JKD and Korean martial arts

[Jujujason]

Good posts Michael! I too would be perfectly content to just train and come on here when time permits to shoot the sh*t. However, I will never stand idly by when some underhanded person comes on here to insinuate that guru Dan doesn't know or is somehow lying to his students about the nature & history of jkd. For the record Happycat, I don't need to reread the Tao. I've read it several times since I first read it in 1982. Additionally, my memory is refreshed on a weekly basis when guru Dan busts out sijo Bruce's origInal notes (which make up the Tao) in class. Peace.

[Happy Cat]

You just can't have a frendly conversation with some people. Juju apears to be very easaly offended. I have great respect for your Sifu. If you would keep your mind open you might not be so easaly offended by what is said in a forum.

[Jujujason]

Whatever internet troll.

[Guest]

Good posts Michael! I too would be perfectly content to just train and come on here when time permits to shoot the sh*t. However, I will never stand idly by when some underhanded person comes on here to insinuate that guru Dan doesn't know or is somehow lying to his students about the nature & history of jkd.

Juju,

I’ve been down that road on here, The Cat and I have scratched claws many a time. Ultimately though, we don’t need to defend anything.

Over the last 35 years Guro has been subjected to the most unbelievable attack of unjust, inaccurate, malicious bullshit, by pretty much anyone and everyone who wants to make JKD their own. How has this affected him? An athlete at 71. The most popular seminar guest in the world. Teacher to over 300 renowned Instructors worldwide. Owner of a school that thousands of people fly round the world to train at each year. He is loved, respected and admired by all who know him. In my opinion, he is the greatest living martial artist on the planet.

Happy Cat, and those like him, write what they write out of an impassioned need to affirm the beliefs given to them by their teachers. I have no such need, as I’m sure you don’t, because we have Guro.

[Happy Cat]

MW, why do you keep it up? No one has attacked your "Guru." I have noticed that whenever anyone says something that you do not agree with you say it is an attack on your "Guru." Are you studying JKD or is it some kind of a cult?

I probably disagree with you on a lot of things, why do you keep dragging your "Guru" into it.

Evidently it is not sufficient for me to say I respect your teacher, you want us too kiss his feet. It reminds me a lot of religion. If I say that Jesus was born on December 25, it is not reasonable for you to say that I have offended one of your teachers, who says that he was born in January.

I am beginning to wonder about what you have been learning, more so because you are not the only one from that class who takes that attitude, i.e. Juju above.

Now I know very well that most of the "JKD" people on this web site are from your Sifu's liniage. But your attitues that you have some monopoly on the truth is sad. the more you insist on it, in fact, the further you get from the truth.

[Guest]

Join us.

The 9th Green, nine o'clock, dress smart.

[Jujujason]

Happycat, you think that just because you put the word 'sifu' or 'guru' in front of his name that you're being respectful and it makes it alright to say/type some of the things that you do, but it's not ok. When you make/type statements like, 'JKD is not a mixture of 26 different arts' or 'JKD is just boxing, wing chun and fencing' then most assuredly you are insulting the man by implying he is misinformed or a liar. Plane and simple. I most definitely can play nicely with others but choose not to when they make statements like that. It's funny how none of you come to the Inosanto Academy and make statements like that.

[Liberty]

Happycat, you think that just because you put the word 'sifu' or 'guru' in front of his name that you're being respectful and it makes it alright to say/type some of the things that you do, but it's not ok. When you make/type statements like, 'JKD is not a mixture of 26 different arts' or 'JKD is just boxing, wing chun and fencing' then most assuredly you are insulting the man by implying he is misinformed or a liar. Plane and simple. I most definitely can play nicely with others but choose not to when they make statements like that. It's funny how none of you come to the Inosanto Academy and make statements like that.

I can see various arts in Lee's Kato audition and later movie technique. Weapons: Lee was known to be an expert gun shot. He was well versed in the three section staff and nunchaku. In an old Blackbelt Magazine, Lee himself said he was teaching his son Brandon Judo. In later clips, Brandon is shown posing and excuting techniques from various Kung-Fu Styles. Yet Lee's Long Beach Sparring footage (post-Kato, Pre-Kung-Fu movies) show only what looks like a kind of Western Fencing-Boxing Principles applied with his fists and feet. No blend of other arts. Inosanto's later demo's are what show the blend/flow from art to art. This is not present in his sparring demos with Lee.

