Trapping...Does it work?

[Guest]

Michael: If the focus is teaching your students how to defend themselves in the streets, isn't any example that you provide them anecdotal?

The short answer to that question is no.

10 years ago, when I first started teaching, I would say that the majority of what I taught was anecdotal. I was borrowing the wisdom and experience of other people, and passing this on. I’ve been involved in what I do for almost twenty years now, and reached a stage some time ago where what I teach is from my own experiences. I don’t talk about what someone else did on the street, or in the ring, or in the training hall, I take what is applicable from my own experiences and apply it to the individual in front of me.

I know you are a great supporter and advocate of Bruce Lee, and for the record I applaud that. One of the most important things I took from his words was “The truth in combat is different for each individual, you must research your own experiences for the truth”. What I teach is my own experiences in the world of combat, and I keep on researching as many new experiences as I can. The most important lesson I offer to any student is a strong encouragement for them to do the same.

IMO, a JKD instructor is doing his students a disservice by ignoring the totality of the art.

This is an argument that I come across all the time, and the response I give is they are not my students, I do not own them. I am very clear with everyone what it is I teach, it is my personal expression of the arts, and it is simple, functional, and honest. Its a free country, so if people like the sound of that then they come to learn from me, and get my take on things. Everyone in the JKD family has a different flavour, what Paul Vunak offers is completely different to what Erik Paulson offers and so on. This is the way it should be, JKD should never be standardised. When a student trains with me I teach them what I believe in. I don’t see the point in standing in front of anyone and pretending to be something I am not.

However, if someone comes to me with their needs and it is clear they will be better served by one of my friends, teachers or peers in the family - I refer them on. Whilst training with me many, if not all of the students I have taught, have also crosstrained with the likes of Terry Barnett, Neil Mcleod, Rick Faye, Erik Paulson etc in order to give them all the different flavours. Far from doing people a disservice, I try to encourage them to experience as much as they can from as many different sources. If totality is what they want then totality they can have, but I don’t believe totality comes from one source.

[NaSZ]

Really, I believe trapping works maybe in the 70s, but I feel in this new millenium with such great allround fighters this wont work. maybe you can Paksao or Lapsao ones, but do all those fancy things is just for the movies. If I look to MMA UFC, Cagefighters, Rio Heroes I do not believe in you can trap. You just Punch, Kick low and go to grapplin or lock. Maybe those students were good way back in the 70s, but most of them were Karate men and if I C those footage of them..I do not believe they would be any good in 2009. Just trying to think they would do K1. I dont think they would have any sucses.
They would be in big trouble. Thats the way I feel...and If I think of them do some kind of MMA (allround sport) they would be punished big time, cuz Karate got some great kicks and ok punches, but thats all. I dont say Karate is no good! but its just limited.

Or is it that I dont know what trapping is?? or is trapping not for everyone?? I try to find an answer.

BTW I would never attack Bruce Lee by doubting his philosophy...cuz it was more than trapping. Isnt it that Bruce kept devoloping himself and his JKD and at the end there wasnt any trapping left in his JKD. Maybe if he lived longer or still was with us..he would throw out the trapping cuz he would also notice that fighters getting better and more allround. If you put Bruce in the UFC...Hmmm I dont believe he would trap. Would he?

[TylerJamesMead]

i read the whole discussion before a day at school. gives me alot to think about. i was taught trapping by a pfs coach as"one reaction when his hands go up after you straightblast" i find most people will paw with their arms and bounce their head around as you blast them full force the "turn away and push" kind of move they do will stop a (my) straightblast since youre kind of square on, at least how i do it. so you "clear the obstruction" as he called it and clinch or keep blasting insead of letting him post on oyur heas while you make ellipses with your arms. thats how i see trapping anyway.

[Tant01]

I still see folks grasping at some VERY RESTRICTED ideas of exactly what "TRAPPING" really is?

If you get an attachment to move some appendage out of your way to execute a technique, it's a trap.

Vague enough? I see TRAPPING in grappling ALL the time....not just striking folks. Get out of the little box already. Trapping just IS. It happens.

[kingoftheforest]

I still see folks grasping at some VERY RESTRICTED ideas of exactly what "TRAPPING" really is?

If you get an attachment to move some appendage out of your way to execute a technique, it's a trap.

Vague enough? I see TRAPPING in grappling ALL the time....not just striking folks. Get out of the little box already. Trapping just IS. It happens.

Lol. True if your timing, footwork, and movement are in sync trapping will just happen.

Being aware of it is a good thing, knowing what to do with it even better.

