good time right now, and have subsequently been ranting like a self-important prick.

Overall however, I would have become bored with this forum very quickly if everyone’s contribution consisted of “I agree with you 100%, you’re the man, we are one”. To borrow a post I made on another thread - This is a forum of debate, where people come to argue their point of view. In doing so we all offer defence, offence, pride, ego, passion, argument, sarcasm, humour....and it would be a pretty dull forum without it.

[Razinghell]

Mike and Mike, both points well taken.

I guess it is both idealistic and naive to think anything other then,

"The fact is that no matter what a great idea it may be to have constructive dialogue and civil discourse, it'll never, ever happen because for every educated, intelligent, civilized person having a civilized discussion out there, there are five idiots with neither the depth of knowledge nor the foundation of character to take part in anything constructive, let alone discussions."

But if those of us that are frustrated just stand by and have the, "That's the way it is and always will be so, chuck it." response, it will never change.

And maybe thats the point . . . It is just never going to change so I should just stop adding to the debate. Sad as it is.

With that, I may just fade back the obsurity of just reading and not posting.

[Ghost]

Mate, this is how forums are, i havent been on a forum that isnt.
People use it to let of steam, hopefully no one takes it too seriously.
If you post a serious well thought out post you will likely get a sensible reply.

[Guest]

Michael, I probably more than anyone on these forums have had bouts of the pissy whiny self-important syndrome from time to time. It's only mitigated by the fact that I know everything and I'm always right.

No, seriously though, if you're here being yourself, those kinds of things happen. People will see you have human moods and say human things. The people who come out and put up some pretend face because it's the internet are no fun because they're one-dimensional people. I'd rather talk and debate with people who get mad, upset, bitter, and sarcastic as well as who can maintain decorum and have civil discussions. The full spectrum of emotions and behaviors will always be more interesting than a select few.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry life sucks for you right now and don't feel bad about blowing off steam. Good people understand that, and have no trouble looking past it. If you find yourself "living there," then shame on you. Have a salt tablet and walk it off. In the mean time, let's find something to argue about, eh?

Thanks Mike, I appreciate that.

So then, Bruce Lee vs Mohammed Ali.......

[JKDBrando]

Boy, Men, Man, Male = alpha, competetive, conscious, compassionate

We could add several more +'s to the list but i'll stop there. Traits we posses that make us "us" and they make us wonderful in our own ways. Can't help that, just embrace.

This is just like "Intellectual JKD" flowing with the convo and redirecting energy to make an opening for your point.

I am fairly new here and to JKD or MA at that, but I learn many points just by reading through the pages and pages of verbal combat that hasn't crossed my mind yet but makes sense.

Great post. Political at that.

[Liberty]

.... Also lack of competitive aspect to JKD. With no proving ground it is very easy to have a ton of techniues and arguments regarding them, if there were a sporting, ring aspect to JKD it would at least test SOME of them, obviously some stuff would be banned from the ring but you would at least get rid of the ton of crap that also exists in JKD after teacher after teacher that hasnt had to test any of it.

Dallas Ninjitsu vs JKD

Dallas Ninjitsu in training ("Concepts" Ninjitsu?):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=olToOu9DwUc

Dallas Ninjitsu (white cloth shin guards) vs JKD - 3 fights (in order):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_tIcuWieqo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFObzABDaBk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AZuxzcGrFTI

[HERQ454]

Vids

I think the videos just show how the individual makes the techniques work,not the other way around.Neither was staying strickly to the techniques that are associated to their named 'styles'.
As was stated before,it just looked like an amateur MMA bout,and the best 'person' won their fights.

[Liberty]

Brother, I understand, and I appreciate what you're saying. I'm not saying for one instant that you should "chuck it" when it comes to things that need changing. Rather, I was trying to persuade you that as frustrating as it may be personally, perhaps the conflict and friction forums like this provide is actually beneficial in the long run. Again, it's a matter of what's good for the overall picture, and less about what's good for the frustrated individual. If argument, debate, and a dependable comparison of the educated and experienced versus the classless and inane exists, well, then that's beneficial. If you're forced by opposition to defend your views, it also forces you to clarify them in your own mind, and I think that's ultimately a good thing.

Put another way, if you fade back into obscurity, what benefit has anyone (yourself included) stood to gain? That attitude is a whole lot closer to the "it can't be changed, so chuck it" mindset you disagree with, doesn't it? Instead, I'd encourage you to participate, and to do so fully. Get emotional from time to time, and tell your peers what's on your mind. I think no group in history that ever achieved anything worth remembering did it without disagreement. Nothing worthwhile was ever easy or entirely enjoyable. But it was, after all was said and done, worthwhile.