I don't believe Inosanto is lying, though. Inosanto has indicated he and Lee did not always see eye to eye (on Thai Boxing, FMA, etc). What's known is that Daniel Lee continued his Ta Chi, while (Bruce) Lee did not emphasize it in his own martial expression. Inosanto continued his FMA, while Lee did not appear to care for it in his own martial expression. Both men encouraged by Lee to continue in their path. While Lee supposedly discouraged Poteet from blending Kenpo with JKD (X vs Y).

It seems to me Inosanto has seen blend as his means of martial efficiency. That he can say that Lee studied all these other arts because Lee did. The question, however, seems, yeah, okay, but did Lee continue on that blend path given what his writings regarding the matter? Again, Inopsanto has indicated he and Lee did not always see eye to eye.

At least, this is my underrstanding. Shared here, not for the purpose of bickering, division, etc., but in hopes of exploring this further. Again, it does not really matter. We can explore it or not.

[Happy Cat]

It looks lie Liberty is becoming our historian. He has it about right.

No one has said that Inosanto is lying. Only that he has a different take on the art than some. Those with a different interpretation include, I believe, most of the Seattle school, the Oakland school, and many of Inosanto's first LA students. But that is not to say that they don't all hold him in high respect. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that they do not respect your Sifu.

But some here appear to be frightened by any view of the art which they do not share. Somehow it is a great insult to their JKD god and to all of their ancestors. Why are you so scared of a different view? Is it because you make money on your LA school cert? Do you think that anyone who holds a different view challenges the value of your cert?

I do not think you need to worry on that account. If you know your stuff you can attract students. But don't tell me you have a monopoly on the truth. Inosanto has printed up so many certs that almost every school that teaches "JKD" is teaching what you espouse. A near monopoly is not enough for you guys. You want to silence the "underground" schools which are trying to teach the art as Bruce and James taught it to them.

And by the way, do not misquote me. I never said that JKD was just boxing, Fencing and WC. JKD is an original creation by James and Bruce, it drew its primary inspiration from those three arts, but it was not a combination of them.

[Liberty]

It looks lie Liberty is becoming our historian. He has it about right.

No one has said that Inosanto is lying. Only that he has a different take on the art than some. Those with a different interpretation include, I believe, most of the Seattle school, the Oakland school, and many of Inosanto's first LA students. But that is not to say that they don't all hold him in high respect. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that they do not respect your Sifu.

But some here appear to be frightened by any view of the art which they do not share. Somehow it is a great insult to their JKD god and to all of their ancestors. Why are you so scared of a different view? Is it because you make money on your LA school cert? Do you think that anyone who holds a different view challenges the value of your cert?

I do not think you need to worry on that account. If you know your stuff you can attract students. But don't tell me you have a monopoly on the truth. Inosanto has printed up so many certs that almost every school that teaches "JKD" is teaching what you espouse. A near monopoly is not enough for you guys. You want to silence the "underground" schools which are trying to teach the art as Bruce and James taught it to them.

And by the way, do not misquote me. I never said that JKD was just boxing, Fencing and WC. JKD is an original creation by James and Bruce, it drew its primary inspiration from those three arts, but it was not a combination of them.

Happy, check out what Brewer and Wright have to say about a guy certified under Ted "Original" Wong.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=26186&page=2

[Happy Cat]

Liberty,

I do not think it is the “original” fighting ting technique that MW has a problem with. If you look at MW’s video posted on his web site (and I know you have), 85% plus of what he does is easily recognizable as an offshoot of “original” JKD.

I think what MW and others here have a problem with is my interpretation of the history and origin of the art. In my view it is more the words, and less the substance, that are creating the divide. All the more interesting that they are so violent about shouting me down. Never the less, I have little interest in discourse with those who want to shut down different points of view. And there is no point talking to people who have closed their minds.

You have shown ability to reaserch the art independently. You have also taken a lot of criticism from some here for having quoted the founders of the art. I think some of that criticism is motivated by the desire that students not look too closely at what has been said by Bruce, or James, or even Dan in the past. They just want us to follow the trend line like sheep. That was never what JKD was about. At least not until now.

