TaeKwonDo

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

WTF style TKD IMO is a good sport to get into at a young age prior to Kickboxing or Muay Thai when you are a little older.

[Gambino]

my personal opinion, for what its worth(which prolly aint much), is that it depends on the fighter more than the style... a punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick... it all depends on the person executing the move. the main problem i see with tkd is that its presented more as a sport fight than an actual "art", or style. its been commercialized like wwf and wcw. take a short, quick fighter whos more geared to close range fighting, like myself, who has studied wing tsun for a while... against the local watered down tkd poster child whos only goal in life is to plant his foot firmly against the side of my head ~*for POINTS*~... the majority of what i do is with my hands, and most of the footwork is stop~kicks. STOP~kicks. now, if i can effectivly block his kicks and get inside his range, unless hes a jr. bruce lee, hes pretty much screwed...all of the tkd ive seen has been very watered down. dont get me wrong, im not talking down on the style itself, but the way its being presented, and the schools who hand out belts like kandy. when it really comes down to the grind in a real world situation, there is no "style", no forms, just offensive and defensive tactics for survival.

[sidder]

tkd = total korean dung

Hey guys! Check out the "TKDer First Muay Thai class" thread in the underground forum.

[mushinmaster]

"TKD = Total Korean Dung"
- sidder

Not so. Although I can't stand being in a TKD dojang nowadays, it helped me a lot as a kid.

1. It gave me an environment where i could live out my martial arts fantasies without hurting anyone or myself

2. It took up a lot of my time, keeping me out of trouble.

3. My dojang, in particular, exposed me to many different techniques that were just watered down.

4. Now I just add a little scotch and they're great!

5. I believe that TKD is the reason my Thai kicks are as powerful as they are. I just adopted the thai techniques, and Wham! You don't even want to catch one of those through the pads.

6. Same thing for leg strength

7. TKD got me to learn how to and how to not effectivly use my legs. We did mainly free sparring in my school, and I got to experiment a lot, and got experimented on a lot.

[sidder]

I don't know, man. So many bad habits to undo if you want to make tkd effective:

1. Must go from kicking with leg to kicking from whole body (ex tkders who now do muay thai will know what I mean)
2. use the shin instead of the foot
3. condition the shins, the forearms, and the rest of the body for that matter
4. develop full-contact, continuous boxing skills
5. get rid of those faggy vests

[mushinmaster]

getting rid of bad habits

I had no trouble learning to kick and punch using my whole body, instead of just my limbs - well the punch took a couple months, but I picked up the kick, shin and instep and all, after watching my instructor and listening to him. Ask anyone in that class; my kicking is both extremly effective and very powerful.

I already sought to condition my limbs because I read a lot of martial arts books in which this conditioning was described and its benefits listed. I punch everything bare-knuckle, from the bag and the pads to the makiarwa. I conditioned my shins to take a beating in a few months of intense training (my left still needs work).

The AAU outlawed the faggy vests in competitions a couple of years ago, for the point style sparring my school enforced. We didn't even wear them anyway. We only sparred without continuation in tournaments.

To redevelop my "paper" point sparring techniques to the powerful techniques of Muay Thai and other full-contact sports, I condidioned on the bag daily. I also took boxing classes. From boxing and my readings of other arts I employed more effective defensive manuevers into my sparring while I was still in Tae Kwon Do. I used the "stop-hit," the slip, bob and weave, duck, parries, and simple footwork (the burst, sidestepping) - which I was never in Tae Kwon Do, and combining all the above with simultaneous counters.

Due to excessive reading and experimentation, I found the transition to be easy - and I LOVE "playing hard" - that's the one thing that started to turn me off from TKD - How do you know if it works if you don't really follow through?

Conditioning was a slight problem at first, as it was almost non-existant in my school. I was in decent shape when I started, due to my school sports (basketball and track), and my personal running routine. I quickly developed the muscular endurace required to endure the classes with excess energy through driving myself on my own - with the jump rope, running and sprinting, bag workout, calisthentics - hindu pushups, etc, shadow boxing, and lots of weigth lifting.

For me, at least, I had little trouble converting my "bad habits" to "good habits" - it just required hard work and diligent practice. I definatly owe a lot to learning TKD as a kid - I can spot a BS martial artist from a mile away.

Remember that this is the account of a kid who started TKD at age 6, and "converted" to hybrid martial arts at age 16. It might be a whole different story for people who spent more time in TKD - these ten years weren't hard to alter.

[mushinmaster]

tkd as a kid

sidder: i guess you had the same experience as I did.

When I first started experimenting with other arts, I had the same opinion. After speaking with many parents of children that take TKD, especially those with ADD or other disorders, I realized how much it helped them mature.

There was one girl who started at age 4. She wouldn't even be in a regular class - test in front of a room of people, out of the question. Now she's six, and she did all her stuff in front of people, and is a very sociable young lady, thanks to her experiences in TKD. Although she may not be learning the most effective martial art, most would argue one of the least effective, she is still learning a lot of important life skills, and is being instilled with ancient martial values which have shapped the morals of the leaders of society for centuries.
They have a great time too!