Food for thought, anyway. I hope to see you posting in the future.

One of my personal goals is to master Lee's quote at the beginning of the O'Hara Publication's version of his private notes (published as "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do"). Where it says something along the lines of, "Into a soul free from all thoughts and emotion, not even the tiger finds room to insert it's fierce claws." One thing I find a great experiment towards that end is how I choose to react to how harshly I am, or percieve I am, harshly reacted to by others. It's a great opportunity to practice that.

I don't always succeed, but when I do, this bit of "borrowed wisdom" does help convert attacks towards me (perceived or otherwise) into practice at mastering it's intent! It's difficult. But when I succeeed, it's a nice side-effect towards getting that much closer to my goal.

I know, I know - "he's just a kid..." what do I know...


"Into a soul free from all thoughts and emotion..."

[Liberty]

Liberty, I think you're on the right track. I don't see how anyone older than you can fault you for being young. After all, being young was how they got to be old! I was very much a philosopher in my youth, and a lot of what you're saying reminds me of me. I learned something, though, that may shed some light as to why people sometimes pick on your youth. Take this any way you like, but I am only offering it with genuine regard for your desire to grow as a human being and as a martial artist.

Like I said, I tended toward philosophy a great deal when I was younger, and in much the same way you do. Other people said things that made sense to me, and I'd try to live the examples I saw as worthy or worthwhile. I got a lot of the same stuff you get for it, too. A lot of people who thought I was trying to come across as far wiser than my age should have allowed often told me they thought I was just a punk kid who was trying to sound smart. It ticked me off, because I used to really think I was onto something. My real "awakening" if you will occurred in my mid twenties just before I was living and training with Paul Vunak. It was there that I really honestly learned what it meant to live on my own and take a stand for what I believed. When I moved there, I was homeless, my mother had just died, and I had $16 to my name. I had no firends, didn't know anyone in LA, didn't have a job, nada. In other words, I had extensive time to sit and think about what it meant to be me. Somewhere in all that, I discovered why people thought I'd been so full of shit. I knew which quotes I wanted to embody, but that's all they were to me. They were someone else's knowledge, someone else's wisdom. They weren't even borrowed (the nice way to say "stolen without real understanding") wisdom, because up to that point, I hadn't even bothered to put into words the way those things really practically applied to my own life. "Be like water" is all fine and good until you find yourself stealing the granola bars out of the Continental Breakfast dish at the local Fairfield Inn. Then it just sounds like a bunch of overly philosophical nonsense. Anyway, what happened gradually was that I learned that real wisdom can't be borrowed. It has to be lived and earned. Quotes, they say, are wisdom for the ignorant and I understand why they say that. It's a way for people who have not "lived enough miles" to sound as though they know what they're talking about. Sometimes, it's not about sounding that way to others, but to ourselves. When I started living my own lessons, finding my own words, and making sense of the miles I'd lived on my own, I stopped hearing about what I punk kid I was. I didn't need anyone else's "borrowed wisdom" anymore, because I had enough of my own to find a foothold and figure out what I believed. That genuineness is readily apparent to anyone who's lived the miles for themselves, even if you don't have all the answers.

I guess all I'm trying to say there is that I figure you'll make a lot more progress toward the laudible and worthy goals you have when you can find your own words for them. It's nice on paper to work toward something Bruce said (that, incidentally, he "borrowed" from someone else), but it's not genuine. No matter how good an idea it seems like, you're working for something outside yourself. The sentiment is all you can ever understand. That's not where wisdom comes from. Instead of looking at quotes that make sense, try finding your own words. Find your own theories and questions, and then find your own answers. Then the wisdom will be yours, and I would not be surprised if you stopped hearing about what a kid you are just like I did.

Not trying to sound overly paternal or anything. I just recognize some of the same ideas in you that I "grew up" with, and I thought I'd share. Take it for whatever it's worth, or nothing at all.

Mike, how about adopting me? Just kiddiiiiiiing!

Seriously, though, I don't quote people just to do so or to sound smart. I do so because it fits and I have no problem borrowing those words from wherever. I understand what you're saying. When I first saw that clip of Lee's "be like water," what I thought of was how that, supposedly, when Enter the Dragon first began shooting, he was so scared of screwing things up and losing face (a huge issue in Chinese culture) that they had to go through his wife for several weeks, while shooting other scenes because he'd simply disappeared. Hearing, his "be like water, now you put ater into a cup, it becomes the cup..." I recall thinking, "You poor guy. Must've forgotten your cup that time around..."

I don't say that in any disrespect about the man, rather, I see he was not perfect.