Some may find the fact that you come to your own conclusions threatening. Funny how it is often the young who challenge the old. Keep up the good work. But I think as a whole, you will have more fun here without my unwanted opinion. So after answering any lingering or continuing challenge to my previous posts, it is my intention to resign from this forum. I know that a number of you will be very happy to hear this, and it is my privilege to do so. All the more so because I have learned a lot about the martial arts “community” through my interactions here.

[Liberty]

Liberty,

I do not think it is the “original” fighting ting technique that MW has a problem with. If you look at MW’s video posted on his web site (and I know you have), 85% plus of what he does is easily recognizable as an offshoot of “original” JKD.

I think what MW and others here have a problem with is my interpretation of the history and origin of the art. In my view it is more the words, and less the substance, that are creating the divide. All the more interesting that they are so violent about shouting me down. Never the less, I have little interest in discourse with those who want to shut down different points of view. And there is no point talking to people who have closed their minds.

You have shown ability to reaserch the art independently. You have also taken a lot of criticism from some here for having quoted the founders of the art. I think some of that criticism is motivated by the desire that students not look too closely at what has been said by Bruce, or James, or even Dan in the past. They just want us to follow the trend line like sheep. That was never what JKD was about. At least not until now.

Some may find the fact that you come to your own conclusions threatening. Funny how it is often the young who challenge the old. Keep up the good work. But I think as a whole, you will have more fun here without my unwanted opinion. So after answering any lingering or continuing challenge to my previous posts, it is my intention to resign from this forum. I know that a number of you will be very happy to hear this, and it is my privilege to do so. All the more so because I have learned a lot about the martial arts “community” through my interactions here.

I hope you are wrong. I have always tried to be diplomatic with those whose views I disagree with. In memeory of those who have lost their lives in some senseless war somewhere. Neighbors, friends, fathers, sons who never came back home. All because of a lack of diplomacy or becaise it had been exhausted and the matter had escalated to a level threahtening human life. The only time diplomacy must take a back seat. In the face of physical harm or worse. I guess I shall always fail to understand how anyone can claim to value one human being as having contributed to their gorwth or what have you, yet spit on another. It's one reason the world is such a screwed up place.

I sometimes think of what others must think of while visiting this site for some info on JKD or Lee or Inosanto, et al, only to find the link they follow has escaleted into hostility between human beings, etc.

I think of that because there is something decent about attempting to "abstain from the appearance of evil." Not for fear of other's opnion but for fear of contributing further to the notion it's okay to spit on fellow human beings.

Don't get me wrong. I am not a conservative (shoot first, ask questions later). Nor a liberal (walk in unarmed like a fool). I am a conservationist (show up armed; ready to talk, yet ready to defend).

A few days ago, I saw a program about cyber-bullying. About how bullies now have a place where they can continue to bully. Where no one can just walk up to them and put them in check to the relief and benifit of those unable to defend themselves. The program examined some cases of kids who took thier lives when they could not tear themselves away from their need for those bullie's acceptance. I was enraged. Livid. Who is anyone to tear down another human being! I also dedicate this post to the memory of those weaker kids and to their families in thier pain. May we learn to better communicate with one another.

Happy, I wish you well, my brother. Do not lose your sensitivity. It is your strength. One day, as a JKD instructor, it can help you to understand better others in need of your strength and guidance.

"Walk on" - Bruce Lee

"Keep flowing, keep blasting, keep the peace" - Dan Inosanto

[Liberty]

Yes, please do! And then please take to heart the message of looking at people for who they are, what they can do, and what they believe instead of judging them strictly by their lineage.

It kills me that so many people who light up the boards with messages such as "It's just a name, please don't fuss over it" are the same ones who get rip-snortin' angry when someone makes a claim to one lineage or another that turns out to be false. Am I the only one who sees that as slightly incongruent?

I do believe that people should buck the trends, and that's easily visible in my own training. Hell, you can even ask Dan Inosanto himself! He'll probably tell you I never cared for Silat, never bothered to do much intensive study into the Wing Chun forms, and only trained the Jun Fan material in class to the level that was required. There's plenty in what we do that I think people grab onto because it's just trendy, and that's not what my training is about. When everyone was clamoring to learn how to fight with a sarong, I was the guy at the back of the room wondering when I'd ever be wearing a sarong, and wondering what possible application it could have for a guy like me who's only real interest at the time was fighting.