But if you try to "make it happen" and it's not part of the natural movement then you're kidding yourself that you can pull it off in a real altercation.

[gungfuhero]

Granted, most people likely lack the skill and attributes to continue an effort in fighting via complex trapping; however, if your aim is to transcend the average, there is a place for such things. If your intent is to develop something that most people will be effective with, then there are the statistically strong tools. If you are willing to put the time and effort into becoming superior, the world of possibility is different.

[StickyHands]

This is my first post but I've been reading these forums for quite a while now and I decided to finally post something tangible; rather than simply state my opinions to my girlfriend who could care less about this stuff. I've seen a lot of comments on this specific thread that I agree with, specifically those arguing that complex trapping will most likely not work in a live situation.

That being said, assuming the statement that complex trapping probably work in those types of situations is indeed true, how do you reconcile this fact with your training? For example, is it better to only practice the basic entries (i.e. basic traps and basic entries from panantukan) or is it good to follow up these entries and to practice complex trapping in order to understand where a situation can go although it is not very likely..? OR, should trapping in training be scrapped all together because it probably won't work in a live situation?

Again, I'd like to reiterate that I'm asking these questions with the assumption (and i know what they say about assuming) that complex trapping will most likely not work in a live situation.

Furthermore, how do those people who claim that complex trapping or even trapping altogether doesn't work in live situations feel about how training trapping has influenced the outcome of where their martial arts are today..? Has training trapping helped you in any way or did it merely slow down your ability to become a more effective martial artist? These last two questions are directed towards those people who trained trapping extensively and found it to be ineffective.

In addition, I have been training JKD, Western and Thai Boxing for about 6 months now (I have a limited background in other martial arts and also wrestled for 8 years) and I'm asking these questions because I have been wondering how seriously I should focus on complex trapping at my school because it is part of the curriculum but I obviously have doubts about its effectiveness. I appreciate any insight. Thanks!

[Guest]

Its a good, balanced post. I hope you stick around to make more, as I'm sure does your girlfriend.

It all comes down to your motivation and need to study the martial arts, which I see breaking down into four categories:


1. Recreational study. This is the box that most regular students (I'd say over 90%) fit into. Martial arts is nothing more than a hobby, something to enjoy in their spare time, and their lifestyle means that it is extremely rare for their art to ever be tested in a live situation. So I have no problem with the study of trapping, or energy drills, or weaponry patterns etc because it suits the needs of the vast majority.

2. Self Protection. If your specific goal in the martial arts is to learn to defend yourself or your family, then the instructor has a responsibility to teach the strategies and methods that hold the highest percentage of success for the average person (and not using exceptionally talented people or one-off stories as a frame of reference). For this purpose, I would not and do not teach any trapping, it is simply surplus to requirement.

3. Competition. If your training in the martial arts is sports specific, and you are training to compete as an athlete, then everything you need should already be present in your chosen study. If you are a Boxer, Kickboxer, Grappler or MMA fighter then all of the proven, tested methods you need will already be there. The notion of adding things like trapping as some form of "self perfection" is a complete fallacy. How do you perfect an already functional method by wasting an athlete's time on training that bears no resemblance to their end goal? That's illogical and just bad instruction, period.

4. Occupation Specific. If you are a member of the Armed Forces, Police, Security, Bouncer etc then your training needs will be specific to your job. If you don't understand the needs of these people then you have no business training them, its just empty martial arts theory. I have spent time trainng with the Armed Forces and the Police Force and served my time on the doors, and I have never encountered anyone in this arena who was remotely interested in trapping. Like an athlete, they can see and recognise when a training method is specific to their role, and when it is not.


The benefit of trapping, or any other method you would put in the same category, entirely depends on the motivation and need for study. As long as an instructor understands his students needs and is being honest about meeting those needs then no problem. The issue I have, which I see a great deal in martial arts, is when an instructor wastes the time of his students by imposing his own desperate need to make an area of his art work where it doesn't belong.

[StickyHands]

Thanks for the insight Mr. Wright, I completely agree with your post and thanks for responding so quickly. I think that I train as a hobby; however, I take it very seriously and I'd like to become good enough to the point where I can teach martial arts and hopefully make a career out of it. I'm also considering competing in a few amateur fights in Western Boxing depending on how quickly I improve and how skillful I am after some training. (not sure how I feel about getting hit in the head too much though)

I've seen in previous posts that you trained trapping for several years. That being said, how do you think it effected the outcome of your martial arts? Has it helped in any way, perhaps quickening and sharpening your speed and reflexes? Or do you think it was just a waste of time and any positive gain from trapping could have come from another type of training?