This post and others are my own words, for example, my own experiences. Still, I see no reason to stop borrowing other's wisdom if it expresses what I have found to be true. Marlon Brando, argueably one of the greatest non-verbal communicators in the history of film, and his English rival, Sir Lawrence Olivier, one of the most gifted verbal communicators in the history of that medium, were both fond of quoting Shakespeare, Lee, a man of his own deep words, was nevertheless fond of quoting people like Takuan, Suzuki, et al, the Christ was fond of quoting the Old Testamant prophets, as was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

They did so not because of any lack of their own words but because it fit their inner experience. After all, after the Bible, Shakespeare, Socrates and just a few others, what really is there that's "new under the sun, " in this?

You're right. I will come to my own. I doubt though, I'll ever just express my experiences in my own words alone. Too many have said it better, earlier.

Mike, I am honored to be able share any words with you at all. To hear you out. You, to "borrow" a word that best befits my feeling, have earned the title of, "Sir."

[Liberty]

Bookmark this post, Liberty. Come back to it in ten years. You may be right that many have said it better and earlier, but I still believe you'll see the benefits of your own widsom given enough time. After all, the reason those other people said it better was because they lived it for themselves. The fact that their wisdom was lived and not borrowed is what resonates. It's also why a lot of people give you flack for what you borrow. It doesn't resonate the same way, and people can tell you're talking about things you've yet to really live. That's not a negative, mind you - it's just something you haven't had a chance to experience yet. When you do, I think you'll find a lot of what I just said to be 100% true.

In the mean time, think back on that Bruce Lee quote about emptying your cup. Would it surprise you to know that he didn't come up with that one either? Maybe that's why his life was so full of contradictions to that philosophy? He was borrowing, too. Funny. Borrowed wisdom just never means the same as earned wisdom. It's never as genuine, and it's never as useful.

While I'll agree with your first paragrapgh to some extent, at the same time I also realize that some people will also give me flack through what I've borrowed as their means of punching holes in my arguements. So that's there as well. It's not always about it not resonating the same way, but about it not resonating with others borrowed or not.

I've just submitted a post on the JKD Competitor? post. I've submitted one quote. Why? To illustrate the point I made there about simililarities. I could have left it out. I could have used my own words as I did the balance of the post. Borrowed words serve diffrent purposes - wait a minute, why didn't I just quote someone on this as well?

As for the contradictions in Lee's life "to that philosophy," I've always felt that about him myself. In his case, what doesn't resonate is not his borrowed words but his un-Taoist actions. The man, and I say this while thinking the world of him, was clearly at oddds between his Taoist goals and his materialistic urges. That is what does not resonate. In his "LOst Interview," for example, he alternates between these two worlds - that behavior is what is "Not resonating in the same way."

I know I have a great deal to learn. I look foward to it. And I appreciate your time on this with me more than words can say, borrowed or otherwise.

Still, I think you sometimes read more than is there. Some people will give me flack because they do not agree with me on some other level. It's not always because my words, borrowed or otherwise, don't resonate with experince - but because they don't resonate with theirs. Try explaining the difference between JKD's vertical punch and Wing Chun's to a Wing Chun guy, who disagrees, for example, and you're just as likely to find out their disagreement has to do with your borrowed wisdom (if you use quotes), as it does with the fact that they are simply looking at the arguement from some other angle, or from a context wherein they perceive they stand to lose something they'd rather hold on to. It's not all as cut and dried as you here make it out to be.

Again, I acknowledge I have a lot to learn. Whoops, I feel an appropriate quote coming on, let me quit while the quitins good.

[bodhisattva]

I don't know why many people feel the need to bash others. Paul Vunak draws those people more than some, though. Honestly, civil discourse is great, and I appreciate it whenever and wherever I can find it. But as a martial artist, I also appreciate the value of conflict. I don't feel it's necessary for everyone to agree, nor for everyone to be civil. Fully half of what I believe, I have discovered by virtue of opposition. In having to defend the things that were important to me, I learned what was important to me and how willing I was to sacrifice for it. In that respect, the debates and arguments here mirror martial art. In the world of fighting, you have to defend yourself against senseless attacks from uncivil people. You don't gripe about it. you train for it and act appropriately. When people discuss things civlilly here, you'll find many people doing the same. On the other hand, when people choose to get offensive, many people "fight" back.

I would submit to you that the real issue is not the arguing and bickering and cheap shots that have always existed and will probably always exist in every human endeavor. Rather, the problem lies in how personally you choose to take things. As a veteran of the the "game," I would encourage you to be happy and thankful for your opposition, for it is through our opponents and the resistance they provide that we develop our strength.

Both views have merit, for certain