[sidder]

For those purposes, and particularly for chicks, perhaps the benefits outweigh the detriments

[mushinmaster]

For children, I can give you more examples than you'd want to hear, of both boys and girls. They don't understand the difference between Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, or MMA. Its all karotty to them - but what they can learn at that age, can change their life - it really affected mine.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Karotty! That's hilarious.... at least I thought so.

I don't think that TKD is all that bad. The techniques are mostly based off of the common moves found throughout most martial arts. I think that the major drawback is the philosophy that surrounds TKD.

As a youngster I studied a little DSD. Unfortunately, I didn't learn much as I wasn't allowed to stick with it for very long....

However, from what I remember and what I have studied in the last several years is that the philosophy of TKD may very well get you killed against an experienced/ determined antagonist.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but high kicks are highly impractical for self-defense!? Teaching students to spin and jump during a strike is dangerous. Certainly, those who have invested quite a lot of time have perfected the techniques look really impressive. Jumping and shouting and breaking of boards and the ability to do the splits while standing is truly impressive. But all this isn't worth much when you're butt is on the line.

I think if they approached TKD with an attitude that paralleled JKD or BJJ they really might have something worth teaching/learning. Same with traditional karate, kenpo, you name it. The techniques are all basically the same, it's the philosophies that are truly different.

As grand master Ed Parker said, "it's not who's right, but who's left that matters".... no one who does not train full contact randori in high stress situations is truly prepared to defend themselves.

My training partner is a Kenpo Black Belt, with 11 years experience. One of our newer students is a Brown 3 in TKD with about 7 years training (he outranks me in belt levels). Before these guys started training with me they had never done full contact randori.

Kumi Uchi: Full contact, pads of your choice, plus headgear, mouthpiece, cup. Anything goes with the exception of strikes to the knee and throat, or eyes. Grappling, striking, escape and contain. This is where you really find out what works and what doesn't. We practice all strikes, grappling, transportation and communication (avoidance and evasion). Heck, we even throw in two and three to one scenarios. No judges, no points, no contest. Constantly seeking to improve and innovate.

We don't believe that we are superior to anyone. But we know that we can defend ourselves when it hits the fan.

Now, back to TKD, it is great for kids. It builds their self esteem and gives them confidence, espirit de corps, etc, etc.... However, when it comes to self defense, it reminds of the alternative education methods that are prevalant in the US today. Kids being taught that they are unique and special and are smart even though they can't add or subtract, read or write passable English, and have incredibly pathetic work ethics (i.e. somebody owes me something). This is all fine and good, right up to the point where reality hits.

I think I'll pass on the mcdojo for my kids. Maybe a little boxing, wrestling or judo instead....

SZ ad Nauseum

[Ern-Dog]

lol at this whole argument

[mushinmaster]

Szczepankiewicz:

I agree completly that TKD shouldn't be studied by serious adult students - that has been proven time and time again.

I think that letting kids live out their fantasies of the martial arts, and "karotty" is a good lesson - especially when reality hits - that's the way it was for me.

I do support boxing, wrestling, and judo as great alternatives to TKD for kids - I unfortunatly didn't have those advantages. When I was in junior high school, the consensus was that any man who'd want to roll around on a mat with another sweaty man was gay - so I played basketball. I now realize that was one of the worst decisions in my life. Today, there exist no good boxing gyms within an hour drive of my house. The only judo school in my area very closly resembles the old dojang - and I won't ever set foot in a school like that again.

I don't think I will ever seduce my children with Tae Kwon Do, but it did work well with me. And I 100% agree on the false sense of security, which, unfortunatly, is present in almost every individual in the dojang I went to, even the teenagers and adults who work out there - well, we can't really call it working out, or training, but "do martial arts" there. It is especially gross with the children, and extremly unfortunate for the females.

I won't even step into my old dojang - I just can't watch it anymore.

I never completly realized the false sense of security present, but always sensed it. Unfortunatly for me, because I love to argue, I think you are right, Szczepankiewicz. I didn't think sidder's "total korean dung" theory was really based on facts, but I stand corrected.

I am enlightened, master. Thank you for the lesson.

I wish I could train like you do, but for now, I'll have to be content with Muay Thai and some wrestling. I do have big plans for the future, though.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Well, we will just have to find something else to argue about!

I think Muay Thai and wrestling are good to train in. Both give you full contact (in their respective realms) and are very good workouts.

Heck, if your in good shape and have decent, reliable skills, you are probably in a better situation for defending yourself that are most people.

Numma wan self-defense tip: the craziest guy in the room is usually the one left to his own devices....

Works well for door to door salesmen, hari krishnas, jehovah's witness', girl scouts, trick-or-treaters etc, etc.

If you go to jail and get put in a common cell, drink from the urnial. No one will want to be anywhere near you.
And what could possibly be better self defense than everyone leaving you alone???

Peace,

SZ

[mushinmaster]

Yeah. def.

The ultimate self-defense is avoidance - when avoidance fails,
"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill (Sun Tzu)."

[Halloween Jack]

I don't know exactly what WTF TKD is like, since they're an exclusive organization (to enter a WTF tournament, you must be connected to a WTF-affiliated school).

In my neck of the woods, most karate and TKD tournaments are kind of strange concerning the level of contact. For below-black-belt and youth's sparring, it's strictly light-contact. In the adult black-belt levels, however, they usually go full-out, and face/groin hits often slip by.