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The question has been asked before, I'm sure, but do you think internal martial arts are effective on the street? Most people have told me that internal martial arts, especially tai chi and ba gua/baguazhang/pa kua are very effective, but take longer to learn than external martial arts because the internal martial arts place more emphasis on perfecting technique. Assuming I study hard under a good instructor (one that teaches combat IMAs, not health exercises, and isn't hung up on mystical B.S.), can internal martial arts be just as practical and effective as boxing, muay thai, BJJ, or any other art?
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IMA
Funny, I never paid any attention to such things before(I'm an FMAist to the bone/stick)in regards to my "cultural" curiosity of style. But the other day I read that there were 3 internal MA. Two that were mentioned in previous post and i-hsig(is that it?)? I think that is the one, but this one is supposed to be hard crisp movements of the 3. Does any one practicing Internal MArtial Arts, know what I'm talking about?
Thanks,
Chad W. Getz
Stickfighting Hawaii
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Ah Ha - My sort of thread!
You are talking about Hsing I.
Basically there are three internal martial arts systems.
Ba Gua chang
Tai chi chuan
And Hsing I chuan
As well as many that are a mix of those three and some that are a mix between internal and external such as Pak mai.
I have personally used Tai chi and Ba gua in combat working as a doorman. They DO work no matter what anyone else in this forum might lead you to believe!
I will outline what the three entail for you.
Hsing I chuan is considered to be the IMA most directly associated with fighting from the outset. The movements or this style are the most linear of the three and its speciality is EXTREMELY powerful striking that disables opponents in single blows. This style sets you up as you attack and then demolishes you with direct strikes all over the body.
Tai Chi Chuan has alot of health benifits but these are a result of the MA forms and the internal alignment that are built into them. Again this is a MARTIAL ART. This style can be compared to a wave in some respects, the opponent attacks and you let their energy past, and then crash against them with a fist, foot, shoulder, elbow etc. The speciality of one of the principles is the ability to redirect any conceivable attack over or around the body. I have use this many times.
Ba Gua Chang uses a seemless mix of the two while spiralling and circling the opponent. If you think about arts such as boxing, MT, karate, TKD etc. they all assume that the opponent is infront of you. Ba gua practitioners specialise in disappearing from the opponents fighting line as they attack. If someone throws a front kick the ba gua man circles past him attacking his head, side and spine as he goes. This could be argued as the most complicated of the three but some will disagree.
All three arts involve JuJutsu style techniques known as Chin na. And involve positions that deal with grounded opponents etc.
They are all very applicable as street systems. I know because i have used them. The main problem that you will face is finding a good teacher. they are very very very few and far between. Most of these teachers will be able to show you the supreme fighting abilities of these arts.
www.energyarts.com - in the fighting section under Ba gua is a display of ba gua fighting. take a look. The yang tai chi fighting video will definatley open your eyes to what Tai chi looks like in combat too!!!
www.hsing-i.com - here are some mpegs here too. they are rehersed to show specific techniques but this guy has won ALOT of full contact stuff in china.
If you can find a good teacher and dedicate a good amount of time to your training I train 6 days a week, morning and evening. you should be able to acheive excellent fighting ability within 3 years.
Hope this helps
cheers
ChrisComment
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Systema also has ALOT of similarities to Tai chi and ba gua (from what iv heard, from the little bit of research iv done, as well as some of chris's comments)
it incorporates health methods, utilizes the "wave" movement (though im not sure if it does in the same way as tai chi).
It uses energy work, redirection. Incorporates knowledge of human anatomy. in my opinion very effective for mass attack ( "a russian tradition"). works from contact (for example a punch hits you and you work with it...) avoidence work (dodging).
Everything we do 1v1 we do with multiple attackers (theres a little more to multiple attackers of course), for example we would do something 1v1 then try it 2v1.