Furthermore, I enjoy doing complex trapping because it's fun to play around with it and see where you can take things. Although I'm only doing martial arts as a hobby, like i said, I do take it very seriously and I want to train and develop skills that are functional and effective. So I think maybe I'll train complex trapping in the context of my classes but will take what I learn with a grain of salt. (Sorry for the digression, that was a sort of my own thought process unfolding into this post)

Again, I'd appreciate any responses and insight from anyone. Thanks again for responding quickly Mr. Wright; I have done some research into your martial arts background and have read some of what you post on this forum and I greatly respect and appreciate your opinion.

[Guest]

Thanks for your kind comments, I appreciate it.

I wouldn’t class trapping as a waste of my time because I have enjoyed it, in fact I still enjoy it. From time to time I train trapping at seminars and occasionally teach it, if it is in the right context. It would also be naive of me to think it has not in some way benefitted my attributes to a certain degree. I’m sure that my hand to eye co-ordination, line familiarization, and tactile reflexes have gained something from the training. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with your last point, which is I have simply found more functional and specific training methods that produce these results far more effectively.

As a final point on the subject I think I can sum up my thoughts like this:

Making compound or complex trapping work in a functional environment, as is frequently taught in JKD and Wing Chun, is like learning to run a marathon on your hands. Yes I believe you can do it, if you are very talented and spend many years training at the highest level. But at the end of the day I’ll just train to run the marathon on my feet, and no matter how amazing you look in the race and how big a point you prove, I’m still going to coast past you to the finishing line.

[BlakeHolloway]

I've played around with the concept of using trapping as an effective aid in self-defense for some time now, and these are my conclusions...

1. As Mr. Wright pointed out, trapping is certainly not something to teach the average person just looking for a quick self-defense fix. Trapping requires advanced timing and is not something a beginner can pick up easily and use in real heated combat.

2. When used in REAL life situations, trapping can be too complicated for even experienced practitioners. There is a MAJOR difference between going full speed in the dojo, and fighting for your life in a dark alley. Do not confuse the two.

3. If you insist on using trapping, it is best used only in your pre-emptive strike.

Let me explain that last one...

In my system, we use two entry methods to get into the trapping range, which is our preferred range of combat. The first of these is the psychological method, which is a bit much for me to get into right here. If you are interested in it, you can check out my site.

More importantly, is the second method. Pre-emptive striking. As the name implies, we use a pre-emptive strike to enter into the trapping range. A typical technique would be an eye flick, which is nothing more than a quick flick with your fingers at your opponents eyes.

Let's use that eye flick for our example of effective trapping.

Let's say we do an eye flick with our right hand, but it gets blocked by the opponents arm. Now some people would pull back and just try the strike again later. However I teach that once you decide to attack, you do not stop until you are ready to stop completely. So in order to continue attacking, we have two choices. We could change the height of the attack, and follow up with a kick to the groin, OR we could use trapping. In this case, with your right hand extended in the eye flick motion, you would simply use your left hand to smack your attackers arm down, and immediately follow up with another eye flick with your right hand.

So the whole motion would be Right Eye Flick -> Left Hand traps the blocking arm -> Right hand circles back around for another eye flick.

It is important that you continue forward momentum as you do this so that you will get your opponent off balance and overwhelm them.

In my opinion, this is one of the few situations where trapping is both effective and useful on the street. More advanced trapping techniques are simply too complicated for real life fights...

I hope that all makes sense. I'm used to demonstrating and teaching in person, but I tried to describe it the best I can.

Cheers,
-Blake

[Tant01]

I think too many folks try to make "trapping" too complex. Lets simplify...

[minhthanh77]

I think there some truth to what you are saying, however I still think trapping works only against specific structures. Mainly classical structures. The simultaneous parry and hit is possible against many structures.

Though you make a fair point about delusional training.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

I've been on the line for this one for quite some time. I finally have done enough work to come to my own conclusion. "Trapping" the way most TMA's(including JKD) teach it, is time that could be spent learning and developing practical skills. If you enjoy these things,by all means do them.However, I do not see any attributes that couldn't be trained in a more functional way...

A "trap" may work well against a certain type of structure,but a double leg or a Thai Clinch would probably work better....

[fire cobra]

And its possible to stop a attempted clinch with a trap or a slap or call it what you will and make a opening for a hit,Thais use it all the time ain high level competition,so as usual everything can be usefull even if you dont use it that often.