To that end, yes, I am critical of people who get overly hung up on what people like Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto (or anyone else) have said in the past. Number one, it's because you'll never find a quote that also comes packaged with the context and the audience of that quote. Just about everything ever said was crafted to suit the audience itself, and relied heavily on the immediate context of the time and place. If you've ever been a supervisor or manager in your work, you'll realize that often, you have to tell different people different things to get them to accomplish what you're after. One person might be a naturally organized person, so you might say, "The most important thing here is to not plan and schedule too much. Just get going on some action and don't waste a lot of time in the file room." Another worker might be a wreck when it comes to organization, but they're always out trying to do more work. You might have to tell that person, "Look, I appreciate your motivation, but the most important thing I need is for you to spend some time in the file room getting organized." By themselves, those are completely contradictory quotes. In context, however, they make sense.

The danger of investing so much in the specific quotes of any person is that you run a very serious risk of taking things out of context. You run the risk of making something crucially important that was meant more for one guy on one day than for the whole world at large. THAT is why I place a premium on personal experience and organic wisdom. It may not mean any more to anyone else you talk to, but it will always be more genuine than any amount of pondering over other people's words will be.

That said, I also think Liberty is on a great track. And Happy Cat, I'd hate to see you go just because you feel like you've been ganged up on. You didn't seem like the kind of person who thrived on only being surrounded by like-minded people, so your speech about resigning from the forums is unexpected. It would be great if it was just an emotional moment, and you decided to stay.

As for the sensitivity and strength stuff? Yeah, it has a purpose. But so does realizing that this is just an internet forum and not taking things too seriously. Your call on which tool best fits the job, I suppose.

We are the Jeet Kune Do Borg. Existence as you know it is over. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. end quote

[Ghost]

Yes, please do! And then please take to heart the message of looking at people for who they are, what they can do, and what they believe instead of judging them strictly by their lineage.

It kills me that so many people who light up the boards with messages such as "It's just a name, please don't fuss over it" are the same ones who get rip-snortin' angry when someone makes a claim to one lineage or another that turns out to be false. Am I the only one who sees that as slightly incongruent?

I do believe that people should buck the trends, and that's easily visible in my own training. Hell, you can even ask Dan Inosanto himself! He'll probably tell you I never cared for Silat, never bothered to do much intensive study into the Wing Chun forms, and only trained the Jun Fan material in class to the level that was required. There's plenty in what we do that I think people grab onto because it's just trendy, and that's not what my training is about. When everyone was clamoring to learn how to fight with a sarong, I was the guy at the back of the room wondering when I'd ever be wearing a sarong, and wondering what possible application it could have for a guy like me who's only real interest at the time was fighting.

To that end, yes, I am critical of people who get overly hung up on what people like Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto (or anyone else) have said in the past. Number one, it's because you'll never find a quote that also comes packaged with the context and the audience of that quote. Just about everything ever said was crafted to suit the audience itself, and relied heavily on the immediate context of the time and place. If you've ever been a supervisor or manager in your work, you'll realize that often, you have to tell different people different things to get them to accomplish what you're after. One person might be a naturally organized person, so you might say, "The most important thing here is to not plan and schedule too much. Just get going on some action and don't waste a lot of time in the file room." Another worker might be a wreck when it comes to organization, but they're always out trying to do more work. You might have to tell that person, "Look, I appreciate your motivation, but the most important thing I need is for you to spend some time in the file room getting organized." By themselves, those are completely contradictory quotes. In context, however, they make sense.

The danger of investing so much in the specific quotes of any person is that you run a very serious risk of taking things out of context. You run the risk of making something crucially important that was meant more for one guy on one day than for the whole world at large. THAT is why I place a premium on personal experience and organic wisdom. It may not mean any more to anyone else you talk to, but it will always be more genuine than any amount of pondering over other people's words will be.

That said, I also think Liberty is on a great track. And Happy Cat, I'd hate to see you go just because you feel like you've been ganged up on. You didn't seem like the kind of person who thrived on only being surrounded by like-minded people, so your speech about resigning from the forums is unexpected. It would be great if it was just an emotional moment, and you decided to stay.

As for the sensitivity and strength stuff? Yeah, it has a purpose. But so does realizing that this is just an internet forum and not taking things too seriously. Your call on which tool best fits the job, I suppose.

excellent post especially the highlighted bit.

[Happy Cat]

MB; Thank you. Maybe a couple of weeks off will help.

Liberty; Truly excellent.