We learn some crowd work. (in a large crowd surrounding you)
it incorporates proper breathing practices, as well as pain managment stuff.
there is some bodyguarding stuff (though that is not part of the regular class curriculem)
we practice defending attacks without moving from your original possition (to spice things up, and also if your in a hallway ect.)
there is knife work.
we try everything in uncomfortable possitions
we do use mats for begginers, but all ground work is also done on a concrete floor(with a thin carpet)
there is no "ready stance"...
it has gun defence techniques (though not usualy part of regular curriculem)
its a "fast learn" system, in about a year you can become a versitile fighter, and in around 3 months become a competant one. (it does depend on how many classes per week you go.)Comment
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Thanks for your help, Chris. If you're interested, I posted a similar question on the www.about.com forum. I have some more questions:
1. If I were to learn only one internal art at a time, from a combat perspective, should I learn hsing-i, ba gua, or tai chi chuan first, or does it really matter? You seem to think that ba gua is the most complex of the three, but I have heard and read that many people think tai chi is more complicated, so they teach hsing-i, then ba gua, then tai chi . . . not really sure, since I don't have any experience in the internal arts.
2. Are any of the tai chi styles (Yang, Chen, Wu, and any others) more effective for fighting than the others?
3. Are internal martial arts good for relatively small people? I've heard that they are good for smaller people because they kind of work independently of gross muscle strength.
4. Do any of the internal arts do much kicking? Some people have told me that they don't include much kicking because the legs are used mostly for footwork.
5. Are the internal martial arts as effective for fighting as styles like muay thai and BJJ?Comment
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Oh yeah, and another thing: Are Wong Kiew Kit and B.K. Frantzis reputable? They both seem to be well-known among internal artists, but some IMA students have told me that they aren't really held in high regard in the IMA community.Comment
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This is really down to your personal choice. I have outlined what the three entail, look at that and decide which you prefer.1. If I were to learn only one internal art at a time, from a combat perspective, should I learn hsing-i, ba gua, or tai chi chuan first, or does it really matter? You seem to think that ba gua is the most complex of the three, but I have heard and read that many people think tai chi is more complicated, so they teach hsing-i, then ba gua, then tai chi . . . not really sure, since I don't have any experience in the internal arts.
One thing though, most really high level teachers can teach all three but they are few and far between, There are alot of people out there claiming that they teach all three but only know the basics.
They are very destinct arts with different approches. People are normally taught one to a very high level before they move onto the others, then you already have many alignments etc as some are duplicated accross the three.
Tai chi is a very complicated art as are all three, as to which you find harder, this is personal choice. Most people believe that the levels go hsing i, tai chi, ba gua as far as the difficulty is concerned, Tai chi people, hsing I people and Bagua people will all argue their own case.
Well all are quite equal in terms of fighting, but!!Are any of the tai chi styles (Yang, Chen, Wu, and any others) more effective for fighting than the others?
Yang is mainly practiced as a health method - most teachers do this.
Wu is a bit of both i think - but i have not trained in this.
Chen is the most widley practiced martial form.
Sun is an amalgimation form, the founder was an expert in BaGua.
They are excellent for small people, i myself am only 5.9 and can deal with much much larger opponents.Are internal martial arts good for relatively small people? I've heard that they are good for smaller people because they kind of work independently of gross muscle strength.
They all have kicking techniques, mainly low to the legs and hips.Do any of the internal arts do much kicking? Some people have told me that they don't include much kicking because the legs are used mostly for footwork.
Inexperienced people will say that they dont. This is infact not the case, the footwork in ba gua is used to kick and stomp the legs, as well as kicking to all levels including the face.
Tai chi has a very rooted stance but has an 'empty leg' (a leg bearing 30 - 0 % of your weight) in most postures, when there is an empty leg this can be employed for kicking.
Hsing I uses a method called seven star, which basically runs the opponent over by stamping into his knees etc as well as kicking the hip joints.
that is a dangerous question to ask in a forum such as this!!!Are the internal martial arts as effective for fighting as styles like muay thai and BJJ?
But in my experience, both in fighting these styles and training in them. The internal arts defeat them thoroughly. (this is my experience - i respect both of those arts).
Wong kiew kit - i dont know about - i understand that he is a master in Shaolin Kung Fu so his tai chi isn't too true to what tai chi is about.Are Wong Kiew Kit and B.K. Frantzis reputable? They both seem to be well-known among internal artists, but some IMA students have told me that they aren't really held in high regard in the IMA community.
B.K. Frantzis is the real deal as far as i am aware - he has trained under some of the best masters in the east and is a llineage holder in Wu Tai Chi, Hsing I and Ba Gua. I think the main problem people have with him is that his is quite arrogant sometimes and has quite a slick organisation that makes lots of cash. Neither of these things take anything from his knowledge of skill both of which are VERY high.
Hope this all helps.
Cheers
chrisComment
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To meditate is fine, but this whole Chi thing im not sure about. To sit around and practice harnessing your chi for 50 years then maybe being able to go and Death touch or Dim muk someone sounds kindof hooky to me. I think that actively practicing Tai Chi for balance is good, but the other stuff is questionable. I think too many guys watch too many old Jet li moviesComment
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JIMI
Sorry must have missed something here, I don think that i have mentioned chi or meditation once??
We are talking about Martial arts here - what are you talking about?
In china Tai chi chuan translates as - supreme ultimate fist - it is a martial art, pure and simple. It teaches you high level fighting techniques. Please dont fall into the trap of seeing people doing forms slowly and thinking that this is what the art is about. It is faster that the majority of martial arts out there. becuase it trains natural reflex responces and not learned reflex responces.
Ok. i have said many times that i do not wish to change OPINIONS they are of no concern to me, just to inform facts.I think that actively practicing Tai Chi for balance is good, but the other stuff is questionable.
I have used Tai chi and internal martial arts in REAL combat many times both in and out of the street. What you believe is fine, what is the case is something else. I have challanged and beaten practitioners from many styles (dismiss that comment if you want, i cant prove it here). Most of which would be first choice to your average thug that thinks UFC is real and not a combat sport!
Thanks
ChrisComment
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You really have to wonder
Have any of you seen these Internal Arts and Chi Force in action??
Sometimes I wonder a lot of these mysticisms are real or juts a load of crap. How do I define mysticism? Anything that makes you go “Ooooh, ahhhhh, wooooow!” I think you guys get the gist of what I mean.
I have read different accounts about “Chakras” and how they are energy gateways to the body and can be used for healing. Then there are all these mystic ideas surrounding “Chi” and how someone can use their Chi to throw a 250 pound man 10 feet into the air, and etc……
I just wonder how much of this stuff is served to us because we (In the West) just eat up anything that has to with mysticism, secret energy flows, and Taoist philosophy.
This post is not meant to be antagonistic. I am juts proposing a question. If any of you have first hand experience (Chris Davis maybe?), then I’d love to hear about it.
I am just trying to figure out how much of this stuff is real and how much of it is served to us to make a buck.
I did meet one guy who claimed he took some classes with this guy in Costa Mesa (Near Los Angeles) who did all sort of freaky stuff that you only read about. He used his Chi to conduct almost superhuman feats. Any of you know of this guy?
I’ll try to find his website once again…….
Bruce_FanComment
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A close personal friend of my family used to be a bouncer for several years, working different clubs in Queens,NY.He told me of one time when he was working that he witnessed a brawl between three guys that were drinking in the bar and his bouncer/buddy who was also working that night.Tim said his buddy had practiced Tai Chi for something like 15+ years and it was the only "style" the guy trained in.Anyway, Tim said once these guys initiated, his friend just cut loose on these three and began tossing them around like they were paperweights.He said it looked a lot like the movements utilized in aikido and they were executed with such speed that the guy looked like a flurry of activity you could barely follow.This guy hurt them pretty badly as the fight occured in relatively small space.He was throwing the guys so that they hit the wall and the bar.The three guys left in an ambulance and Tim's friend left in a squad car.I've never known Tim to lie so I believe him when he says that Tai Chi is effective.But, that's just my opinion based on what I've been told, so who knows.Comment
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Its a funny thing with all those "mystical" powers used by many internal martial arts (chi, energy work ect.)
I never realy beleaved in them at first....
The problem is when you see it right infront of your eyes, and hear what people have to say, people who are not selling anything, people who dont care if YOU think its real because they just had it done on them.
I got a tape "beyond the physical" wich is a brief intro to the
psychic energy aspect of my martial art. I was kind of hoping for some hocus pocus magical stuff.......it turned out to be pretty straight forward, there were some intresting things shown, but it wasn't as hard to accept as i thought it would be.
Its funny what people allow themselves to beleave or not to beleave.
I think some of the reason Chi and stuff is hard for people to acept is the way that it has been marketed through the media, and movies, and the lack of "reasonable" explanations for people who havn't seen it or experience themselves.
There are still ALOT of things i refuse to beleave in.
Half the things that are "scientificaly" proven may be found to be wrong in 50 years....just look at human history and the "crazy" things wich people have accepted as the norm, or thought were un-true.
just my thoughts on the subject of Chi, energy work ect.Comment
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hi guys,
The main aspect of the internal arts that make them excellent fighting methods are the fighting angles and body alignments, the theories of force and how to manipluate force vectors to increase throw power and strike power.
the chi aspect i personally believe in, but i am very aware of why people do not. there have been several studies into chi, both in the US and china. One messured the electrical fields given off by normal people and by chi gung masters, the chi gung masters electrical fields where up to 100 times stronger while practicing chi gung. the scientist said that he though this was a by product of Chi and not chi itself. His results are accepted by the scientific community.
Accupuncture deals exclussivly with chi and is very very effective, it is excepted by most doctors as an effective remedy for many ailments.
You will also find that most masters of internal martial arts are able to asily defeat 20 year olds into their 80's.
This is due to there high vitality and health that is a by product of their practice. Chi? who knows.
someone said that chi is very much like love, if you feel it you dont have to have it described to you, and if you try to describe it, it is impossible to put accross in words. Therefor i wont try!
To be honest with you. The vast majority of the information you will get on chi and Fa Jing etc is just sh!t. This is the unfortunate situation that has arrisen from people wanting the ability of masters in a short time. People see a traditional master throwing someone accross a room, then have it done on them and then try to copy it, this is not chi or jing or anything other than fraudulent rubbish.I just wonder how much of this stuff is served to us because we (In the West) just eat up anything that has to with mysticism, secret energy flows, and Taoist philosophy
I dont really want to go on about what i have done, blah blah blah. take a look at Mateo 's post. This kinda illustrates nicely what internal arts are like in combat.If any of you have first hand experience (Chris Davis maybe?), then I’d love to hear about it
Indeed!!Half the things that are "scientificaly" proven may be found to be wrong in 50 years....just look at human history and the "crazy" things wich people have accepted as the norm, or thought were un-true.
Cheers
ChrisComment
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There is a lot of stuff in the world like witchcraft mystical stories legends etc. chi is counted as one of them(I am not saying chi is a bullshit theory and so on just saying many peoples opinion) Tai chi as a martial art alone without the chi is effective, yes i have seen it in use, but to me there wasnt anythign mystical or strange about it the guy new moves which were allowed him to throw his opponents much like aikido or judo. I my self keep an open mind I am not sayign chi is all crap or that there is a mystic force which allows to do crazy stuff, but I dont automatically assume its crap if someoen tells me about it. Acupunctior I had done to me when i broke my back( I didnt crack the bone the disks got compressed between the bones) so to heal it faster i had acupuncture done to me personally i dont see how this is connected to chi. I would really liek to know though? As far as I know acupuncture is a chinese mthode of knowing points on the body that directly realate to other point through the nervous system. Is this correct?
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